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Old October 18, 2019, 09:51 AM   #76
Lohman446
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How do we have this discussion without dancing around the caliber line war?

For use in self defense against two legged threats not wearing body armor or using effective cover has set the current standard. I think there are some important caveat in that statement and we could argue if that standard is the final correct answer or not but then we dive deeply into the caliber war. The advantage, to me, of 10MM comes when you discuss a "do everything" concealable pistol for hiking in areas where the threat may roam on two legs or four.

But the question ultimately was about the comeback of the 10MM. To me the 10MM has reached a critical mass where practice ammo from "normal" manufacturers is available without costing the same as defensive ammo or forcing the user to reload. I would compare it to the likes of the .45 Super or the .40 Super which are not at that mass. I can reasonably expect to find 10MM firearms and ammunition available without custom ordering them
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Old October 18, 2019, 09:55 AM   #77
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OP, you bring up some good points, but the 10mm comeback is a slow, but steady one. 6 years ago when I was getting into guns and watching youtube, 10mm was talked about occasionally, but in the past few years, everyone is talking about it.



For many, many years since the advent of the .40 in the late 80s/early 90s, your only options for 10mm were a Colt Delta Elite or a Glock. The concept of a revolver or even a carbine in 10mm was out of the question. Decades later, with a lot of thanks to the increase in gun owners due to various and sundry reasons, gun companies are looking to grab as much market share as they can, so 10mm, given its power, was something companies wanted to offer to get market share, problem is that they mostly put 10mm in heavy, expensive 1911's because it was cheap enough for the manufacturers to do, and not polymer pistols most people want.



The issue with 10mm is that companies are hesitant to make a full size pistol that's not in one of the big three calibers of 9mm, .40 (because they share frames with 9mm), and .45. Glock uses the same frame for their .45 and 10mm, so why others can't do the same doesn't make sense to me. I would have expected by now that Ruger, S&W, even Beretta and Taurus would be offering some polymer 10mm's, but they're not.



The issue is it's a circle of self fulfilling prophecy. The manufacturer's are hesitant to make a full size semi auto in 10mm because they're not as popular as 9/40/45 and 10mm's aren't as popular as 9/40/45 because the ammo isn't as cheap as 9/40/45 and the ammo makers won't make 10mm ammo in quantities as large as 9/40/45 to lower costs because 10mm isn't as popular as 9/40/45 because there aren't many guns in 10mm to choose from outside of Glock, 1911's, and Springfield.



IMO, there's no reason 10mm, if made in equal quantities as .40, should cost more than .40 does. It's the same bullets, powders, primers, and generally, machines that make it.



The thing about the factory ammo tho is, as you said, companies like Federal load 10mm to not much above that of .40 S&W levels. The ammo companies do this because they're using .40 S&W JHP bullets meant to expand at slower .40 velocities; crank up the velocity to 10mm power and they fall apart in soft tissue, reduce penetration, and low penetration is not good for self defense.



So why don't the ammo companies use properly made 10mm JHP bullets? It goes back to 10mm not being as popular as 9/40/45. I see that Federal recently came out with a 9mm that is polymer coated and is fragmenting, Syntech Defense I think it's called. It's amazing the number of funky new ammo that comes out in 9mm, but the reason it's in 9mm is because 9mm is the most popular pistol caliber in the world. The companies making the ammo see more potential profit in their investment than they do in doing anything with 10mm.



Of course, that's just doing a disservice to the gun community, but companies are in business to make money, not provide some altruistic service for the gun community.



All that being as it may, there are still things 10mm does better than the 9/40/45 or has various reasons for being a better choice than those calibers. More power than all three, higher capacities than .45, able to shoot .40 in some pistols without any modifications are the big three I can think of.



Personally, I'm planning on getting a 10mm Glock soon, probably December. My intent is to handload for it as factory ammo doesn't do 10mm justice and isn't cheap either. I have a bunch of .40 pistols and ammo, so a 10mm that shoots .40 too is nice if I just want to bring it to the range to shoot and not have to spend a couple hours making a box of 10mm.


That’s a pretty good point you made about the weaker 10mm hollow points being the watered down, low power versions. I didn’t really buy my sig 220 for defense against two-legged predators but when I was keeping it loaded around the house for anything other than 4-legged predators, I use the Sig V-crown hollow points because I figured those were the only full-power 10mm loads I could find.


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Old October 18, 2019, 10:13 AM   #78
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What 10mm bullet construction outperforms HST 9mm for self defense? None. Answer: HST 10mm and so says Federal.

Serious. Don't give me weights and lbs. So what? Answer: Are you seriously making that argument? Fool's errand to try to defend your statement.

