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Old October 5, 2001, 08:38 PM   #1
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Box cutter Scenario

Ok, here goes...

Let's say that you are at a train station. The National Guard folks have been charged with taking over security, but it's only a few days into the program and not everyone is clear on their duties.

You walk by an average looking man of dark hair and features..he is carrying a jacket over his arm and it's 90 degrees with high humidity here in soCal. You accidentally bump his arm and something clatters on the floor.

Looks like a "Box cutter."

You have your CCW, and cell see a soldier, carrying a side arm, You take a couple steps towards the soldier and wave to get his attention.

The stranger reaches down and snatches up the razor, pushing the blade forward, and moves towards you in a threatening manner.

He is 10 feet away from you....what do you do?
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Old October 5, 2001, 11:45 PM   #2
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If somebody ever comes at me with something like a box cutter I think I would just have to bitch slap him.
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Old October 6, 2001, 12:46 AM   #3
Fred Hansen
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I agree with ahenry. I think I wouldn't be able to do anything other than slap him to death. Where I come from you just don't waste bullets on maggots like that.

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"This started out as a documentary on gun violence in America, but the largest mass murder in our history was just committed -- without the use of a single gun! Not a single bullet fired! No bomb was set off, no missile was fired, no weapon (i.e., a device that was solely and specifically manufactured to kill humans) was used. A boxcutter! -- I can't stop thinking about this. A thousand gun control laws would not have prevented this massacre. What am I doing?"

Michael Moore
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Old October 6, 2001, 01:19 PM   #4
David Scott
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Increase the distance, aim for center of mass, and order him to drop the weapon. If he complies, turn him over to security. If not, turn him over to the cororner. End of story.
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Old October 6, 2001, 02:34 PM   #5
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If he is 10 feet away and armed with an edged weapon, you will not get your handgun out unless you step into him and use some type of strike or control technique to buy you some distance. It has been shown that an average person can cover 21 feet and deliver a lethal wound in 1.5 seconds. How long does it take the average person to draw from an exposed holster? Now add the fact that the handgun is concealed. If you try to back pedal, the attacker can come forward 4 times faster than you can move in reverse. At this distance, step in, stun the attacker, move off the attackers center line, create distance, then pull your handgun and revoke his birth certificate.
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Old October 6, 2001, 04:42 PM   #6
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I wholeheartedly second David Scott's response.
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Old October 6, 2001, 05:31 PM   #7
Jeff White
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At 10 feet, I'm simultaniously moving backwards diagonally and beiginning my draw. My weak hand is up in a defensive position and I'm ordering him to stop and drop the knife. If he charges at that point, I deflect his charge with my weak hand and shoot from the retention position. If he hesitates, I complete my draw, aim center of mass and again order him to drop the knife and raise his hands. As David Scott said, at that point he either complies and gets turned over to the authorities of he is shot as many times as necessary until ghe stops advancing with the knife.

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Old October 6, 2001, 07:22 PM   #8
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Bad thinking here. Run! If you pull your weapon and shoot, you will both die in a hail of M-9 bullets before your friendly guardsmen figure the whole thing out.
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Old October 6, 2001, 08:15 PM   #9
WR Olsen
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Box Cutter

Navy joe has it right. The best ting to do is RUN. He is too close, can move faster than you and is focused. You will be trying to decide what to do (the surprise factor) and how to get your weapon out while he is filletng you.

Let the Guard and/or security handle the problem. After all you want to go home to your family, don't you?
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Old October 6, 2001, 10:29 PM   #10
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Bring my walking stick/cane up in a beat against the hand holding the box cutter and continue the engagement with a firm thrust into the base of the critters throat.

Step on the box cutter and/or hand of the critter as he gasps for air and signal the soldier.

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Old October 6, 2001, 11:43 PM   #11
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I agree with Navy Joe. The armed soldier will see you shooting someone and just try to neautralize everyone, no matter what the circumstance or cost.
Old October 6, 2001, 11:57 PM   #12
Jeff White
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10 feet is too close to run.....

At ten feet the attacker is too close for you to run from, some kind of defensive response will be required even if it only slows his attack long enough for you to turn and run.

