CW45 stovepipe issues

[Mausermolt]

I bought this pistol brand new about 6 months ago. ive run several different types of self defense loads through it, 185grn mostly with no issues. a few months ago i took it out to let a friend of mine shoot it because he is looking for a concealed pistol and he liked my little CW45. of course im not going to blow through 25$ worth of ammo just to "see if he likes it" so i just grabbed a box of my handloads. 99% of my reloads are 230 grn plated bullets over 5.4 grains of Win 231 is my plinking load that works great in my 1911.

the problem was about once every mag it would stovepipe and crush the spent case. but only with my reloads. ive run about 100 rnds of the 185 grain personal defence loads without a hiccup

Are the springs so stiff in the Kahr pistols that they wont shoot light/medium 45 loads? or is something wrong with my pistol?

[kahrguy]

Sound like a ammo issue. Is the kahr fired enough rounds to soften up the heavy recoil spring. Soft loads in a low round count kahr can cause short strokes. Does it cycle them ether by hand or with the release every time? If so you may not be getting a good full slide motion. Is the case against the breach or under it.

You may get a quicker answer at Kahr Talk . Standard recoil springs on a 1911 will allow a slow 780 or 800fps load to function . Might not be hot enough in the kahr. My first kahr came from a T'd off owner of a cw9 . It would not cycle when shooting. Turned out to be ether his match ammo load problem or shooter problem. A say ammo as he's a old seasoned match shooter. That same pistol has been 100% for me for years.

I don't have a 45 version yet but know others that had the same type problem with light bullet weigth or light loads in new or low round count small kahrs.

[Elerius]

Not sure how long you've been reloading, do you crimp your .45's? I don't need to crimp my 9mm to get normal speeds but doing the same in 45 with my Para 1911 was causing stovepipes like the ones you're describing. Crimping the casings fixed the problem

[Mausermolt]

Kahrguy: Interesting enough i had some Hornady Zombiemax ammo that would almost get stuck in the chamber and i would have to really yank on the slide(or shoot it) to get the live round out. every other ammo ive tried dosent do that and interestingly enough Hornady Critical Defense didnt do it either! all other ammo cycle fine by hand.

that was the only cycling issue i had, but that ammo is not where my stovepipes came form.

Kahr guy what did you do to fix the cw9?

Elerius: yup, slight crimp, just enough to remove the flare. as close to mil-spec ball ammo as i could get as my 1911 is a GI.

oh and some of these reloads i ran through had Rainier "Lead Safe" HP 230grn slugs. stovepiped all the same. but it fed just fine

[SpareMag]

I don't know about the CW45, but Kahrs in general are said to have a legendarily long, and in my case, VERY long breakin period. While my CW9 has run perfectly from day one, my KP380 took about 600 rounds before it sorted itself out.

Kahr support was very good, they sent a replacement recoil spring, which I don't think helped much, but Kahrs are more of an exercise in building a long-term relationship, not a quick tumble out of the box.

Now, once my threshhold was hit...and there was a VERY noticeable difference in the feel of the pistol when it got sorted, the Kahr has been wonderful.

This may or may not be related to your issue, but when people write about Kahr issues, it is usually with newer acquisitions, not ones which have a few hundred rounds down the pipe.

[larryf1952]

I've got a CW9 and a CW45. The CW9 was purchased first and has been 100% since the first shot...about 800 rounds ago. The .45 hasn't been shot as much, but it has also been a stellar performer.

I believe that Kahrguy hit on the right answer when he mentioned that lower velocity loads that work well in larger guns may not have the energy to reliably operate short action guns like the Kahrs. I reload my own ammo, and I have never fired a factory round through either gun. In the 9mm, I load and shoot 115 grain JHP's. In the .45, I load and shoot 185 grain JHP's. Those are the only bullets that I shoot in both of those calibers, and I load them to "combat" velocities and pressure levels.

In 9mm, with the 115 JHP, this means somewhere in the 1150 to 1175fps range. In the .45, with the 185 grain bullet, it means that I load in the 950 to 1050fps range. With certain powders, it's relatively easy to achieve even higher velocities while remaining within safe pressure limits. I don't like to share loads for obvious reasons, but my 185 grain .45 load uses over 6 grains of 231.

The recoil springs in both of my CW's "feel" stiffer than those in my full size guns. I'm not a Kahr engineer, but I'd surmise that they require more energy and a sharper impulse to reliably cycle a short action.

I'm often leery when guns that I'm interested in owning get bad reviews from people who have trouble with them out of the box. But, my wariness turns to surprise when I take a chance and buy one, and it works perfectly for me. I have to believe that part of the reason is that I work at trying to duplicate a round that uses a bullet type and shape, and duplicates a velocity for which the gun was designed.

I may be completely off track and out of my freakin' mind, but so far, I rarely have a problem with the operation of any of my guns, and I have a lot of guns.

[IdahoG36]

I had a Kahr P45 3 years ago that would not run reliably on lower powered target loads. It would stovepipe.
My carry ammo was 230gr Speer Gold Dot, and it functioned 100% reliably with those. So, I started shooting Speer Lawman 230 fmj through it when plinking. The Lawman mimics the Gold Dot load in a fmj practice round, and the P45 functioned 100% reliably when shooting them. Switching to a higher powered fmj loading fixed my stovepipe issue.