There is no 10mm bullet that's doing better expansion, staying within reasonable penetration, and not costing my left leg. Answer: Just plain wrong. See answer to your 1st stupid statement above.

Internet lore.
Once again, your self promoting answer ignores the entire discussion of what the 10mm is best at, that of a hunting pistol. Yes, a thin skinned, weak animal like a human can be brought down with even low powered pistol calibers so your argument for self defense from 2 legged threats has some merit even though it's wrong.

However, you overstate the performance of the 9mm and understate the performance of the 10mm or 45acp to support your wild assertions. But, your argument falls completely apart when we talk about hunting or defense against the very things the 10mm is used for, hunting or defense against thicker skinned and possibly aggressive 4 legged animals.

There muzzle energy matters. There bullet weight matters. There caliber matters. Anyone who seriously believes that a 9mm would make a decent woods gun is either lying or a fool. So, get off your soap box and read the posts here. Think before you post.
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Old October 18, 2019, 11:34 AM   #79
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Wow, has this thread veered off course...

I ask a question about whatever happened to the 10mm Auto's comeback into mainstream popularity as prophesied by numerous writers, but now the thread has devolved into the usual caliber war territory in which the absurd argument is being made that 10mm is no more effective than 9mm.

*sighs* Why can't fans of the 9mm Luger cartridge be satisfied with the fact that it is the most popular cartridge for self-defense/law enforcement worldwide? Why must it be the absolute best cartridge ever for self-defense/law enforcement which renders all other cartridges practically useless? It's an argument that's as absurd as it is pointless.

You wanna know what, you're right! 9mm is the best thing ever, so is whatever vehicle you drive, whatever device that you're typing from, whatever clothes you are wearing, and your dad can totally beat up everyone else's dad. Satisfied? Can we actually return to the topic of the 10mm comeback now or should I go get my tape measure for the next big contest?
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Old October 18, 2019, 12:00 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Lohman446
How do we have this discussion without dancing around the caliber line war?
The answer to that seems straightforward to me. Is the 10mm making a comeback, or is it fading into obscurity?

How many makers are offering how many 10mm model pistols today? Is that number more or less than five years ago, or ten years ago?

How much 10mm ammunition is being sold today? Is that more or less than five years ago, or ten years ago?

The numbers would tell the tale, with no need whatsoever to even mention another caliber/chambering.
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Old October 18, 2019, 12:03 PM   #81
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The answer to that seems straightforward to me. Is the 10mm making a comeback, or is it fading into obscurity?

How many makers are offering how many 10mm model pistols today? Is that number more or less than five years ago, or ten years ago?

How much 10mm ammunition is being sold today? Is that more or less than five years ago, or ten years ago?

The numbers would tell the tale, with no need whatsoever to even mention another caliber/chambering.
Without the numbers I would make the argument, from what I see, that the 10MM has made enough of a comeback that it is not in danger of fading into obscurity. New firearms and ammunition are readily available in 10MM from multiple manufacturers and multiple form factors (not just 1911s made by different companies).
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Old October 18, 2019, 12:49 PM   #82
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Wow, has this thread veered off course...

I ask a question about whatever happened to the 10mm Auto's comeback into mainstream popularity as prophesied by numerous writers, but now the thread has devolved into the usual caliber war territory in which the absurd argument is being made that 10mm is no more effective than 9mm.

*sighs* Why can't fans of the 9mm Luger cartridge be satisfied with the fact that it is the most popular cartridge for self-defense/law enforcement worldwide? Why must it be the absolute best cartridge ever for self-defense/law enforcement which renders all other cartridges practically useless? It's an argument that's as absurd as it is pointless.

You wanna know what, you're right! 9mm is the best thing ever, so is whatever vehicle you drive, whatever device that you're typing from, whatever clothes you are wearing, and your dad can totally beat up everyone else's dad. Satisfied? Can we actually return to the topic of the 10mm comeback now or should I go get my tape measure for the next big contest?
If you didn't think the effectiveness of the cartridge was going to be discussed in this topic, I'm not sure what to tell you.

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Old October 18, 2019, 06:23 PM   #83
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For use in self defense against two legged threats not wearing body armor or using effective cover has set the current standard. I think there are some important caveat in that statement and we could argue if that standard is the final correct answer or not but then we dive deeply into the caliber war.
When someone finally invents that special crystal ball that can reveal to you, the good guy, all the variables you'll encounter in your upcoming gunfight with the armed bad guy(s) please let me know.

Number of assailants? Distance? Presence (or not) of intermediate barriers?

