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Old August 3, 2005, 02:04 PM   #1
skidmark
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Do you want a used SIG .45?

http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet...=1031783565272

From the July 30, 2005 paper:

Quote:
Henrico police plan to use smaller guns
.40-caliber pistols replace .45s; ease of use, reliability cited
BY MARK BOWES
TIMES-DISPATCH STAFF WRITER
Saturday, July 30, 2005


Related
Audio report: Spokesperson for Henrico Police weapons

A change in police firepower is coming soon to Henrico County. Beginning next month, the county police department will end its 15-year relationship with German gun manufacturer Sig Sauer and begin one with Austrian gunmaker Glock.

As a result, the department will replace its standard-issue sidearm, switching from an eight-shot .45-caliber semiautomatic Sig Sauer pistol to a 16-shot .40-caliber Glock.

The decision was based on several factors, not the least of which was a growing concern about the .45's reliability, police said.

"We've had a lot of problems with the Sig Sauer .45 over the years," said Henrico Lt. G.H. "Hutch" Hutchison, the department's range director. "More recently it's been with magazine feeding problems, and we've had some major parts break in the guns."

"It got to the point where the officers' confidence in the weapon was somewhat lower that it should be," he added.

In response to a Freedom of Information request on the department's gun switch, Henrico Police Chief Henry W. Stanley Jr. released a written summary of the transition. The report said that in addition to magazine failures, other gun problems included:

signs of abnormal wear on weapons only a year old;
broken trigger springs, trigger bars and extractors;
a gun with an incorrect part installed.
Police said the problems surfaced during firearm qualification sessions for officers at the range. "We have never had a gun that has failed in a street situation," Hutchison said.

Sig Arms representatives worked with police to resolve the issues, including replacing all the guns' magazines, but the problems persisted and were never corrected to the department's satisfaction, the report said.

"While Sig Arms was unable to specifically identify what was causing the abnormal wear and parts and magazine failures, they indicated that the ammunition being used by the division might be a problem," the report said.

The department conducted "extensive ammunition testing," police said, and "did not identify the ammunition as a concern."

The department then began testing a variety of alternative weapons and decided on the .40-caliber Glock. The department is buying 557 of the Glock 22 models, and 50 of the slightly smaller Glock 23s.

The Glock "was the preferred weapon of the officers that we brought [to the range] to test-fire the guns," Hutchison said.

The Glocks were easier to handle for smaller shooters, especially female officers. A slightly smaller, lighter weapon was needed "as our police department becomes more diverse," Hutchison said.

Police also liked the .40-caliber round. It "in some ways ballistically outperforms the .45 ammunition we used to carry, as far as penetration and expansion," Hutchison said. "We felt the .40-caliber bullet was the best way to go because [it's] the perfect marriage of high capacity and large caliber."

The switch in guns will cost the department almost nothing, officials said. Town Police Supply of Richmond, the vendor supplying the Glocks, is taking the department's .45 Sig Sauer pistols in an even trade. The .45s are about 18 months old.

Each officer will receive a new gun, three magazines with 15 rounds each, a night sight, new holster and a magazine pouch. The value of those items to the department comes to more than $300,000.

The only expense the department will incur is $52,239 for new holsters and magazine pouches, but that money is coming from assets seized from drug dealers, police said. In addition, Glock has agreed to train the department's firearms technicians at no cost.

Officers will also get a new gadget -- a $100 flashlight attachment that fits on the end of their guns. Those were purchased separately several months earlier.

The devices will make it easier for officers to use their guns and flashlights at the same time. Instead of officers carrying a flashlight in one hand and a gun in the other, "their weapon will now have a light attached to it," Hutchison said.

Henrico police will be the third Richmond-area police agency to carry the Glock. Sheriff's deputies in Henrico and Chesterfield counties also use the gun.

Chesterfield police carry .40-caliber Sig Sauers, Richmond police carry .357-caliber Sig Sauers, and Richmond sheriff's deputies carry 9mm Sig Sauers. Hanover sheriff's deputies carry the .45-caliber Sig Sauer, the same weapon Henrico is replacing.

Henrico police will begin phasing in the Glocks the week of Aug. 22.


Contact Mark Bowes at (804) 649-6450 or [email protected]
Town Police Supply of Richmond is located at 3541 Courthouse Road, Chesterfield VA 23832 804-745-6433.

I don't work for them, but have bought stuff there before. They are a small shop but all my contacts have been positive.

stay safe.

skidmark
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Old August 3, 2005, 03:16 PM   #2
Ala Dan
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Sounds too me like Hutch's officers just wanted a weapon with a rail?

But, police officers in general are known to be the worlds worst in not
carrying for their weapon's. Often times more than not, a PO will
arrive home, take off his/her duty rig with weapon still in holster and
not think about it again until its time for the next shift. I doubt very
seriously whether the SIG P220's all broke or malfunctioned in an 18
month period. Sounds too me like there is a __________ in the
old wood pile.

