Comparing Balls and cartriges

[ZVP]

I have been shooting Black Powder cap and ball for about 9 months now and I still do not understand how to compare the relatitive power of a cap and ball shooting .44 and the .45 Long Colt.
I have fired both the. 45 cartrige (Smokeless) and the .44 C&B, the C&B recoils less, fires a lighter bullet. I am not sure of the velocity of the BP load but it has to be at least 600fps, correct?
Today I read an article quoting .45 LC loads and they use a base load of 30 gr of BP just as I use for a common load in my '58 Remingtons. however they geta 255 gr bullet going 755 fps!
My question is how much realpower do my 5 1/2" and 8" Remingtons actually produce firing a Ball and 30 gr of Black Powder as opposed to a conversion cylinder firing a .45 LC would be producing.
It seems the C&B load is far inferrior to any cartrige load of the same caliber using a cartrige conversion.
How much real raw horsepower am I loosing by shooting a Cap and Ball as opposed to mounting a conversion cylinder in the frame?
Heaven forbid I would ever need to use the C&B for defense and self protection how much potential disadvantage am I under by trusting the origonal 30 gr B/P load to using a 30 gr .45 LC cartrige in such a situation?
I know the C&B is a very deadly weapon but what's the difference if I went to cartriges?
Please help me get a grasp on maybe a formula to figure this out.
TIA,
ZVP

[hickstick_10]

kenetic energy = mass x velocity (weight in pounds) x (feet per second)

compare it to other ballistics tables

[Newton24b]

you have to consider something here.

a bit of gas will escape backwards through the nipple when your percussion gun is fired. as a result you automatically loose a bit of chamber pressure and some velocity. a metalic cartridge doesnt have that issue. also, the metallic cartridge is more efficient at burning the powder charge, as it uses a much hotter primer.

also the person using the cartridge conversion has a gun that is always shooting a bullet of the proper diameter, as a result the variable nature in the concentricity of roundballs, and conicals loaded into a true percussion gun is eliminated. that means the projectile effectively seals the barrel during firing.

the powder measure used will impact the actual amount of powder in the charge everytime. its very easy to find a powder measure that is throwing a charge that isnt what it claims. ie, a measuruer that throws 28 grains instead of the 30gr on the tick mark is very common.

also the brand and granulation of powder has big impact.
FFFg from each different powder company and production batch will produce different chamber pressures and velocities even if you use one measure for each charge that was tackwelded to throw one charge.

barrel length will have big impact on velocity.

[Model-P]

also the person using the cartridge conversion has a gun that is always shooting a bullet of the proper diameter, as a result the variable nature in the concentricity of roundballs, and conicals loaded into a true percussion gun is eliminated. that means the projectile effectively seals the barrel during firing.

The reverse is true.

The bullets in a cartridge could be any diameter the loader wishes to put in them. May or may not be what the gun wants.

The balls in a cap-and-ball gun are all sized using the built-in bullet sizer. The balls may vary in diameter and concentricity as cast, but so do regular old bullets before sizing. As long as all the chambers are reamed to the same size, the balls will be sized to the size the gun needs with every pull of the loading lever.

[arcticap]

If you buy a Ruger Old Army then maybe you wouldn't feel like you were so under gunned.

1. This reflects an ROA load with 190 grain Buffalo Bullets:

40Gr./Vol. H 777 1066 fps 51fps spread 479ft/lbs

See page 2 of the following thread, posts #30 & #34:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...elocity&page=2

2. Also recorded by mec in THR post #21 of the following thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...light=velocity

28 Grain Pyrodex P 966
28 Grain Goex FFFG 795
28 Grain Swiss FFFG 959
35 Grain Swiss FFFG 1089
40 Grains Swiss FFFG 1104
40 Grains Pyrodex P 1125
.454 ball- Uberti 58

3. Also from an Uberti 1858 loaded with 777, Post #4 by mec:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...light=velocity

I was shooting a .457 ball in my Remington/Uberti and it was spactic at any charge beneath 35 grains. It liked that charge fine:

35 Gr/Vol. H777 1061 28(spread)
A couple of charges worked well with the RamLok Bullet:
RamLok 194 Grain Bullet
30 Gr/Vol. H777 937 30
35 Gr/Vol. H777 1106 33

[B.L.E.]

kenetic energy = mass x velocity (weight in pounds) x (feet per second)

Um, no.

It's 1/2 mass x velocity squared.

(mass in slugs) x (ft per second) x (ft per second) / 2 = kinetic energy in ft.-lbs

(mass in kilograms) x (meters per second) x (meters per second) / 2 = kinetic energy in joules aka watt-seconds

A pound is a unit of force, not mass. The amount of mass that accelerates at 1 ft per second per second when one pound of force acts upon it is called a slug. A slug of mass weighs 32.2 pounds on the surface of the earth because earth's gravity has an acceleration of 32.2 ft per second per second. If you weighed a slug of mass on some planet that has gravity with an acceleration of 1 ft per second per second, it would weigh exactly one pound.