Quote:
The advantage, to me, of 10MM comes when you discuss a "do everything" concealable pistol for hiking in areas where the threat may roam on two legs or four.
Exactly, ... but because the variables of an attack by 2-legged predators even in an urban setting cannot be known in advance, the capabilities of the 10mm, in particular its proven ability to penetrate intermediate barriers, gives it a distinct advantage in terms of versatility of use over other 'service cartridges.' It's in that sense that the 10mm is a 'do-all' cartridge.
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Old October 18, 2019, 08:58 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by forte S+W
. Wow, has this thread veered off course...

I ask a question about whatever happened to the 10mm Auto's comeback into mainstream popularity as prophesied by numerous writers, but now the thread has devolved into the usual caliber war territory in which the absurd argument is being made that 10mm is no more effective than 9mm.

*sighs* Why can't fans of the 9mm Luger cartridge be satisfied with the fact that it is the most popular cartridge for self-defense/law enforcement worldwide? Why must it be the absolute best cartridge ever for self-defense/law enforcement which renders all other cartridges practically useless? It's an argument that's as absurd as it is pointless.

You wanna know what, you're right! 9mm is the best thing ever, so is whatever vehicle you drive, whatever device that you're typing from, whatever clothes you are wearing, and your dad can totally beat up everyone else's dad. Satisfied? Can we actually return to the topic of the 10mm comeback now or should I go get my tape measure for the next big contest?

I hear you loud and clear. One of the unfortunate aspects of this forum that i have learned is the fact of most all "single" caliber topics will quickly derail into a laptop ballistition commando caliber war. Everyone thinks they are a trajectory scientist. I enjoy handloading and shooting every caliber. I dump on none.
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Old October 19, 2019, 02:12 AM   #85
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When someone finally invents that special crystal ball that can reveal to you, the good guy, all the variables you'll encounter in your upcoming gunfight with the armed bad guy(s) please let me know.

Number of assailants? Distance? Presence (or not) of intermediate barriers?



Exactly, ... but because the variables of an attack by 2-legged predators even in an urban setting cannot be known in advance, the capabilities of the 10mm, in particular its proven ability to penetrate intermediate barriers, gives it a distinct advantage in terms of versatility of use over other 'service cartridges.' It's in that sense that the 10mm is a 'do-all' cartridge.
I agree, 10mm is a versatile do it all cartridge. Want max power for hunting and self defense from dangerous predators? 10mm does that. Want something moderately warm for self defense? 10mm does that. Want something light like .40? 10mm does that. Want it subsonic... you name it and 10mm can do it.

I believe if the military wasn't stuck to the 9mm, they would look at 10mm and have a variety of different 10mm loads for different demands. Maybe even a submachine gun too.

There aren't many submachine guns out there with a bullet that's packing 900 to 1000 ft/lbs at the muzzle.

But for now 10mm is only seeing use with civilians and the drawback to that versatility is factory ammo options for non reloaders.

Years ago when I was adamant I wasn't going to spend the money to get into reloading, I bought the Glock 35 and later the 27 in .40. Today, if I could do it over, I would have gotten the Glock 40 and a 29. The nice thing about the .40 Glocks I got is the switch to 9mm is a simple barrel swap.
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Old October 19, 2019, 03:23 AM   #86
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I wonder if some gauge of 10mm popularity may be with sales of the G20 and G29. Also the new long slide Glock. The Glock's are among the more economical handguns in 10mm. I do miss my G29. I don't put much credence in many articles that make comparison by using best loads in one round and the worst in the other. Wonder what sort of pressures we are talking about in these super 10mm loads?
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Old October 19, 2019, 07:32 AM   #87
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I agree, 10mm is a versatile do it all cartridge. Want max power for hunting and self defense from dangerous predators? 10mm does that. Want something moderately warm for self defense? 10mm does that. Want something light like .40? 10mm does that. Want it subsonic... you name it and 10mm can do it.

I believe if the military wasn't stuck to the 9mm, they would look at 10mm and have a variety of different 10mm loads for different demands. Maybe even a submachine gun too.

There aren't many submachine guns out there with a bullet that's packing 900 to 1000 ft/lbs at the muzzle.

But for now 10mm is only seeing use with civilians and the drawback to that versatility is factory ammo options for non reloaders.

Years ago when I was adamant I wasn't going to spend the money to get into reloading, I bought the Glock 35 and later the 27 in .40. Today, if I could do it over, I would have gotten the Glock 40 and a 29. The nice thing about the .40 Glocks I got is the switch to 9mm is a simple barrel swap.
The military has SBRs, which saw the decline of many subguns. They are coming back, however.

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Old October 19, 2019, 08:30 AM   #88
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Bought a 10mm (Glock 20) at an auction on a whim. Cool pistol at a decent price. I was happy.