[Wreck-n-Crew]

5.4 GRNS is plenty enough to cycle.

Likely that the rounds were exposed to moisture?

Does the pop sound lighter than usual?

Already kind of established it only does it with the reloads

[kahrguy]

mausermolt Sorry I have not checked back. When I bought the cw9 from the trouble owner all I did was clean , lube and shoot a different ammo that offers more velocity from a short barrel with a mid weight bullet.

That one reason I try tell tell people with a new kahr use a mid weight quality ammo for the first 100 rounds then once they soften up it may also run the lower powerd cheap stuff or pet handloads.

wreck-n-crew His load may be strong enough OR it may not in a a new kahr. That is a mild load in a longer barrel but how that powder burns in a short barrel my be the problem.

In a kahr also crimp your loads. That extra strong recoil spring on stove piped loads can be shorter even with a mild crimp. Check them.

larryf1952 Good info for new kahr owners and firearms in general.

[Mausermolt]

All of my ammo is kept in old factory boxes then stored inside ammo cans in my den, so I'm sure ur didn't get wet. Maybe I'll try a 185 grain load and see if that fixes the problem. But at the same time, I have no use for a gun that is picky on ammo. It's a great pistol I'll give it that, but I don't really want to load a few boxes of plinking ammo for a gun I don't really plink with.
I do want a pistol that will run with standard 230 grn ball ammo. If it won't eat 230's I'm going to send it to the next guy.

[Wreck-n-Crew]

wreck-n-crew His load may be strong enough OR it may not in a a new kahr. That is a mild load in a longer barrel but how that powder burns in a short barrel my be the problem.

Maximum load on a 230 GRN plated bullet using Winchester 231 before exceeding chart load is 5.3 GRNS and he is running @ 5.4 GRN. The load is not to light.

230 GR. HDY FMJ FP Winchester 231 .451" 1.200" 4.2 751 13,800 CUP 5.3 832 16,800 CUP

Even Lead,

230 GR. LRN Winchester 231 .452" 1.200" 4.3 699 12,200 CUP 5.3 834 16,900 CUP

I have used 5.3 GRN of 231 with a 230 GRN Round and cycled perfectly and with full energy in a 1911 with a heavy Wolfe Spring. Even heavier than The CW45

Has to be something else causing it other than load.

[kahrguy]

wreck n crew. To reload ammo and then show the load but not state velocity when asked means you and I really don't know how that load works in a cw45 . I have a 20lb spring in my 5" 45 and it is lite compared to racking even a cw9 kahr. Till we and the OP know what kind of velocity he is getting is all a quess if that ammo has enough balls to function in the pistol . . but I would have tried different factory hardball loads first not a home load.

Let him sell the pistol maybe he will have better luck with a xd45s. Or some 3 or 3 1/2" inch 1911.

A buddy runs reloads in one of his 40sw comp guns. Most of his loads will not function in his cw40 kahr got to change powders to something that burned better , faster for a shorter barrel. . My first one kahr came from a guy using his standard home brewed practice ammo and it would not run and I got a heck of a deal. And ammo change with this kahrs both cleared up the problem. Since you know the load well what kind of velocity does it get in a 3 1/2" barrel new kahr. Not from a 4 1/2 or 5 " brand B.

I might be the pistol will work fine using clays or titegroup , blue dot or pistol power but not with 231 in that short barrled pistol. Ya got'a test some loads , or not !! I guess.

I would have.

[Mausermolt]

I don't have access to a chronograph anymore but last time I checked them out of my 1911 they were at 785 fps average. Also the 5.4 grn load is a medium load in the Hornady book I have. They recommend 5.1 to 5.6 for 231

[Hunter_17]

I have cw45 shot many rounds including reloads at the min and it all work well.

My buddy has a cw45 and it won't shoot the hornady zombie max loads

[6.8]

Do those Zombie bullets have some wierd coating on them? Maybe that's why they get hung up? Just wondering

[Mausermolt]

I don't think the Zombiemax are anything special. I've been told they are just Hornadycritical defense with a green tip. That's obviously not true because Critical defense will cycle by hand without a problem.

[Wreck-n-Crew]

wreck n crew. To reload ammo and then show the load but not state velocity when asked means you and I really don't know how that load works in a cw45 .

A max load is a max load on any 45 acp and recoil is comparable. IF the gun wont recycle max loaded reloads it wont cycle most all factory standard ammo either.I load 45 myself.

The FPS is 832 according to the data load chart here: http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp That's plenty fast for a 230 GRN 45.

Ask any re-loader and they will confirm that according to the load given, there will be as much recoil energy as a factory load.

What I can tell you about a 45 it is a different round in that it is a low pressure round. Unlike other Semi-autos the 45 ACP pressures stay around 17,000 CUP just 2000 more than a 380, Whereas the 9mm reach into the low 30,000 CUP range.