To convert grains into slugs, divide by 7000 to convert grains into pounds and then divide by 32.2 to convert pounds into slugs.

To convert lead round ball diameter into grains, cube the diameter of the ball measured in inches and then multiply by 1503.

[batjka]

From what I've read, the ballistics are pretty similar, as long as you're using conicals. When you're shooting ball, the velocity is increased, but the mass is much lower. Thus, there's about a 20-25% loss in energy. But it still would kill you.

I personally think the C&B revolvers are adequate for defense. As long as you don't have to shoot more than 6 shots :-))

[simonkenton]

There were a half million of these guns produced during the Civil War.
The reason the Feds and Rebels spent so much money making these guns is because they were very good man-killers.

Civil War cavalry troopers reported that a single torso shot from the cap and ball pistol would knock the enemy trooper out of the saddle, and out of the fight.
Civil War troopers reported better results with the round ball than with the elongated slug.

[w.t. anderson]

I think that the type of lead and bullet shape also mattered significantly. I remember reading that the pure lead ball used in the BP guns would flatten a good deal on impact, expanding the diameter and thus the impact of the shock/energy transferred. There was an early 1980s article in a major gun magazine (Guns & Ammo?) that compared black powder loads with modern ammo using gelatin blocks that showed the BP soft lead ball was far more effective than for what most paper calculations give it credit - unfortunately, I've lost the article and the authors names. Can anyone shed for light/info?
Thanks,
"Bloody Bill"

[Dino.]

Heaven forbid I would ever need to use the C&B for defense and self protection ...

As much fun as cap and ball guns are, I would never rely on one for self defense.

[Delmar]

...a bit of gas will escape backwards through the nipple when your... percussion gun is fired.

On a side note, I have messed some with aluminum homemade caps, made with the Forester tap o cap, and out of the several dozen that I have fired none of the caps have come off or broken open. It just got me wondering how much less gas escapes with these caps. Also makes me think they are less likely to chain fire.

[simonkenton]

It is well documented that Wild Bill Hickok killed a man with a heart shot at 75 paces with his 1851 Colt Navy in .36 caliber.
Whatever the little .36 will do, the .44 will do better.

[ZVP]

OK the proven fact that the C&B revolver is a mankiller is uncontested but I was wondering how far behind a .45 Colt Cartrige load a .44 C&B Load was.
Evidentlly the Cap and Ball load that has a b round lead ball and 30 gr of Black Powder falls way behind a 255 gr lead slug propelled by the same 30 grain load. Even though the round ball penetrates well, the larger cartrige/ bullet combination produces much more power.
I would have loved to read that Guns and Ammo article comparing B/P and modern loads! It would have answered my question completelly.
Thanks for all the formulas and If I can apply them to the loads in question I may get my answer.
I don't feel too undergunned with the .44 Remington as a sidearm because it sure seems to generate plenty of power!
Thanks guys!
ZVP

[batjka]

Just for your information, there are conical bullets available for the C&B revolvers. There's a member here that casts 200 and 220 gr bullets and has them for sale at very reasonable prices. If you use one of these conicalo bullets, you wuill certainly approach the ballistics of a .45 Colt.

The only real advantage a cartridge gun has over a C&B is speed of reloading and that the components are better protected from the elements

[simonkenton]

I have read that the .44 round ball from a cap and ball pistol has about the same foot pounds as the .38 special.

It is interesting, foot pounds on paper don't necessarily equal performance in the field.

Years ago I was an avid deer hunter in Georgia. I had killed dozens of deer with my beautiful Mauser 30-06. Using Remington CoreLokt 180 grain bullets, I usually went with the lung shot.
The lung shot always killed the deer, but the injured deer would run like hell.
I was averaging a blood trail of 110 yards. That can be a long tracking job, at dark, in the thick Georgia woods. I got real good at blood tracking.
Well, about 1982 I decided I wanted to hunt with muzzleloaders. I bought a TC Hawken from Dixie Gun Works.
Conical slugs were available back then, but I wanted to try what Davy Crockett used. I decided to hunt with black powder and the patched round ball.
With 80 grains of powder, I read that the .490 patched round ball was cranking out about 1,400 foot pounds.
On the other hand, my Mauser was putting out 2,900 foot pounds of energy.

Looking at it on paper, the round ball didn't look so good. But, Davy Crockett had killed deer and bears with the patched round ball, so I wanted to give it a try. Back then there was no special muzzleloading season in Georgia. So, if the round ball proved ineffective, I would just stick the Hawken in the closet and continue to use the Mauser.

In a few days, I made a lung shot on a buck with my Hawken at 60 yards.
That deer ran 40 yards and folded up!
I was delighted.
Over the years, I killed 7 deer and 6 wild hogs with that rifle. In every case I made a lung shot, and none of the game ran more than 50 yards. Always a great blood trail, Stevie Wonder could have followed that blood trail.

So, with less than half the energy, the round ball was a better game getter than the 30-06.
I learned that, at close range, the round ball has killing power far greater than it would appear to have from what the ballistics charts say.

