Returning to BP shooting

DBotkin · June 2, 2007, 09:43 AM

I'm just returning to black powder after not really shooting it but a few times since the late 1970s. Dad & I built a .45 T/C Hawken back in '76, and now I have it along with all of the supplies we bought - back in '76 or so. I figure between the two of us, we probably have put no more than 75 rounds or so through it. I'm thinking I'll be changing that. What I have is about half a pound of Goex FFFg powder, a couple hundred Navy Arms & CVA caps, and some Hoppe's 9+ solvent/patch lube. I recently picked up some more round balls and lubed patches.

I'll be switching to FFg after the FFFg is gone. I have never tried any of the modern black powder replacements like Pyrodex and the like. I know they can be used to replaced BP on a volume for volume basis, but do these powders *act* like black powder? Personally, I like the smoke & all... I'd hate to go to something with much less "black powder experience". I haven't seen actual black powder at any local place, meaning Cabelas and Scheels. Can you still buy the stuff? And what are the advantages and/or disadvantages of Pyrodex and the like over the old Goex? I notice the new stuff is expensive as hell, it's higher than smokeless! And before you ask - no, I'm not tempted to try Unique in the old girl...

Plink · June 2, 2007, 02:25 PM

Welcome back to the addictive world of muzzleloading! The substitutes make smoke like black powder, but that's about where the similarities end. Pyrodex is a little more corrosive than real black and fouls more in some guns. It's also harder to ignite and generally not as consistent. I spent several years shooting Pyrodex and I will never use it again. Also, the smoke smells like a chemical fire.

Unfortunately, black powder is hard to find in some areas. If you find a local shop selling it, please support him! He went through a lot of trouble and expense to get the license, build the storage magazine, etc. I can't buy it locally. I order in bulk from powderinc.com. If you don't need a bulk order, you can probably find a few other shooters to split an order with you.

O.S.O.K. · June 2, 2007, 03:26 PM

I bet that's a nice shootin rifle there!

I would stick with Goex and you may be better off with the fffg in 45 caliber - especially with patched round balls - it tends to burn cleaner and many get better accuracy. ffg works good too but it takes more of it to reach the same velocity. I know a lot of people using it for 50 and even 54 caliber (the fffg) with round balls.

mykeal · June 2, 2007, 03:41 PM

+1 on what Plink said, plus:

777 is less corrosive and easier to clean. It makes a bit less smoke, doesn't smell as bad, but also doesn't smell like black powder (no sulfur), so no, it doesn't act like black powder (completely).

It also is a bit harder to light, but it produces a faster, higher pressure spike. One should reduce 777 loads by a minimum of 10% and more like 15% to get a result equivalent to Goex. That also means that if you are shooting a "max" Goex load then you will be exceeding the gun capability with the same 777 load by volume.

Never compare black powder and substitute black powder loads by weight; it won't work.

I can get Goex if I drive 50 miles one way. I do keep a couple of pounds around for when I want that original smoke and smell. Like Plink I'll never use Pyrodex again due to cleaning and corrosion issues, but 777 is acceptable to me as a viable substitute, so I use it almost exclusively now.

Please do NOT use Hoppe's No.9 to clean a bp gun. It will make a real foul, tarry mess that's a PITA to remove. There are a number of bp compatible cleaning solvents (Ballistol is popular) but I've always used just plain old soap and hot water. It works. Bottom line, though, stay away from any petroleum based cleaners or lubricants in any area where black powder combustion products might find their way.

arcticap · June 2, 2007, 09:28 PM

Opinions about Pyrodex are usually very subjective. Some folks swear that it burns cleaner than black powder, but since it also does contain sulfur, it is also corrosive. Pyrodex probably does require a black powder solvent like Hoppe's #9 Plus to help clean it up, but if using patches adequately lubed with Bore Butter/Wonderlube, a person could shoot moderate loads of patched round balls all day long with little if any fouling issues at all.
I prefer the smaller Pistol P (fffg) granulation for all calibers since it flows into the flash channel and ignites better, and I can reduce my powder charges by ~10%. Accuracy is not bad with Pyrodex either, although some folks claim that BP is more accurate. But cleaning is often required periodically during a shooting session to obtain the best accuracy with any powder, especially when shooting at longer ranges.
Because Pyrodex is not classified as an explosive like BP, it is a safer product to use to some extent, especially during loading.
And there's another substitute powder called American Pioneer Powder (APP) that works okay too, which doesn't contain sulfur & which cleans up easier than either BP or Pyrodex. The fffg granulation of APP is definitely more highly recommended.
Pyrodex probably just requires more consistent compaction when ramming the load into the breech for best results.
Every powder has advantages and disadvantages. Pyrodex does smoke when fired and it has some sulfur smell, which is definitely more noticiable during cleaning. I've found that Pyrodex P & APP fffg have both worked perfectly well if loaded into a gun for an extended period of time during a week or two of hunting in extremely cold weather temperatures. Although I've always covered the muzzle with a balloon to help preserve & protect the load from moisture and condensation.

