10mm Bug

[USAF Ret]

Originally Posted by rock185

Thoughts/inputs: I admit to being a fan of the 10MM since it was introduced, and began loading for it soon as dies were available. Beginning with a Bren Ten, I've had a succession of 10s,i.e., S&W semi-autos, Colt Delta, Kimber and Glock autos, and S&W and Ruger revolvers. The S&W 10s; 1006s, 1026s, 1076s, became my favorites. The uber reliable S&Ws handle any and all 10MM ammo I've used, without any issues with durability, without need of heavy or dual recoil springs, buffers, etc. l I have no experience with compact 10MM guns, the 10MM XD, or double stack 1911 type 10s. While I'm a long time SIG owner, I never got around to buying SIG in 10MM either...

Having owned and loaded for .41 Mag, .44 Mag, and .454 Casull, I'm fully aware the 10MM ballistics do not equal any of the big Magnum revolvers. IMHO, 10MM ballistics are more comparable to .357 Mag. than the others mentioned. But in a service sized semi-auto pistol, I believe the 10 is quite practical. A factory load I've used, the Buffalo Bore 180 grain, IMHO demonstrates ballistics near the top of what the 10MM might be safely loaded to. In a 5" semi-auto the BB 180 averaged 1380 FPS. FWIW, my S&W 5" 610 revolvers routinely produced velocities higher than the same loads in the autos. I didn't have the opportunity to test the BB 180 in the revolver, but the results might have been interesting. Not equal to the big Magnum revolvers, but I wouldn't expect it to be.

I looked online for used Smith's yesterday. Nada.

[USAF Ret]

Originally Posted by Forte S+W

Yeah, but your wallet sure can.

So if all he's going to shoot is .40 spec 10mm FBI loads, then it's substantially cheaper to just buy a cheap police trade-in .40 than buy a new 10mm then have to pay for overpriced 10mm FBI ammo.

Also, he mentioned right in the first sentence that he began looking into the 10mm seeking a hiking sidearm for his son, ergo I assume that at least part of his attraction to 10mm lies in its utility as a viable platform for Wilderness Defense, and obviously for that role he's going to want full-power ammunition, not reduced power loads designed specifically for combat with bipedal predators.

Affirm. I have Glock 22. I would be looking at loading hotter loads with a 220-230 grain cast bullet for backwoods.

[USAF Ret]

Originally Posted by Steve in Allentown,

My son lives and works in the Kalispell region of Montana. He's an outdoor guy and takes full advantage of every season in the Rocky Mountains. I brought him up with 1911s so when the time came to get a pistol to carry around the mountains he got a RIA single stack 10mm. A few years passed and he bought a Springfield 5.25" XDm 10mm. I've shot both of these pistols and my choice would be the XDm. It feels very much like a 1911 but carries a lot more rounds (15 +1) and has a trigger that is light years ahead of Glock.

He uses Buffalo Bore 220gr hard cast, flat nose rounds with a muzzle velocity of 1,200 fps and over 700 ft lbs of energy. Not a .44 Mag but plenty of oomph to easily penetrate the skull of Mr. Grizz.

Good input. Thanks. I own an XD in 9mm. It is my carry gun and I shoot it better than most of my other handguns.

[MarkCO]

While I shot M&Ps for years, I am not a fan of the M&P/XD striker fired design, especially for heavier recoiling rounds. Both pistols cock the striker to an energy level that is sufficient to ignite primers in the normal condition. The Glock, and other striker fired designs do not. In addition, the sears on both the M&P and XD relies on a few degrees of angle and both wear at a rate that requires replacement well before other designs, often in the 25K range, sooner for the heavier recoiling rounds.

Yes, for the M&P and XD to fire due to a sear failure requires the striker safety to have been bypassed or fail as well. I have inspected a lot of these two brands where they either had dead triggers (sear worn and fails to hold striker when cocked) or fired upon cocking (same, but striker safety did not function as intended). A few fired in holsters and a few in the users hand, when their finger was not on the trigger. I still have one M&P9 and I replace my sear every 20K. On first sear, I started to get dead triggers at about 27K. On the second one, it started to double with my finger on the trigger at about 24K. On it's 4th sear at about 75K now.

While I doubt there are many people have a 10mm XD to 20K rounds, it is something to be aware of in a maintenance schedule if that is what you choose.

[sparkyv]

Great write up, rock185. Any experience with the SR1911-10? Preference on Ruger or S&W 10mm revolver?