In the last few years, I have read these accounts of what a man-killer the cap and ball pistol is, and how Civil War troops preferred the round ball to the conical slug, it doesn't surprise me at all.

[ZVP]

Articap,
Those 35gr 777 loads are some pretty hot loads for even the strong Remington Frame!
I understand that 777 should be reduced 15% by weight from a standard B/P or Pyrodex Load. I would be hesitant to load my guns that heavy.
Thanks for posting
ZVP

[ZVP]

I wasn't trying to get a "Man Killer" string going here I was simply trying to get a grasp on comparing the relative power of a C&B as opposed to a cartrige load with the same powder fill. It seems the closed cartrige with a conical bullet even with Black powder, still rules.
It appears that the on paper calculations differ greatly from the "Real World" preformance of a C&B load! Though the .44 C&B reads out like a low end .38 special, there is obviously swome real difference to the way the ball preformes. Btw the basic .38 special served for many years as the standard Police load and was proven out to be a mid range of preformance fight stopper. So the "paper spec's" aren't anything to sneeze at!
I get such good preformance from round lead balls that I use them exclusivelly. I have gotten good 20 yard groups with both the .36 and .44 caliber using balls that why use anything else, no casting no trying to locate a source for conical bullets.
I have read that during the Civil War soldiers claimed that the swaging of the ball into the cylinder mishaped the ball creating a sharp sholder that aided in tearing into a wound channel and acted much like a SWC so to speak. Of course there were no ballisticans back to dive into the preformance of Ball Loads back then and accounts from footsoldiers of the man-killing power of a ball can only be speculated upon.
I would feel a lot better with a high end .357 in my New Vaquero for a self defense load but I also don't feel too undergunned with a 30 gr B/P load behind a .44 round ball in my '58 Remington hanging on my hip.
The thing I love about this forum is that you often get MORE information than you asked for!
ZVP

[Model-P]

Just for your information, there are conical bullets available for the C&B revolvers. There's a member here that casts 200 and 220 gr bullets and has them for sale at very reasonable prices. If you use one of these conicalo bullets, you wuill certainly approach the ballistics of a .45 Colt.

Typically, round balls are more accurate than conicals, and conicals tend to over penetrate. Thus, the round ball proved to be a better man-stopper than the conical. At least that's what I've read several times. No real-world experience on it here

[Bootsie]

FWIW: did some chronographing of Uberti & Centaure Thuer Army conversions (.44 cal) with their C&B cylinders as a control.
Powder loads were identical 26 grs of Swiss#1 for both the cartridge and the C&B cylinder, as were the heel type bullets of 195 gr soft lead used.
Out of the 8" barrel of the Uberti with the Thuer cylinder I got a velocity of 852 fps, with the C&B cylinder installed a velocity of 818 fps. Measurements were taken ca. 2 meters in front of the muzzles to exclude false readings.
Remember with the Thuer you are using the same gun, just exchange the cylinders.
Compared to the cartridge cylinder bullets from the C&B cylinder are just 4 % slower. The difference can be explained by the gass/pressure loss backwards through the nipples.
Bootsie

[batjka]

WOW!!! You have a Thuer? Man, I envy you!
Where did you get it? Can a simple mortal find one? I would love to own one of these.

The page below provides some info on Thuer and gives velocities as well. Is this your page?

Page:
http://www.1960nma.org/Conversions/C...n-11.02.10.htm


Thank you for posting the velocities. This proves a point that there's not much of a difference between cartridge .45 and C&B .44 as far as the energy figures are concerned. The energy is 315 ft lb out of a cartridge and 291 ft lb out of a C&B.

[Gaucho Gringo]

It is probably his because if I remember correctly Bootsie's handle a few years back used to Long Johns Wolf or something like that.

[Bootsie]

Batjka & all: yes www.1960nma.org is my page.
And yes, I used "Bootsie" a couple of years ago and registered here with taht name back then. Changed the name to Long Johns Wolf. Wanted to do that here as well but don't know how to do it?!
Bootsie aka Long Johns Wolf

[shafter]

I've heard that the cap and ball is in the neighborhood or 380 and 38spl. The 45 colts that can be safely fired out of a conversion cylinder are around or a little less than 45acp. It seems that the .44 would be significantly underpowered but you have to remember that the soft round ball will flatten and cause a real nasty wound.

I'd use a .44 if it was all I had available but I would prefer the 45 colt even with the cowboy loads.
P.S. The soft lead will do a job on 2-legged threats but I'm skeptical of its performance on 4-legged critters.

[batjka]

Shafter, as you have seen from previous posts, the ballistics of a .44 C&B revolver loaded with a conical bullet are very very close to ballistics of a .45 LC revolver.
Bootsie's experiments show that there's only a 4% reduction in velocity as compared to a cartridge.
So if you load a bullet of a same weight into your C&B revolver, on top of the same powder charge, you'll be good to go.

[shafter]

Yeah I didn't realize you guys were talking conicals. I guess thats what happens when you don't have time to read all the posts. I've never really thought about using conicals with from a BP handgun. I'll have to check it out. Cabelas's would likely carry some right?