Shot it a few times using 180 grain 10mm range ammo and also shot 180 grain .40 through the pistol back to back. Nothing earth shattering with either as the 10mm wasn’t that much hotter than the .40 in the pistol. The 10mm was more expensive than the .40 ammo.

So, I decided to buy some hot Underwood 200 or 220 grain pushing 1,350 FPS. Now, that was hot. You could definitely tell a big difference between that and the regular 10mm range ammo I had shot previously. However, this ammo was much more expensive and not something I would shoot regularly.

And then it dawned on me... I don’t hunt, hike, camp, or reload. So, why did I need a 10mm pistol????

I already owned a Glock 22 in .40 S&W and had determined that regular 10mm wasn’t much different than .40.

So, I sold the Glock 20 for what I had in it. It was fun for a few months and I’m glad I tried it.
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Old October 19, 2019, 08:57 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by agtman View Post
When someone finally invents that special crystal ball that can reveal to you, the good guy, all the variables you'll encounter in your upcoming gunfight with the armed bad guy(s) please let me know.

Number of assailants? Distance? Presence (or not) of intermediate barriers?



Exactly, ... but because the variables of an attack by 2-legged predators even in an urban setting cannot be known in advance, the capabilities of the 10mm, in particular its proven ability to penetrate intermediate barriers, gives it a distinct advantage in terms of versatility of use over other 'service cartridges.' It's in that sense that the 10mm is a 'do-all' cartridge.
No it doesn't. I can put four rounds into a threat by the time you've put two. If they are wearing modern body armor your 10mm won't make a difference.
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Old October 19, 2019, 09:31 AM   #90
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It never ceases to amuse me when folks bring follow-up shots into an argument.

Believe it or not, just because YOU can only fire a gun so fast doesn't mean that nobody else in the world can shoot it faster. Folks come in all shapes and sizes, ergo a larger man who works out regularly is less likely to be slowed down by recoil impulse than a smaller man who never works out.

10mm Auto may be significantly hotter than 9mm Luger, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP, but it's no .500 S&W Magnum. In fact, the recoil isn't all that different from .45 ACP, which can easily be shot very fast and very accurately.

Can cartridges with less recoil be shot faster? Of course, but the difference in speed is negligible, like 0.2-0.5 seconds faster tops between average self-defense cartridges.
Besides, if getting out as much lead as quickly as possible determines the overall combat effectiveness of a firearm, then the Taurus Judge or S&W Governor must be the most effective handgun in the world because you can launch anywhere from 4-5 .36/9mm projectiles per trigger pull with 000 Buck shells, for a grand total of 20-24 projectiles per cylinder dump, which is more lead than any semiautomatic pistol is capable of outputting with a standard capacity magazine.
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Old October 19, 2019, 10:26 AM   #91
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A dozen or so years ago the only 10mm pistol still available from a major manufacturer was the Glock 20. Then Kimber introduced a 1911 in 10mm. Now there are many more 10mm handguns available.

Just because the 10mm isn't currently as popular as the 9mm or 45 Auto, doesn't mean it hasn't made a comeback. Many shooters are uninterested in a handgun with the recoil level of full power 10mm ammo. Others are unwilling to invest the effort in learning to shoot one well. So the 10mm is unlikely to ever achieve the widespread use of the generally friendly 9mm.
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Old October 19, 2019, 10:50 AM   #92
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I don't know that I'd call 0.2-0.5 seconds between shots negligible.

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Old October 19, 2019, 12:47 PM   #93
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I don't know that I'd call 0.2-0.5 seconds between shots negligible.
In a pistol match they add up, in a fight I do not see it as critical if your first shot was a good hit.
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Old October 19, 2019, 01:34 PM   #94
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For the sake of clarification, I'm talking about in a self-defense situation, not competitive shooting.

Also, I feel that I should specify that I don't subscribe to the illogical belief that higher statistical values such as energy foot-pounds are utterly meaningless, ergo as far as I'm concerned, an additional 0.2-0.5 seconds between shots in exchange for upwards of 100ft-lbs per shot is more than adequate compensation.
Feel free to tell me all about how I'm wrong because 9mm Luger is the best thing ever and any benefit other cartridges have over it don't matter because 9mm defies the laws of physics according to some blanket statement the FBI made in attempt to justify downgrading to a statistically weaker cartridge to the average ignorant citizen who understands nothing about ballistics.
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Old October 19, 2019, 02:47 PM   #95
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I'm also talking about self defense. Self defense shootings are typically very short, not long drawn out ordeals. The ability to deliver hits accurately and quickly is, imo, paramount (and no I don't carry 22LR so yes I still factor in ballistics). The longer the fight goes on the more opportunities for your adversary to also manage hits. Couple this with dealing with drawing from concealment and time can very much be a factor. Having quick follow up shots and having a quick and accurate first shot also aren't mutually exclusive. On average most shootings do involve more than one shot.