Originally Posted by rock185

Thoughts/inputs: I admit to being a fan of the 10MM since it was introduced, and began loading for it soon as dies were available. Beginning with a Bren Ten, I've had a succession of 10s,i.e., S&W semi-autos, Colt Delta, Kimber and Glock autos, and S&W and Ruger revolvers. The S&W 10s; 1006s, 1026s, 1076s, became my favorites. The uber reliable S&Ws handle any and all 10MM ammo I've used, without any issues with durability, without need of heavy or dual recoil springs, buffers, etc. l I have no experience with compact 10MM guns, the 10MM XD, or double stack 1911 type 10s. While I'm a long time SIG owner, I never got around to buying SIG in 10MM either...

Having owned and loaded for .41 Mag, .44 Mag, and .454 Casull, I'm fully aware the 10MM ballistics do not equal any of the big Magnum revolvers. IMHO, 10MM ballistics are more comparable to .357 Mag. than the others mentioned. But in a service sized semi-auto pistol, I believe the 10 is quite practical. A factory load I've used, the Buffalo Bore 180 grain, IMHO demonstrates ballistics near the top of what the 10MM might be safely loaded to. In a 5" semi-auto the BB 180 averaged 1380 FPS. FWIW, my S&W 5" 610 revolvers routinely produced velocities higher than the same loads in the autos. I didn't have the opportunity to test the BB 180 in the revolver, but the results might have been interesting. Not equal to the big Magnum revolvers, but I wouldn't expect it to be.

[rc]

I have a Kimber 1911 in 10mm. I like the gun but don't really shoot it that much. My buddy got the bug for a 10mm and bought a compact Glock. Then he bought an extended barrel for more velocity. Then he bought some buffalo bore ammo with the flat meplat. The most powerful 10mm for bear protection. Then he found that ammo didn't feed well in the glock. Then he got over his love affair with the 10mm and he got rid of it. A reliable double action 357 mag is a much better choice for bear protection than 10mm. He likes his GP100 357 now. Nothing wrong with 10mm. If you want to buy one and reload for it you'll enjoy it. Just don't expect it to be a magic bolt of lightning or Thors Hammer. A good 357 mag revolver is a much more versatile and reliable handgun when a 44 is just too big and heavy to carry all day. I've had some issues with hot handloads locking my Kimber back prematurely. It runs fine on the watered down factory stuff and soft handloads. If I had to choose one general purpose, do it all handgun, it would likely be a good 357 magnum.

[Steve in Allentown,]

Originally Posted by MarkCO

. . . I am not a fan of the M&P/XD striker fired design . . .

. . . the sears on both the M&P and XD relies on a few degrees of angle and both wear at a rate that requires replacement well before other designs

This is something I was completely unaware of. I may not have read closely enough but is this true of Glocks or other striker fired pistols also?

[Dan-O]

10mm bug....just like pringles. Once you pop, you can’t stop.

There’s no wrong answer when it comes to 10mm.

[MarkCO]

Steve, most are close copies of the Glock design. Glocks have about half of the (total) energy in the "partially" cocked configuration as opposed to about 95% of the (total) energy in the M&P and XD. That is why the M&P and XD have slightly better triggers than Glocks. You are not using the trigger to put 50% more energy into the striker spring, only 5%.

But the Glock system is much more durable. Due to the geometry, it can endure significant wear, long term, and the striker still won't be able to slip off of the rear of the trigger bar. The M&P and XD utilize a trigger bar and a separate sear that can move independent of the trigger bar. That is one of the major differences between the M&P style striker fired pistols and the Glock style striker fired pistols.

When I consult for LEAs on their pistol selections, this is an item we discuss as far as a wear/maintenance item.

[agtman]

10mm Bug

Damn thing bites hard.

Then you're infected with The Obsession.

My son lives on CO and has been looking for a sidearm for hiking, both in CO and other states. He has been set on a S&W 44 magnum. I did some research and the next thing I know I am led to watching 10mm videos. Bad news is, now I want one. Also want to start reloading (ammo run will do that to you).
So, watching videos, I am liking the Glock 40 and the RIA double stack 1911. This will be a future purchase, if there is a future after all of the craziness going on.
Just looking for thoughts, inputs on folks shooting the 10mm.

I have all three 10mm Glocks. For what you describe, it's really a choice between the G20 and the G40.

The G40 has become my dedicated 'outdoors' gun: hiking, camping, or just saunterin' about in the boonies. It's super-accurate (for a Glock), and would be my Go-To hunting handgun if I pursued that form of deer hunting. (I don't - nothing against it; just other methods take up my hunting time).

Obviously the longer sight radius from the 6.2" slide/barrel contributes to that, and I run mine with steel Trijicon HDs rather than a micro-RDS mounted on the MOS platform. Just a personal preference, being Old School.

No threats of Brownies or grizzlies here. Only maybe the lone black bear spotted at distance at most. Coyotes are plentiful though and not bashful, and unfortunately we're seeing an increasing number of feral dogs, possibly hybrids. So 15+1 rounds of hard-hitting 10mm comfort is a good thing, and having one or two spare 15-rd mags in pouches on your hip is mo' better.