mykeal · June 3, 2007, 06:26 AM

articap -

My opinion of Pyrodex is very definitely subjective; it's based on experience with the original formulation many years ago. I've heard since that it was greatly improved at one point and I admit that I've been so biased that I haven't seen fit to give it another chance. I teach the muzzleloader section of a hunter safety course, and my fellow instructor, who I greatly respect for his knowledge and experience, swears by it, and even he hasn't convinced me to give it another try.

If I had better access to black powder I would probably not use 777 as much. I will admit, given enough of a certain beverage for inspiration, that I prefer it over any of the substitutes. But given my inability to plan ahead and make sure I always have enough powder, I find that I tend to use what I can get at the local gun shop enroute to the range, and they don't stock bp any more. I suppose some day I'll be faced with either using up my last bit of Goex or trying Pyrodex again. What a black day that will be. Shudder. I wonder if I'm going to be able to admit I might be wrong about Pyrodex when that happens?

mec · June 3, 2007, 09:09 AM

Pyrodex is frequently a very satisfactory substitute. It gets the best accuracy in my Lyman GR rifle. Same with several revolvers. On the other hand, I have a couple of revolvers that deliver hang fires with it no matter what I do.

For real black powder, you might as well bite the bullet and order some. Grafs online has it and will sell in four or five pound minuimums. Others like Clarksville Rod and Gun have 25 pound minimums. You have to pay hazmat-about the cost of a can of swiss black powder and will probably have to send them something proving you are over 21 and plan to use it for nice purposes.

O.S.O.K. · June 3, 2007, 09:21 AM

mec, you beat me to it - I was just thinking the same thing after reading mykeal's reply - Graf's.

I've been using their brand of ffg for my front stuffers and ordered 4 lb.s on sale a while back but they sell Goex, Swiss, etc. as well.

What about the new Goex Premium "high energy" stuff - any experience or feedback on that?

mec · June 3, 2007, 10:55 AM

new to me. I use goex and swiss

mykeal · June 3, 2007, 03:02 PM

Thanks, guys. I have researched the mail order options for buying powder, and it's definitely possible to save some money, especially considering the 100 mile round trip to buy real black from my closest "local" source.

My problem is remembering to do it. Plus, when it comes right down to it, I kind of prefer to support the "local" guy all I can because I don't want him to go away. 777 gets involved because, when I pack up to head to the range and reach for the powder, I then realize that I haven't made the trip lately (the Goex is down to a few dozen grains), and it's too late now, so I stop at the hardware store on the way to the range where the only options are the bp substitutes. And 777 is my substitute of choice, until the hardware store on the way to the range runs out of that and it's either return home to get the last few precious grains of the Goex or, as mec says, bite the bullet and buy Pyrodex. And try to remember to schedule a 100 mile trip to buy some more Goex. Which ends up costing much, much more money as it involves taking the wife so she can do some shopping in the big box stores. My head hurts, I think I'll go lay down now.

Plink · June 3, 2007, 04:12 PM

I've shot a few cans of 777. It performed nicely in some of my guns, but wasn't as consistent as black powder and I didn't get as good of groups with it. I'd definately consider it for hunting though. It really pushed a ball hard. I had cleanup issues when I used it. It left a hard carbon ring in the breech that was a pain to scrub out. I guess I'm spoiled to the easy soapy water cleanup of BP.