The Guardsman on duty on the platform is most likely carrying his sidearm in condition 3; if he even has a magazine in it all. Any response you make, either shooting your assailant or a physical altercation will be long overwith before he can remove his M9 from the flapped M12 holster, charge his weapon (from whatever state of readiness he has it in) and either assist you or shoot you both in a wild series of gunshots.

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Old October 7, 2001, 01:40 AM   #13
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Good responses all around.

Might suggest some of you veirfy something first. Have someone stand about 10 feet in front of you. Make sure you have thoroughly emptied your weapon. Check again, then use your CCW holster and dress as you normally do when you carry. Have person hold hand out in front of them as if with a bladed weapon...or if you wish with a washable marker. Go at full speed. They "mark" you and you draw. Think it's just a good idea to see if you're drawing fast enough.

For those of you that running is a first response, please try that.

I think it is just a good idea to make sure all is as you say, then you have truly "mastered" your technique.

I don't think there is a right or wrong is your life so your response is as you believe and train in.

My training has me responding by moving in and to the side of the BG (doing a yin to his yang move), then keep on moving past him and keep on running. Then when I have enough distance I either draw or keep on running.

Thanks for your insight....especially about the soldier... unfortunately for them, they are in condition three.? or four?..weapon empty, magazine outside of weapon.

I agree, military training is different from LEO training. So I wouldn't want to be nearby or mistaken for a BG and get caught in a hail of bullets.
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Old October 7, 2001, 11:58 AM   #14
Jeff White
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Train with a charging target....

I made a charging target for my dept. to train live fire with. I started with an old lawn mower deck (the adjustable wheels work great on varying terrain). I drilled a hole in the front and mounted an eyebolt. Then I built legs from 1 1/2" PVC and mounted them to the deck. I covered these with an old pair of jeans. I built a frame of PVC upwards on the sides to attach a "Tactical Ted" torso to. Attached PVC arms to the framework, rigging one so that it would swivel. Duct taped an old knife to the hand of the swiveling arm and mounted another eyebolt to the back of the arm. Put an old shirt on over "Ted" and ran a piece of 550 cord from the eyebolt on the arm to the rope tied to the eyebolt on the mower deck.

To set it up, place "Ted" on a place on your range where you can safely shoot at somewhat of an angle. Take the rope you pull "Ted" with and run it straight back. Put a stake in the ground and attach a snap link to it. Use this to change direction of the rope.

We started with the officer 21 feet away from "Ted" and gave him a scenario where he had to verbally engage "Ted". Another officer spoke as "Ted". When the situation got to the point where it was time for "Ted" to attack, another assistant took off running with the rope, as the rope pulled tight, it pulled in the 550 cord, which raised "Ted's" arm with the knife. The officer then had to react to the attack, drawing and firing on the move. Use plenty of rope to pull "Ted" with so that you can keep everyone out of the potential line of fire. You may want to designate a "maneuver area" for saftey, depends on the set up of your range.

Some variations we have used are to give the officer a briefcase and kit bag to carry in his hands, to simulate a scenario on the PD parking lot where he is going to or coming from his squad at the begining or end of the shift. I think that this would be easily adaptable to training for the situation we've discussed in this thread or other similar situations the CCW holder may face.

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Old October 7, 2001, 05:58 PM   #15
Mike in VA
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Please forgive my nievete, but the box cutters I've seen expose 1/4" - 1/2" of blade, OK for a nasty slash, pretty hard to stab deeply with, but not exactly lethal unless the BG is really good or really lucky.

At 10', you're not likely to get your weapon into play, best bet IMHO, is go from the shoulders, block with your off arm and try to deck him or kick the shinola out of him (i.e. make him sing alto). Smack his @$$ down if you can, make lotsa noise, enlist the aid of others if you can. I suspect there are now a lot of citizens out there who might help you.