It's an OUTDOORS - 'woods, boonies, and trail' - gun. Therefore ammo selection is easy: you want Heavy & Fast. So bullet-weights of 200gns or 220gns minimum moving at speed are indicated.

Remember: there's ain't no such thing as 'overpenetration' while your out and about in Rough Country.

So in factory ammo, look at Underwood, Buffalo Bore, or Double Tap, if you don't already roll your own. As always, spend the $$$ on a few extra boxes to test in your gun to ensure feeding and cycling reliability, especially if they're hard-cast loads.

The G40 rides most comfortably in a center-chest rig. There are several good choices out there, but I went with Galco's 'Great Alaskan' rig. It keeps the gun secure but immediately accessible while still leaving my hands free to engage in whatever activity I'm doing, ... like riding an ATV or mule, collecting wood for the camp fire, or just negotiating a steep trail with hiking my staff.

Hope this helps ...

[Shane Tuttle]

If you like the 1911 platform, yet are on a budget, the RIA you mentioned will do quite well.

Personally, I stay away from Kimber due to very unfavorable experiences I've had with them. Too many other manufacturers out there that make quality 1911 variants that have much better customer service when the need arises.

Glock's G20 has been around for a long time. It's been proven to handle 10mm loads as long as their 9mm counterparts can. I hate Glocks, myself. But to turn you away from a Glock due to personal preferences is intellectually dishonest. Customer service is good. It shoots accurately. And pricing is in the middle of the pack for what it offers.

I rarely sell guns I buy. Unfortunately, I tried the EAA Witness in 10mm and it didn't work out for me at the range. If you have larger hands and don't mind a shallow slide, I would consider one. 14+1 rounds in a steel CZ type platform. Good fit/finish. Should find new ones under $600.

You want a polymer frame? XD(m) would be my choice. They aren't "close copies" of Glocks anymore a Ford is a close copy to a Chevy. Sig Mosquitoes? That's what you call a copy. I have no problem trusting the platform. There are issues with every platform there is. Glock Kabooms, etc. would make you think Glocks were garbage. They aren't. Most of the problems of today are people think you should be able to fire your gun 100,000 times with zero failures of any kind. Hate to burst anyone's bubble. There isn't a platform out there that can do it. Has there been one? Yup. A VW bug has logged 1 million miles, too. But rarely has another one made it. Bottom line is, if you're plannning on shooting your gun for 25000 rounds, expect some kind of wear and maintenance, no matter the brand. And clean/inspect your gun regularly. 99% of the people griping about the design of guns have unrealistic expectations of a tool.

Don't mind spending a little bit of money? I sold my Witness and bought a Springfield Range Officer Elite Operator in 10mm. I absolutely LOVE it.

[Swifty Morgan]

The 10mm is a funny gun. It's only a good idea if you reload. At least it seemed that way when I got mine. Decent defense ammo was something like $40 per box.

[Gary Gill]

I bought a Glock 21 recently and am able to shoot it well. I'm thinking if Uncle Sam comes through with cash, I'll seriously look for a Glock 20 and a set of dies. (Tongue in cheek) Reloading is my hobby, shooting is how I keep it going.

[Steve in Allentown,]

Originally Posted by MarkCO

That is why the M&P and XD have slightly better triggers than Glocks. You are not using the trigger to put 50% more energy into the striker spring, only 5%.

The light bulb just went off. Now I understand. Thanks very much for your insight.

[MarkCO]

Originally Posted by Steve in Allentown,

The light bulb just went off. Now I understand. Thanks very much for your insight.

Thanks, you are most welcome.

[Kreyzhorse]

My friend bought a Dan Wesson Bruin in 10mm. After he took a doe with one last year, I too became very interested in the 10mm. The Bruin by the way is an excellent firearm.

That said, I bought a Kimber Camp Guard late last year. Stunning gun, fit and finish were perfect. Damn thing wouldn't run out of the box however. After a quick trip to Kimber, they throated the chamber, replaced the extractor and replaced the recoil spring, it now runs perfectly.

The gun is a joy to shoot and I believe has less felt recoil than shooting a .45 acp. Your mileage may vary of course.

I certainly think the Camp Guard is worth looking at if you want a 10mm, worts and all.

[COSteve]

I'm a huge fan of the 10mm and suggest that you consider a Glock G40 over the G20 as the longer slide and barrel are a huge advantage in a 10mm, especially if you handload.

1st: The 6" slide gives you a 28% longer sight radius which makes precision aiming much easier. I can shoot steel plates at 200yds with my iron sights custom G20L with relative ease in large part because of the longer sight radius.

