Im disapointed in the Savage 10T chamber

[Longshot4]

I have 30 single fireformed Lapua 6mm Creedmoor cases. I'm in the process of giving them a second light forming. So I want to have a tight chamber but it seems to be mighty loose. I sized the cases with a Redding type S Match die set using the Redding competition shell holders. They allow me to start .010 backed off of the shoulder. The bolt was loose before and after sizing. There was no sign of the shoulder being touched. Bolt closes with no resistance. Using the 0.010 shell holder I was expecting that the bolt would not accept the case. Although the cases were fired for the first time in the same Savage.

Is this a case of a oversize chamber?

[Bart B.]

Compare the case headspace with a fired case to one resized with the .010" shellholder and the shellholder stopped against the die bottom.

What's the difference?

[Longshot4]

My once fired and sized Lapua cases go up into the die. The once fired Lapua cases that were not sized go up .520 short into the die.

So the case sides are being sized. when I compare side by side I cant tell any difference in shoulder. Although it should be no more than .010 bump.

I don't feel the bump ore resistance. Although booth are fired in same chamber.

So Lapua is suppose to be tuff brass. Perhaps it takes 2 charging's to get them to tighten up to chamber shoulder?

[hounddawg]

if you want a "tight fit" why not just neck size

[Unclenick]

Longshot,

If you don't have a commercial case comparator or an RCBS Precision Mic, take a spacer and caliper and compare the fired cases to your resized one. Your once-fired cases will have filled the chamber and then sprung back as much as a couple of thousandths. Firing them over and over by neck sizing-only, they will eventually get tighter and reflect your exact chamber dimensions better.

Also, compare a fired case to a factory new case (either an empty case or to a case on a loaded cartridge). Almost always, the new commercial cases are about 0.002-0.003" shorter than SAAMI minimum headspace. Add about 0.004" to that for a factory-new chamber that is maximum.



Finally, the Savage action uses a barrel jam nut to set how far the barrel screws into the receiver, making the headspace adjustable on the Savage action. You can get a vice block set and special wrenches for the different nut forms so you can loosen it, screw the barrel in deeper using a headspace GO gauge to limit how far, and thus correct the headspace and tighten the nut again. Most gunsmiths can do this, but you can also send the rifle to Savage to have them redo it, and they won't charge you for that on a new rifle.

[Marco Califo]

I like Savage rifles, but, have noticed chamber variations. Neck size, consider seating longer. Have you tried backing out your FL sizing die?

[Longshot4]

I did pick up a poorman's spacer. Ill size it up and see what's going on. Backing off on the sizing die should be coming. Got to go and get er done.

Ill be back later. Thanks

[Bart B.]

A popular die height adjustment is a quarter turn, .018 inch. Way too much.

Read post 16 in.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...ring+label+002

Here's Unclenick's labels

https://s860.photobucket.com/user/je...ent-1.jpg.html

.002" Label on a sizing die

[Longshot4]

Well I tried to find a spacer long enough to use with a bullet seated so I could measure shoulders. No such luck So I tried to use a 3/8 copper tube but I haven't the tooling to cut square enough for what I want it for. So I purchased 2 spacers and stacked them on the shoulders with the case spacers and calipers laying flat. I was able to wiggle the assembly to lowest readings.

My results are

I sized with Redding Type S MATCH Die, Redding .010 computation shell holder.

I measured from a Factory box Nosler loaded brass and once fired brass.
I also measured shoulders of Berger loaded rounds and once fired brass.
Also from a box of 100 new brass from Lapua I loaded and shot several rounds that I resized.

The measurements are the case with 2 spacers so I could measure with bullets. I continued using 2 spacers so as not to change tooling. For repeatability.

Live factory berger rounds with Lapua cases measured x3 at 2.808.
berger factory Lapua fired once. x3 at 2.810.
Nosler live Nosler cases. x3 at 2.810
Nosler from same box once fired. x3 at 2.810
Lapua from case of 100 sized but never assembled. 2.808
Lapua from case of 100 shot once and sized x3 at 2.810

The measuring was the best I was able to do with what I have.

It looks to me that 2.810 shows the size of the rifle chamber is equal to the die set with the .010 shell holder. So the chamber is cut to high end of spec.?

[Longshot4]

Do I understand this correctly? Using the Redding competition shell holder
.010 I am not able to bump my case shoulders back .002. Even though the .010 case holder is all ready holding the case out of the die .010. So since the fired cases and the sized cases shoulders don't change. If I want to bump the shoulders of the case I will need to place a .002" shim on top of the shell holder seat?

[Longshot4]

Ah All I need to do is back the die off one of those paper settings to get .002... closer for a bump?

[RC20]

What you need to do is follow what Unclenick showed you and find out what the shoulder measurement is on a fired case.

You don't know if you have a loose chamber or not as you are moving it back an unknown amount, possibly even the .010 as labeled (which is no less than .006 way too much if true)

But you don't know until you measure.

That is what the Compactor tools are for. Cabellas or Dicks or will have them in stock. Low cost and they tell you all you need to know as to what do do or where to go.

If its not clear U Tube is your friend.

[Charlie98]

I have a 10T in .308, I don't really have any problems with mine... but I don't get all excited about brass measurements... yet.

As an aside, you might head over to SavageShooters forum... if there is a known problem with the Savage, those guys will know about it and how to address it.

