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Old February 24, 2015, 02:34 PM   #51
T. O'Heir
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"...see them in movies, and we want one..." There's a lot of stuff like that. Smith 29's, my M1 Rifle and Carbine, the Jeep I had.
"...but your afternoon will not go as planned..." And it'll cost you in 5 figures.
"...$200 for a meal..." Wouldn't be eating for 6 weeks after.
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Old May 5, 2015, 06:42 PM   #52
johnfreeman
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one more reason

While cans are cool (but not nearly as cool as MGs) they also allow one to shoot in far more places than an unsuppressed gun, without drawing attention.
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Old May 21, 2015, 10:24 PM   #53
reticle
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Late to this thread, I know.... I bought my first suppressor as a curiosity. It was part of the HK Mark 23 and Knights OHG combo. I wasn't sure what to expect the first time I fired suppressed. Needless to say, it didn't sound like films from the seventies and eighties portrayed. I didn't really expect it to.

As to hearing safe, it depends on where you discharge the weapon. In the open range with nothing to bounce the sound back, mine is definitely hearing safe. It makes no more noise than a pneumatic framing nailer. Under a steel roof is still uncomfortable. Within a structure, I wouldn't want to fire it without hearing pro. More interesting to me was that the suppressor changed the sound so that unless you knew it was a gun, you'd likely not associate the sound with one. Of course this is 45acp and the projectiles are subsonic.

I bought my second suppressor for different reasons. My third I bought because it was only one of less than thirty ever made by KAC.
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Old May 21, 2015, 11:54 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reticle
In the open range with nothing to bounce the sound back, mine is definitely hearing safe.
No, it's not. You may think it sounds "hearing safe", but medical science tells us otherwise. Feel free to not wear hearing protection, shooting with your silencer is a lot better than shooting un-suppressed and it will probably take a lot of shooting to have any noticeable hearing loss. But claiming that it's "hearing safe" is incorrect and irresponsible; this is a public forum and lots of people look for advice here.

Read post #6 and post # 12 again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reticle
It makes no more noise than a pneumatic framing nailer.
A pneumatic framing nailer isn't "hearing safe" either, and it's loud enough to permanently damage your hearing over time. In fact, simply working the action or even just dry-firing some fireams produces a sound level over 100 dB, which is over the threshold for permanent hearing damage from repeated exposure.
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Old May 21, 2015, 11:56 PM   #55
Machineguntony
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I just purchased a suppressor, only because I wanted to make a cool gun project.

I am going to make a snow camo select-fire AR with a white suppressor.

In central Texas, we don't get much snow, but I saw it in a movie, and said, 'I don't have one of those.'

It is going to be the coolest gun ever. EVER.

*I would take Theos' advice. He's very scientifically knowledgable on the issue of suppressors.
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Old May 22, 2015, 01:37 AM   #56
reticle
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Really Theohazard? I don't remember seeing you out there in the desert with me. What did your meter read when I was firing? Was I firing wet or dry? How many grains of which powder did I charge my cartridges?

The fact is you don't know what I experienced. I said in the open range mine was definitely hearing safe. Slamming my truck door was louder. Unless you expect the average person to never be exposed to that level of noise, I don't think you need to play the pedant. The internet has been around long enough that I think even the most remedial user knows the info there in should be taken with a grain of salt.

You may have had good intentions, your delivery could some work.
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Old May 22, 2015, 03:13 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reticle
Really Theohazard? I don't remember seeing you out there in the desert with me. What did your meter read when I was firing? Was I firing wet or dry? How many grains of which powder did I charge my cartridges.
None of that matters, not unless you loaded your cartridges so light that they don't even remotely resemble regular pistol loads.

There's no need to be upset. The fact is that there is no silencer on the market that is "hearing safe" using normal ammo. Period. Even a silenced .22 rifle fired wet outdoors using subsonic .22 LR ammo will still be above the medically safe limit for noise-induced hearing loss over time.

You're using a .45 ACP KAC silencer, which fired wet from the best host possible on a good day outdoors with favorable testing equipment will meter 125 dB at best. That's FAR above the level that will permanently damage your hearing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reticle
The fact is you don't know what I experienced.
No, but I know this: Either you experienced something that nobody else firing a pistol silencer has ever experienced, or your silencer wasn't hearing safe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reticle
Slamming my truck door was louder.
You're trying to use your ears to determine whether your silencer was "hearing safe", but that doesn't work very well. Actual decibel measurements have shown time and time again that the best pistol silencers on the market in the most favorable tests possible never meter below 120 dB. So either your car door is very loud or your ears aren't as good as a decibel meter at objectively measuring sound.

I hear this so often; people are convinced that their silencers are quieter than they actually are. And this is for two main reasons: First, they're mentally comparing the sound to what it sounds like unsuppressed, and the difference is huge. And second, the sound of a gun firing is much quicker and at a different pitch than many other sounds, so it seems quieter to the ear. But your Mk23 with your Knights suppressor made a sound that's similar in dB range to a jackhammer, even if your subjective experience tries to tell you otherwise. There's a reason why people use decibel meters to objectively measure sounds instead of their ears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reticle
You may have had good intentions, your delivery could some work.
If I have offended you, I apologize. But your post was incorrect and irresponsible, especially considering I already addressed this previously in this thread and provided good links to more information.