Best Wishes,
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Old August 3, 2005, 03:19 PM   #3
michael t
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Can't be Sig's never break or have problems. PD just wanted a chance to get some 40 cal Glocks so they can enjoy the KABOOMS also. I bet Glock won't give you or me a new Glock for one of our old pistols even up.
People think PD's get Glocks because their the best How about they get Glocks because the company will do whatever it takes to get their pistol in front of John Q Public. I will give Glock credit they are good at advertiseing by way of Police, After All If Police Carry Must Be Good. So I best run right out and buy one.
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Old August 3, 2005, 03:24 PM   #4
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I gotta say.... it is seeming like Glock knows how to push their guns. Here we will trade you your "busted old" gun for our shiny new ones. GREAT marketing. Seriously what better way to get your gun recognized and popular. I would be mad at them, cause i don't care for glocks and PD's should be using american guns, but "free glock with trade in of old gun" is way too smart of a move by them.
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Old August 3, 2005, 03:32 PM   #5
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It seems consistant with previous postings concerning police troubles with P220 durability and reliability issues.
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Old August 3, 2005, 05:51 PM   #6
Ala Dan
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by ATW525:

Quote:
"It seems consistant with previous postings concerning police troubles with P220 durability and reliability issues."
Pardon me Sir, but I carried a West German SIG-SAUER .45 caliber
P220A on duty from the summer of 1988, until the summer of 1997
with NO malfunctions; and NO issues. It still looks as good and
performs the same as it did from day 1.

Today, it serves as my primary CCW piece; and don't you think for
one minute that I would carry a piece that I'm not completely
comfortable with.

I think you are referring to crack slides found mostly on the stamped
sheet metal slides of very early P226's? Those issues have long since
been resolved.
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Old August 3, 2005, 06:05 PM   #7
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No, I was infact reffering to previous posts on this very same forum about this very same problem with the P220... lol

Like in this thread
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Old August 3, 2005, 07:21 PM   #8
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16 40S&W vs. 8 45ACP Now they can miss twice as much.



(16 round 40S&W? I guess they mean 15+1? Then why isn't the .45 9 rounds, 8+1? Old mags?)
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Old August 4, 2005, 07:10 AM   #9
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Oh my gosh.....

Could this be that verification everyone wanted about the recent problems with the 220R series guns????

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=173385
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Old August 4, 2005, 10:17 AM   #10
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3 points

1. I'm glad I held of buying a 220. Has anyone ever heard of any problems with the 239?

2. This news seems to surprise many people reinforcing the fact that Sig's are usually great guns.

3. I still want to own a 226 in 9mm one day.
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Old August 4, 2005, 11:10 AM   #11
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A couple of points

1. The article says the supplier is willing to trade the used Sigs for the New Glocks even up, not Glock. The reason for this is probably the fact that the Sig is over priced enough new to still be valued at the new price of the Glocks.

2. The reason the Sigs are overpriced to begin with is that a lot of people with no more knowlege of guns than the next guy think they are diamonds beyond reproach. ( i.e. I own one so its the best.)

3. Glocks have about a 40% share of the law enforcement market because they are the best weapon available for law enforcement officers, and the price makes for a great bonus.

4. THIS REPLY IS COMING FROM A FIFTEEN YEAR POLICE OFFICER WHO HAS CARRIED EVERYTHING FROM A COMMANDER TO THE SIG 229 .40 THAT I AM CURRENTLY ISSUED. A LOT, AND I MEAN A LOT OF COPS, PEOPLE WHO HAVE TO RELY ON THEIR WEAPONS IN HARMS WAY A LOT MORE, REPEAT A LOT MORE THAT CCW HOLDERS, GUN WRITERS AND SELF PROCLAIMED GUN EXPERTS CARRY GLOCKS BECAUSE IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE AMONG THE MAJORITY OF THE BOYS IN BLUE AND BROWN THAT GLOCK MAKES THE MOST RELIABLE HANDGUN OF ANY CURRENT HANDGUN MAKER, AND MANY ME INCLUDED WOULD GIVE YOU 2 SIGS, COLTS, SPRINGFIELDS, ETC. FOR ONE GLOCK IN ANY CALIBER.
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Old August 4, 2005, 11:43 AM   #12
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I think what is trying to be said is this.

"Glock is Teh Ro><oRz!!!! Glock > All+joo!!!!!"

For all that don't understand that qoute, your lucky, for those that do....
Btw this is sarcasm, i honestly can't stand them.
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Old August 4, 2005, 11:48 AM   #13
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There are cops that will give me two Colts, Springers or Sigs for a Glock?? I've been looking for an excuse to buy a Glock for the longest time, and I can't think of a better one than being able to trade it for two real guns!!