[Longshot4]

I have found that the cases before resized are the same size as the chamber. As I explained yesterday.

[Longshot4]

Mr. Bart what do you think about post 9

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by Longshot4

Mr. Bart what do you think about post 9

I think you should measure case head to shoulder immediately after sizing, not after loading it.

If you measure several cases resized with the same die and shellholder, there's often a .002" or more spread in dimension. That's caused by different amounts and type of case lube on each case as well as how long the case is in full into the die before it's pulled out

[Longshot4]

Thanks

[RC20]

As an aside, you might head over to SavageShooters forum... if there is a known problem with the Savage, those guys will know about it and how to address it.

There are very few on that site that are actually good.

There are a number who will throw a jerk opinion out as experts.

This is a better site and I can testify from having with a great deal of experience having built up 3 Savage rifles, worked with my brother on a couple more.

This is not a Savage issue, its a re-loader that does not get it and is ignoring what he is being told he needs to do first.

Until he puts the effort into understanding the real issue there is no helping him.

[Longshot4]

The assumer is on this sight tonight. What is it you don't understand RC?

[Longshot4]

I have loaded up the cases for the second fireforming. I will be much more observant on the processes. This is the first time I have used the Redding competition case holders. Yes I understand there are other ways to make adjustments for The bump. The last time I did it was a couple years ago. It was with a .002 feeler gage trimmed and placed under the case. This .010 shell holder is throwing a monkey wrench into what I thought would be simplicity. Although since I was ordering equipment I threw a few tools in to speed things up. I'm trying to develop loads for the Savage between other things going on. I must be doing a poor job of communicating with some of the group.

[Unclenick]

Just a 0.002" difference is small. I've seen some cases with different loading histories show that much variation coming out of the same die setup. So it seems like you are managing things pretty closely.

If it turns out that 2.810" is both what comes out of the chamber, as fired and is also what you get after resizing with the +0.010 shell holder, as your data seems to show, then what you want to do is go to the next Redding shell holder in the set, the +0.008" shell holder, to see if you start moving your 2.810" shoulders back to 2.808". That would constitute a -0.002 "bump" and will be a good brass-working minimum.

Here's an alternative explanation to what you are seeing:
You are getting essentially the same dimensions for both new commercial ammo and your resized cases. It is not unusual for a once-fired case to let you close a bolt freely because it normally springs back a couple of thousandths in length after firing. You would have to neck size it and refire it several times before it really filled the chamber size completely. But what it unusual is you have proven you are resizing the sides of the case. Doing that lengthens the head-to-shoulder dimension by squeezing the case narrower and longer. Then the shoulder in the sizing die makes contact and extrudes the shoulder back.

Since you are not seeing a case come out longer than 2.810", I think your die is meeting the case shoulder. And since that resizing is returning you to the new cartridge case size, it suggests your chamber is actually at the SAAMI minimum or very close to it now and that what is tripping you up is that your resizing die is on the short side or your +0.010" shell holder is mislabeled.

Let's prove this one way or the other. First, take your 0.000 shell holder and the +0.010" shell holder and measure both with your caliper. The latter one should be ten thousandths longer. If it isn't, you want to make an actual deck height measurement with the depth probe that sticks out of the back of the caliper beam to measure from the top of the deck to wher the case head rests. Sticking a feeler gauge in gives you a good way to rest something on the case head surface and then measure to the feeler gauge. Add the feeler gauge thickness to your calibper reading and the +0.000 shell holder should giver you 0.125" and the +0.010" holder should give you 0.135" deck height.

If all that checks out, do what I suggested and go to a +0.008" shell holder and see if you don't get your cases to shorten another -0.002 so you no longer have any 2.810" cases. All 2.808" or so. If that works, it makes it look like the die is a little short.

Another test you can make is to set the feeler gauge on top of one side of the shell holder deck and resize a fired case, stopping on the feeler gauge. When you measure the head to the shoulder, it should be longer than 2.810" because of being squeezed narrower along the sides, and this will confirm that the shoulder of the die is pushing it back which would confirm the die is short.

Finally, you can sacrifice one case (I would just clean a range pickup for this) by resizing it with the +0.000 shell holder to confirm it gets too short.

Let us know what happens? If the die is short, I'm sure Redding will make it right, if you need them too.

[RC20]

The assumer is on this sight tonight. What is it you don't understand RC?

Unclenick is his usual thorough and patient self.

Me? I would get a comparator, measure non fired case and then measure a fired case.

How many thousandths did it grow.

Then I would measure one of the .010 sized cases. How long is is?

Seems the simple approach to me but what the hey.

[hounddawg]

RC20 nailed it, no need to overcomplicate

[Unclenick]

If you guys read post #9, you will find he already did those measurements, just using the spacers and caliper instead of the "official" tool for the job. He got only 0.002" spread between cases and even unfired commercially loaded cartridges. That's what put me to thinking he might actually have a fairly tight chamber and something on the short side for a sizing die. Perhaps some form of small base die.

[RC20]

Sorry, I was not able to follow it.

Applause to Unclenick for doing so.

My apologies, I tend to dead nuts simple when I can get it. I saw far to much of the approach at work that in their case they wold get so off track that there was no understanding of what they were trying to prove.

I don't list my shoulder data either as I made my own adapters (modified them) so they have no relevance to the official ones, they just tell me what I need to know and where I need to go (and yes I left myself wide open on that comment0