Plan B, if you can knock him down and get some distance and get the Guardsman's attention, identify yourself and hope for the best. all the better. I agree that if you start shooting, you're pretty likely to be a casualty (God will know his own?). No dis on the NG, but how well trainied do you think they are, really (as of, like, today?)
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Old October 8, 2001, 09:37 AM   #16
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Think of the people around you (witnesses):

Drop bags, raise open hands, sidestep, "DROP THAT WEAPON!", retreat (don't cross the guards possible line of fire); defend with blows/kicks/whatever "NO! NO! NO!" (don't do any karate-style shouts - substitute NO in training); assess, scan, move to cover "POLICE! CALL THE POLICE!".

By verbalizing you have given witnesses and armed GGs the chance to decide which of you is the BG. Verbalizing can be one of the triggers for you to change to condition Orange or C Red, while giving the impression that you are being victimized, thus saving you from shots by the other GGs.

It should help avoid court or jail time with statements like "This nice gentleman accidentally bumped into that terrorist who tried to kill him although this nice guy was retreating and asked that terrorist to stop."
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Old October 8, 2001, 11:07 AM   #17
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I'd yell "Soldier - He's got a knife!" and if the SOB came after me, I'd attempt to insert it in his fourth point of contact. If he cuts me, in a scuffle, it ain't likely to be fatal, but I'll likely have an advantage in that I'm 6'2", weigh 272 (yay!), and look and sound like an American...
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Old October 8, 2001, 11:37 AM   #18
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Even though it's against regulations, you can manually insert a single round into the M-16, and carry it loaded. It looks empty to your sargent, but at least you have one shot. If you're a good shot, and the situation permits, then one bullet is all it takes.

Which means that the "unloaded" weapon you see may still be live. Not likely, but possible.

If you've got anything you can throw at the assailants face to distract, or use as a shield (luggage) than use that to buy time for the soldiers to respond to your verbalized warning.

If you draw down in a train station, and aren't in some kind of uniform, guess what you are? A TERRORIST! BANG, BANG, BANG! And now you're the one who's dead.

Now, if it was a grenade, and not a boxcutter that fell, than that'd be different. That's an immediate draw and double tap to his head. Then drop the gun and fall on your face so the soldiers don't have a reason to blow you away.

In an ideal world, you could capture him alive so they can interrogate him for information, but realistically, given the chance, the ragheads will kill themselves while taking as many of us with them as they can. So, cap and drop.
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Old October 9, 2001, 04:38 PM   #19
Tim Burke
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Run away, going past the soldier screaming in fear, "Look out, he's got a boxcutter."
10 feet isn't enough separation if he starts first, but if you start moving first, it should be plenty.
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Old October 9, 2001, 04:55 PM   #20
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Perhaps I misunderstood you, but I'd say never, never, never do such training with a real gun if you are placing the "perp" in front of the officer. The only way I would do such training would be:

1) With simunitions, full protective gear, and everyone on the range searched for all weapons (including knives, kubotans, etc).

2) With a non-firing aluminum or plastic dummy training gun.

3) Shooter faces down range at a target. "Perp" lines up next to the shooter, but facing up range. When the range officer blows the whistle, the shooter draws and fires at the target. The "perp" takes off running up range (away from the shooter and the target). When the shooter fires the second round, the "perp" stops and you measure how far the "perp" made it while running.

Never point a real gun at another good guy during training, even if it is "unloaded." Lots of police officers have died during training when the "unloaded" gun turned out to be loaded.

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Old October 9, 2001, 07:41 PM   #21
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Mea Culpa

I bow before one who speaks wiser than I am.
Thank you M1911, you are right.

To all the other TFL'ers...Mea Culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
Please follow the words of M1911...I misspoke and I apologize for it.
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Old October 10, 2001, 07:48 PM   #22
Rob Orlando
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Well I'm already "on my toes" because of the bump, and noticing the box cutter type weapon. I don't think I would have taken the couple steps towards the guard to begin with. I think my focus would be the collision....and how did you get 10 feet from him so quickly? Heading to the guard? I think if he wanted to do you harm he would be on you immediately. Then just hope you can beat him down, before he does you!

When I see the blade movement in your scenario, is when I think I would act by drawing attention to the situation and make a break depending on the surroundings. Can I put something between us, a row of seats, trashcan? If not I'll defend myself in the best way that suits the "moment". There is no time for indecision
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