There is plenty more verifiable information on the internet provided by various scientific organizations that study hearing loss. And there are plenty of links to various tests of the decibel levels of suppressed firearms. Combine that information, and it's pretty easy to determine that there's no physical way possible that your silencer is "hearing safe", not unless you loaded your rounds FAR below anything that resembles a standard pistol load.
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Old May 22, 2015, 11:23 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theohazard
There's no need to be upset. The fact is that there is no silencer on the market that is "hearing safe" using normal ammo. Period. Even a silenced .22 rifle fired wet outdoors using subsonic .22 LR ammo will still be above the medically safe limit for noise-induced hearing loss over time.
The audiologist who tells you about the danger associated with a suppressed .22 rifle in an open field will also warn you about a similar danger from your telephone receiver or a diesel engine or a piano. I've been in teleconferences with another fellow with a voice so loud I had to bend away and have a finger in one ear like an artillery guy. My wife has an aunt who I am certain is a risk to my hearing, or at least my ability to listen to her. Modern life poses lots of moderate risks to one's hearing.

With firearms the risk one routinely faces is a painful level of noise with immediate and permanent damage that can leave a person grossly impaired over time. That's a difference of degree and kind.
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Old May 22, 2015, 11:50 AM   #59
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Zukiphile, I agree. The level of hearing loss one can expect from a suppressed .22 is extremely low and would require a lot of shooting to be noticable. Much of what we do in our normal lives probably causes more danger to our hearing. However, I'm simply providing context to the claims of silencers being "hearing safe".

The quietest .22 silencers using a rifle with subsonic .22 LR ammo meter in the 115 dB range. That's in the same dB range as a jackhammer or a chainsaw, and that's in a range that can easily damage your hearing pretty quickly. However, the saving grace is that the sound of the shot is very quick, so it would take a lot of shots to add up to noticable hearing loss.

And when you get up to the sound level of a suppressed centerfire pistol or rifle, the danger is much higher and the duration required to cause permanent hearing loss is much shorter.
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Old May 22, 2015, 01:49 PM   #60
Pond, James Pond
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I just wanted to post pictures of my daughter's toys...

... but unfortunately this rifle with a fat end bit got in the way...



Yeah.... they're just cool!!
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File Type: jpg CZs Rock.jpg (187.4 KB, 149 views)
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Old May 22, 2015, 02:11 PM   #61
Sharkbite
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Theo has forgotten more about Suppressors and their hosts then most of us know. Id ignore him at your peril on this subject.

I run a surppressed rifle as a primary weapon at work. I suppress my pistols cause its COOL!!
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Old May 22, 2015, 04:45 PM   #62
Theohazard
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Thanks Sharkbite! Though I'm often reminded of how much I don't know every time I visit some of the silencer-specific forums. Some of those guys have been doing this a lot longer than I have and have tons more experience, and a few of them even work for some of the major manufacturers.

This specific subject of silencers being "hearing safe" is one that has interested me ever since I had a learning experience a few years ago. At the time I still bought into the misleading and medically incorrect assertion made throughout the industry that any silencer under 140 dB is hearing safe (this is based on a misinterpretation of OSHA rules for noise exposure). I had a customer who was interested in buying a pistol can, and I mentioned that the one he was looking at was hearing safe. He told me that none of the cans we sold were actually "hearing safe". It turned out that he was a medical doctor who had experience with noise-related hearing loss. After that, it didn't take too much research for me to determine that he was right.

Now, the one area where I'd like to learn more is in the specifics regarding the exposure required to cause measurable hearing loss; gunshots are staccato and brief, so they're different than the constant noise that many of the exposure guidelines are based on. At some point I want to contact a few audiologists and ask them, because I haven't been able to find that specfic information online.
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Old August 20, 2015, 11:53 AM   #63
RCT
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Quote:
Zukiphile, I agree. The level of hearing loss one can expect from a suppressed .22 is extremely low and would require a lot of shooting to be noticable. Much of what we do in our normal lives probably causes more danger to our hearing. However, I'm simply providing context to the claims of silencers being "hearing safe".

The quietest .22 silencers using a rifle with subsonic .22 LR ammo meter in the 115 dB range. That's in the same dB range as a jackhammer or a chainsaw, and that's in a range that can easily damage your hearing pretty quickly. However, the saving grace is that the sound of the shot is very quick, so it would take a lot of shots to add up to noticable hearing loss.
I have to disagree with the talk about 22s.

We have a shop demo bolt action .22 that we fire suppressed with subsonic ammo and you simply would be shocked as to how quiet it is. Clapping your hands, listing to a phone call on your mobile phone or operating your vacuum cleaner is much louder. A pellet rifle is louder than this setup.

I submit that just walking out doors in a city or driving your car with the windows down would cause more damage.
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Old September 5, 2015, 02:54 AM   #64
Theohazard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCT
I have to disagree with the talk about 22s.

We have a shop demo bolt action .22 that we fire suppressed with subsonic ammo and you simply would be shocked as to how quiet it is. Clapping your hands, listing to a phone call on your mobile phone or operating your vacuum cleaner is much louder.
I wouldn't be shocked at all; I shoot suppressed .22 all the time. And when I use my Octane 9 on a .22 it's quieter than any .22 silencer I've ever heard. And no, clapping your hands, listening to a phone call, or running a vacuum cleaner isn't anywhere near as loud as a suppressed subsonic .22. There's no .22 silencer that can get the sound down below 110 dB, and most can't get it down below 115 dB. Those other sounds you mentioned don't even come close to 110 dB.

I'm always amazed at people who think that their ears are somehow a more precise and objective measuring tool than an actual decibel meter. But our ears are no match for actual scientific measurements of sounds.

And considering 110 - 120 dB is in the range that can easily damage your hearing fairly quickly from repeat exposure, it's pretty clear that even a silenced .22 isn't truly "hearing safe". Sure, it's probably not doing noticable damage during most shooting sessions, but it still produces dB levels that are above the threshold for permanent hearing loss from prolonged exposure.
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