Edit: J/k folks... Glocks are real guns, too
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Old August 4, 2005, 04:28 PM   #14
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If the 1st post in this thread seems "seems consistent" with Obiwan's post in the other thread, it is because both refer to the same police dept.
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Old August 4, 2005, 05:07 PM   #15
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Quote:
A LOT, AND I MEAN A LOT OF COPS, PEOPLE WHO HAVE TO RELY ON THEIR WEAPONS IN HARMS WAY A LOT MORE, REPEAT A LOT MORE THAT CCW HOLDERS, GUN WRITERS AND SELF PROCLAIMED GUN EXPERTS CARRY GLOCKS BECAUSE IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE AMONG THE MAJORITY OF THE BOYS IN BLUE AND BROWN THAT GLOCK MAKES THE MOST RELIABLE HANDGUN OF ANY CURRENT HANDGUN MAKER, AND MANY ME INCLUDED WOULD GIVE YOU 2 SIGS, COLTS, SPRINGFIELDS, ETC. FOR ONE GLOCK IN ANY CALIBER.
I believe this is the case because a lot, repeat a lot of police officers get their information from gun writers and self proclaimed gun experts. We all know that talking to a gun expert makes you one yourself. Forget common knowlege...it's way too common. Go with your personal experience. My Glock 23 wasn't as reliable as my HK USP. My Glock 20 is hanging in there. If you want to trade a couple of Sigs, Colts and Springfields for it...PM me.
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Old August 4, 2005, 05:19 PM   #16
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Uh oh. I sense a "my gun is better than your gun" rant coming on.

Any manufactured item can have defects and can fail. Any.
There are no studies that say the SIG is less reliable than any other gun and lots of experience to the contrary (my own included).
The plural of anecdote is not evidence.
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Old August 4, 2005, 05:31 PM   #17
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Oh yea COPS are sooo smart.
Last night while shooting my 1911 and the guy in the lane next to me takes a look at my ammo.
"Excuse me but are those hollowpoints?"
"yea"
"But those are illegal. Only us cops can use those. The geneva conv......blah blah blah."


I so wish I was making this up. but no.
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Old August 4, 2005, 07:17 PM   #18
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This article confirms what I have heard from other police armorers regarding the alloy P220. The gun is simply not a high round count weapon.

The Smith 4566 is superior from a durability and reliability standpoint.
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Old August 4, 2005, 07:19 PM   #19
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You are talking about the same gun that some yokes got together and shot 100k rounds one day through it without stopping? When they were done they measured its accuracy and it was actually more accurate.
But no, it isnt a high round count gun. It's a worthless POS. Might as well buy a Jennings or Lorcin. If anyone has one send it to me and I'll give you fifty bucks.
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Old August 4, 2005, 07:52 PM   #20
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Are you talking about the 10,000 round test where the firing pin broke at round 6,000?

Good one. Thanks for playing.
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Old August 4, 2005, 08:09 PM   #21
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Quote:
This article confirms what I have heard from other police armorers regarding the alloy P220. The gun is simply not a high round count weapon.
Do you really think these guns, which are approx. a year old, actually have a high round count? Are we talking about a design that will not hold up or factory defects (or perhaps neither)?
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Old August 4, 2005, 08:29 PM   #22
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Quote:
Are you talking about the 10,000 round test where the firing pin broke at round 6,000?
Yeah. Real POS. Never happen with a Jennings or Glock or Lorcin. As I said, ship me all ya got.
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Old August 4, 2005, 08:33 PM   #23
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The Glock is the king of the idiot guns. Not saying that Glock owners are idiots, but rather "Any idiot can use it" which quite often what's needed for police and military work, as it's users more often than not will not be "gun people." For that reason alone they are great. It's a great tool. From a
"shooters" prospective it's passable and it works well enough. I've always said a Glock is like a good hammer. You don't think about your hammer, and you don't normally have pride in ownership of your hammer. And you never fully appreciate it until you're forced to work with a crappy hammer.


From my own experience, the Glock has not been 100% reliable, where the Sigs still are. (3 Glocks vs. 5 Sigs)
Given enough time though, everything will cough.
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Old August 4, 2005, 11:04 PM   #24
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Quote:
Are you talking about the 10,000 round test where the firing pin broke at round 6,000?
Do you mean the 10,000 round test described in this article that does not mention a broken firing pin?
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Old August 4, 2005, 11:31 PM   #25
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http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=176997

SIG haters who refer to that torture test only dig themselves a bigger hole, anybody with common sense will look at that test and see a magnificent firearm. I would say that 99 percent of SIG owners believe they have the finest handgun ever made (within reason, its no Korth Combat Magnum for 6000 dollars).
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