As for 10mm, I don't ever remember personally saying 9mm was the penultimate choice. What I remember saying is that 0.2-0.0.5 seconds isn't something I consider negligible (the high end of that is two additional shots for me). I also don't think I'm ignorant of ballistics. Strawmen arguments aren't really needed here. If you think the trades are worth it for you then great, I have no personal stake in what you choose for self defense.

By the way, don't look now but you're discussing the effectiveness of the cartridge, as opposed to your prior comments about how we shouldn't. It's the reality of this conversation.

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Old October 19, 2019, 03:47 PM   #96
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Personally, I don't see how mere fractions of a second between shots can have any meaningful impact on the outcome of a gunfight. It's not like the other guy is going to be able to get off any more shots than you within the same time frame once you've both become engaged in the fight, at least not under ordinary circumstances in which nothing happened to delay you from returning fire beyond the time it takes you to get back on target after each shot.
I wasn't referring to you specifically in my closing statements, but rather anyone who feels the need to make such an argument.

You're absolutely right, I have inadvertently gotten sucked into the very argument that I said was a deviation from the topic at hand and thus shouldn't be discussed any further, but seeing as you have already shown no intention of stopping by continuing to argue after the fact, there's no valid reason for me to refrain from throwing in my 2¢ now that the thread has been irrevocably derailed.
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Old October 19, 2019, 04:14 PM   #97
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Bought a 10mm (Glock 20) at an auction on a whim. Cool pistol at a decent price. I was happy.

Shot it a few times using 180 grain 10mm range ammo and also shot 180 grain .40 through the pistol back to back. Nothing earth shattering with either as the 10mm wasn’t that much hotter than the .40 in the pistol. The 10mm was more expensive than the .40 ammo.

So, I decided to buy some hot Underwood 200 or 220 grain pushing 1,350 FPS. Now, that was hot. You could definitely tell a big difference between that and the regular 10mm range ammo I had shot previously. However, this ammo was much more expensive and not something I would shoot regularly.

And then it dawned on me... I don’t hunt, hike, camp, or reload. So, why did I need a 10mm pistol????

I already owned a Glock 22 in .40 S&W and had determined that regular 10mm wasn’t much different than .40.

So, I sold the Glock 20 for what I had in it. It was fun for a few months and I’m glad I tried it.
Yeah, if you're not out in big creature country, the 10mm isn't the best choice for a pistol caliber, but between a revolver in .41/.44/.45 and the 10mm Glock, the Glock is a lot lighter and holds 10 more rounds.

Only shooting factory ammo in a 10mm is an expensive proposition. It really is a reloader's only cartridge for those looking to shoot the max power stuff, but that's not unlike any of the big bore revolver calibers either.
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Old October 19, 2019, 04:41 PM   #98
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Personally, I don't see how mere fractions of a second between shots can have any meaningful impact on the outcome of a gunfight. It's not like the other guy is going to be able to get off any more shots than you within the same time frame once you've both become engaged in the fight, at least not under ordinary circumstances in which nothing happened to delay you from returning fire beyond the time it takes you to get back on target after each shot.
I wasn't referring to you specifically in my closing statements, but rather anyone who feels the need to make such an argument.

You're absolutely right, I have inadvertently gotten sucked into the very argument that I said was a deviation from the topic at hand and thus shouldn't be discussed any further, but seeing as you have already shown no intention of stopping by continuing to argue after the fact, there's no valid reason for me to refrain from throwing in my 2¢ now that the thread has been irrevocably derailed.
Except 0.5 seconds is enough time to get off more shots. For me that's two more shots. For others it's more, for others it's less. Will those two shots matter? I don't know.

What after the fact was I arguing (did I actually personally mention ballistics beforehand besides saying I thought its mention was inevitable)? My comment was on time, not on ballistics. That was you who brought it up, and then I commented on that fact and how I don't think you can discuss the popularity of 10mm without mentioning it (as evidenced by the people who like and dislike the cartridge both bringing up ballistics). It seems to me that the ballistics of 10mm absolutely factor into its popularity. Irrevocably derailed? Oh my.

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Old October 19, 2019, 05:56 PM   #99
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The moderators are all in agreement that this discussion has gone completely off the rails regarding the actual question. We left it open in the hope that some potentially useful information might nonetheless turn up.

Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that's likely to happen. Closed.
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