As for changes in Pyrodex. I'm sure they've made some over the years, but I don't seem to notice any difference. I was shooting black powder when Pyrodex first hit the market. Being young and inexperienced, my first instict was to think that anything new had to be better, so I switched to it exclusively for several years. That was back when real black powder was available anywhere, even in department stores. I never could understand why my scores went down. I blamed myself, I blamed the gun, I blamed the caps, I blamed the patch/lube. It wasn't until I started shooting BP again that I came to blame the powder itself.

The last batch of Pyrodex I picked up was about 3-4 years back. I ran out of black and didn't know of a good source to order it yet. I had been buying from a gunshow dealer who stopped handling it. The Pyrodex still shot the same for me. I consider it as emergency backup powder now. Something to buy if I run out of black. I bought 25 lbs of black from powderinc.com though, so I'm set for a while.

BTW, 2F Pyrodex works quite well in my .75 handgonne, oddly enough. Doesn't work too well when igniting from a slowmatch, but works fine with fuse ignition. 3F BP tended to burn patches, 2F BP wasn't consistent (my fault for not having the proper ball/patch fit), but the Pyrodex pushed out the ball with authority and was the most accurate combo. I had mostly experimented with it in the handgonne as a way of using it up.

June 2, 2007, 09:43 AM	#1
DBotkin Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2006 Location: Omaha, NE Posts: 302	Returning to BP shooting I'm just returning to black powder after not really shooting it but a few times since the late 1970s. Dad & I built a .45 T/C Hawken back in '76, and now I have it along with all of the supplies we bought - back in '76 or so. I figure between the two of us, we probably have put no more than 75 rounds or so through it. I'm thinking I'll be changing that. What I have is about half a pound of Goex FFFg powder, a couple hundred Navy Arms & CVA caps, and some Hoppe's 9+ solvent/patch lube. I recently picked up some more round balls and lubed patches. I'll be switching to FFg after the FFFg is gone. I have never tried any of the modern black powder replacements like Pyrodex and the like. I know they can be used to replaced BP on a volume for volume basis, but do these powders act like black powder? Personally, I like the smoke & all... I'd hate to go to something with much less "black powder experience". I haven't seen actual black powder at any local place, meaning Cabelas and Scheels. Can you still buy the stuff? And what are the advantages and/or disadvantages of Pyrodex and the like over the old Goex? I notice the new stuff is expensive as hell, it's higher than smokeless! And before you ask - no, I'm not tempted to try Unique in the old girl...

June 2, 2007, 03:26 PM	#3
O.S.O.K. Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 2007 Posts: 122	welcome back I bet that's a nice shootin rifle there! I would stick with Goex and you may be better off with the fffg in 45 caliber - especially with patched round balls - it tends to burn cleaner and many get better accuracy. ffg works good too but it takes more of it to reach the same velocity. I know a lot of people using it for 50 and even 54 caliber (the fffg) with round balls.

June 2, 2007, 09:28 PM	#5
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	Opinions about Pyrodex are usually very subjective. Some folks swear that it burns cleaner than black powder, but since it also does contain sulfur, it is also corrosive. Pyrodex probably does require a black powder solvent like Hoppe's #9 Plus to help clean it up, but if using patches adequately lubed with Bore Butter/Wonderlube, a person could shoot moderate loads of patched round balls all day long with little if any fouling issues at all. I prefer the smaller Pistol P (fffg) granulation for all calibers since it flows into the flash channel and ignites better, and I can reduce my powder charges by ~10%. Accuracy is not bad with Pyrodex either, although some folks claim that BP is more accurate. But cleaning is often required periodically during a shooting session to obtain the best accuracy with any powder, especially when shooting at longer ranges. Because Pyrodex is not classified as an explosive like BP, it is a safer product to use to some extent, especially during loading. And there's another substitute powder called American Pioneer Powder (APP) that works okay too, which doesn't contain sulfur & which cleans up easier than either BP or Pyrodex. The fffg granulation of APP is definitely more highly recommended. Pyrodex probably just requires more consistent compaction when ramming the load into the breech for best results. Every powder has advantages and disadvantages. Pyrodex does smoke when fired and it has some sulfur smell, which is definitely more noticiable during cleaning. I've found that Pyrodex P & APP fffg have both worked perfectly well if loaded into a gun for an extended period of time during a week or two of hunting in extremely cold weather temperatures. Although I've always covered the muzzle with a balloon to help preserve & protect the load from moisture and condensation. Last edited by arcticap; June 3, 2007 at 04:18 PM.