2nd: My 1.4" longer slide and barrel weigh 4¾ oz more than a G20 slide and barrel and as that weight is all at the muzzle, it makes the pistol 'hang' better during aiming and it provides more mass and weight to tame the recoil. Even with my 'nuclear' level handloads, the recoil is surprisingly mild. Not a harsh snap you'd expect but more of a strong push.

3rd: The extra 1.4" of barrel really makes handloads come alive. My neighbor also has a G20 and we've compared the felt recoil and chrono'd the velocities of my same ammo at my range together. As I said above, the extra slide and barrel length rally tames the recoil and the velocities recorded from my 6" G20L are nearly 300fps faster than out of his 4.6" G20.

Besides, the long slide just makes the weapon look sexy.

[Gary Gill]

Steve, tell me about the sights on your 40. Thanks

[Desmosedici]

Reading these posts really has piqued my interest in a 10mm. I live in a city but take frequent trips to South TX on my brother in-law's property where coyotes run freely, as do wild hogs.

Honestly though, I'd like a 1911, and just want a really powerful handgun to add to my collection. I already have a Glock and while I like it all right and it shoots well, I'm not looking to add another one. I'm going to take a look at the RIA when my favorite gun store has more inventory. I don't know much about this company and need to do a bit more research into the matter.

I guess the largest issue here is cost and the fact that I don't reload. It seems that shooting 10mm at any length is best served by reloading due to the cost of the rounds commercially, especially in the range of performance that justifies running 10mm to begin with...decisions, decisions.

[USAF Ret]

With all the great input, I am steering towards the RIA single stack. I gifted my RIA .45 ACP to my son and have also been wanting to get another 1911. In 10mm, two for one.

[CUBAN REDNECK]

The Tanfoglio Witness is a good choice, though they used to be much more affordable. They are CZ75 variants/clones and come in various barrel lengths, in both steal and polymer options. The Witness is a good smooth shooter.

[CDW4ME]

I've got 10mm 1911's and a Glock 20SF.
The 1911's: Delta Elite, Ruger, and a Kimber TLE - Ruger & Kimber have ramped barrel, Delta doesn't.
I've carried both, 1911's strong side IWB, the 20SF AIWB.
Handloading makes the caliber worthwhile for me.
My two most frequent loads are a Nosler 150 JHP @ 1,400 fps and a Nosler 180 JHP @ ~1,225 fps.
Both the Noslers are offered by Underwood at slightly higher advertised velocities.

Using standard capacity flush fit mags 10mm offers an additional round over 45 acp in 1911, two more rounds in Glock 20 (versus 21).

If one cares about KE, 10mm is a good choice ...
10mm Handload 180 Nosler @ 1,228 fps / 603# KE
10mm Handload Nosler 150 JHP @ 1,402 fps / 655# KE
45 acp factory Federal 230 HST @ 891 fps / 406# KE
45 acp factory Remington Golden Saber 185 +P @ 1,157 fps / 550# KE
As I said, both of my handloads are offered by Underwood at a bit higher velocity, still my 10mm load with less KE generates more than 45 acp +P

[HiDive]

I used to have a 10mm Glock model 20 but traded it toward a SIG 220 in 10mm which, besides magazine capacity was a much nicer pistol. I do not own either of them now. If I were to go back to owning a 10mm I think I would look at Springfield Armory. I believe it is the Sledgepatrol Sirius (Arctic LRRP; Navy) of Denmark that carries Glock 20 for protection from Polar Bears.

[Ruger45LC]

I'll be the dissenting voice here, I don't find much use for the 10mm. I've had quite a few, mostly Glocks but also a 10mm 1911 and a few GP100 10mm's. I also handload and have pushed the 10mm quite hard so I know what it's got in it. I'm not saying the 10mm isn't good, it's a very good cartridge, but my opinion of it is that the 10mm will not do anything a .40 or .45 won't already do.

Since this is mostly about the idea of woods use, again the .40 and .45 will kill anything the 10mm will, be it deer, pig or bear. A lot of people think handguns suck so if they see a 10mm kill a deer then they assume it has to be very powerful, even special, but any service cartridge can kill a deer just fine. If you're in danger of being food when walking in the woods, carry something more substantial than 10mm. Yes it has better capacity than a 44 revolver, but it has FAR less power per shot.

Again nothing against 10mm, but I don't think the cost of it is worth it over a .40/45. It's more powerful but not by that much, a .44 more powerful than the 10mm to a much larger extent than the 10mm is more powerful than the .40/45. I guess another way of putting it is that if you have a .40/.45, I don't think the 10mm is a worthwhile investment as it's not a big enough step up in power to make any difference.

[MarkCO]

You can dissent for sure, but the 10mm is legal for hunting in Colorado, the .40 and .45 don't make the minimum power floor, so not legal.