You cant overload a 45 like you can the rest and when you load to the max according to load data charts there is no where to go safely.

Are the springs so stiff in the Kahr pistols that they wont shoot light/medium 45 loads? or is something wrong with my pistol?

Because of the aforementioned and IMHO I believe neither and that the reloads have a flaw preventing them from cycling properly.

Also the 5.4 grn load is a medium load in the Hornady book I have. They recommend 5.1 to 5.6 for 231

.2 GRNS will not take you from a medium load to a max load. If you have 5.4 GRNS loaded and the max is 5.6, the difference recoil will be minimal at best.

Light loads should start @ 4.1 GRN starting load.

Is it possible your scale was off and you loaded it light? (don't see where this was asked yet)

Everything with the extraction/ejection problem points to the reloads unlike the Zombies which were feeding issues and I agree they were different.

[Mausermolt]

The scale i used is a digital scale cross checked with a beam scale. so i dont think the load is off. like i said before. my Hornady book shows the max load of 5.6, and along with the chronograph of high 700 fps range, i believe im using a safe load. this load also works fine in my brothers XDm and his and several other friends 1911's which brings me back to the pistol having a problem...

[745SW]

Me thinks your handloads are too light. I calculated a muzzle energy in the area of 250 to 319. Used a muzzle velocity of 700 fps and 790 because of no specifics.

Max for 45ACP appears to be about 421.

Here’s the ballistics info I generally use because its one of the most extensive in terms of calibers. Formula for MZ (muzzle energy) is towards the top of the page.

http://www.korabrno.cz/bal-info.html

[Nick_C_S]

It's not the load. 5.4g W231 should be just fine. I use 231 a LOT with .45; and have done so for many years. 5.4 isn't my exact recipe that has worked great for me for a couple decades, but it's darn close enough for sure.

I am wondering however, if you use a Lee Factory Crimp Die? I'm not trying to steer this string into a debate of the effectiveness of the Lee FCD - I'm really not.

I just want to know if the case is straight before it goes into the pipe. My thinking is: if it's not right going in, it might not act right going out. Just sayin'.

[Walt Sherrill]

A stovepipe generally means the round has been fed properly, fired properly, and started to extract properly, with the next round about to start up the ramp, but [U]something has caused the round being extracted to be dropped before it hits the ejector./U]

With so many things seemingly going right, I don't understand how a "load" or "crimp" issue might be a part of the problem. Especially since it's happening irregularly, such as once per mag... (1 in 7 or so rounds, etc.)

Please note: I'm not arguing that it's NOT a load or crimp issue, but only that in "theory" it seems unlikely. Can someone offer an explanation or rationale for WHY either of those two issues might be a cause of the problem?

Could it be that there was something wrong with the cases/rims of the "stovepiped" rounds?

Some years back Winchester White Box ammo had a slightly different extractor groove than most other ammo, and it would drive some of my guns NUTS -- those rounds not extracting properly. If those cases got mixed in with other cases, and were reloaded it could lead to the sort of "random" problem described here. A new extractor spring helped with the gun that was having the biggest problem, and I quit shooting WWB in my other guns. (I don't think the rims, nowadays, are different.)

My thinking is: if it's not right going in, it might not act right going out. Just sayin'.

Worth thinking about, but wouldn't chambering of the round, "straighten" things up (leaving it aligned properly) -- or cause feed problems if it didn't?

.

[Mausermolt]

No Lee dies here, my dies are actually a frankenstein set from a box of random die parts. the seater is RCBS the decap and spreader die is Pacific i think, and i dont remember the resizing die brand.

Here is another clue. my brother hijacked my pistol out of the gunsafe the other day just to play about at the range. he reloads 45 ACP also but he uses titegroup and Unique for his 45 acp loads. he said it was doint the exact same thing with his handloads also. he uses 230 grain plated bullets also and he said he has clocked his loads at just over 800. and he has a RCBS carbide die set.

I think i may have got a lemon here....im going to run some factory 230 grain target ammo through it just to make sure both my brother and i are competent reloaders :P
next step would be to contact Kahr and see if they will do anything for me. if not...by by CW45...its too bad because i really like that little piece

[745SW]

How about using a reduced power recoil spring for your handloads and see how that works before saying by by. And/or a higher power recoil spring to see if it aggravates the issue.

[Nick_C_S]

Worth thinking about, but wouldn't chambering of the round, "straighten" things up (leaving it aligned properly) -- or cause feed problems if it didn't?

Yeah, I don't know. I was approaching the problem by first making sure everything that can be controlled, was. Maximize the "known good's," as it were.

One thing I know for sure: I have three S&W 686's, and not a single one has ever stovepiped on me ;p

[Walt Sherrill]

Have you tried the ammo mentioned in the original post in another gun? (A friend's .45, perhaps, or another .45 you own?)

Stovepipes are usually caused by by crappy cases or crappy extractors (or weak extractor springs if springs are used to tension the extractor). Something is causing the extractor to lose its grip on just some rounds, but not the others. If it was mag- or recoil-spring-related, you'd expect the problem to occur more regularly, as the gun doesn't know which round it's firing...