June 3, 2007, 09:21 AM	#8
O.S.O.K. Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 2007 Posts: 122	ah mec, you beat me to it - I was just thinking the same thing after reading mykeal's reply - Graf's. I've been using their brand of ffg for my front stuffers and ordered 4 lb.s on sale a while back but they sell Goex, Swiss, etc. as well. What about the new Goex Premium "high energy" stuff - any experience or feedback on that?

June 2, 2007, 02:25 PM	#2
Plink Member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: W. Texas Posts: 83	Welcome back to the addictive world of muzzleloading! The substitutes make smoke like black powder, but that's about where the similarities end. Pyrodex is a little more corrosive than real black and fouls more in some guns. It's also harder to ignite and generally not as consistent. I spent several years shooting Pyrodex and I will never use it again. Also, the smoke smells like a chemical fire. Unfortunately, black powder is hard to find in some areas. If you find a local shop selling it, please support him! He went through a lot of trouble and expense to get the license, build the storage magazine, etc. I can't buy it locally. I order in bulk from powderinc.com. If you don't need a bulk order, you can probably find a few other shooters to split an order with you.

June 2, 2007, 03:41 PM	#4
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	+1 on what Plink said, plus: 777 is less corrosive and easier to clean. It makes a bit less smoke, doesn't smell as bad, but also doesn't smell like black powder (no sulfur), so no, it doesn't act like black powder (completely). It also is a bit harder to light, but it produces a faster, higher pressure spike. One should reduce 777 loads by a minimum of 10% and more like 15% to get a result equivalent to Goex. That also means that if you are shooting a "max" Goex load then you will be exceeding the gun capability with the same 777 load by volume. Never compare black powder and substitute black powder loads by weight; it won't work. I can get Goex if I drive 50 miles one way. I do keep a couple of pounds around for when I want that original smoke and smell. Like Plink I'll never use Pyrodex again due to cleaning and corrosion issues, but 777 is acceptable to me as a viable substitute, so I use it almost exclusively now. Please do NOT use Hoppe's No.9 to clean a bp gun. It will make a real foul, tarry mess that's a PITA to remove. There are a number of bp compatible cleaning solvents (Ballistol is popular) but I've always used just plain old soap and hot water. It works. Bottom line, though, stay away from any petroleum based cleaners or lubricants in any area where black powder combustion products might find their way.

June 3, 2007, 06:26 AM	#6
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	articap - My opinion of Pyrodex is very definitely subjective; it's based on experience with the original formulation many years ago. I've heard since that it was greatly improved at one point and I admit that I've been so biased that I haven't seen fit to give it another chance. I teach the muzzleloader section of a hunter safety course, and my fellow instructor, who I greatly respect for his knowledge and experience, swears by it, and even he hasn't convinced me to give it another try. If I had better access to black powder I would probably not use 777 as much. I will admit, given enough of a certain beverage for inspiration, that I prefer it over any of the substitutes. But given my inability to plan ahead and make sure I always have enough powder, I find that I tend to use what I can get at the local gun shop enroute to the range, and they don't stock bp any more. I suppose some day I'll be faced with either using up my last bit of Goex or trying Pyrodex again. What a black day that will be. Shudder. I wonder if I'm going to be able to admit I might be wrong about Pyrodex when that happens?

June 3, 2007, 09:09 AM	#7
mec Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Posts: 1,536	Pyrodex is frequently a very satisfactory substitute. It gets the best accuracy in my Lyman GR rifle. Same with several revolvers. On the other hand, I have a couple of revolvers that deliver hang fires with it no matter what I do. For real black powder, you might as well bite the bullet and order some. Grafs online has it and will sell in four or five pound minuimums. Others like Clarksville Rod and Gun have 25 pound minimums. You have to pay hazmat-about the cost of a can of swiss black powder and will probably have to send them something proving you are over 21 and plan to use it for nice purposes.

June 3, 2007, 10:55 AM	#9
mec Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Posts: 1,536	new to me. I use goex and swiss

June 3, 2007, 03:02 PM	#10
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Thanks, guys. I have researched the mail order options for buying powder, and it's definitely possible to save some money, especially considering the 100 mile round trip to buy real black from my closest "local" source. My problem is remembering to do it. Plus, when it comes right down to it, I kind of prefer to support the "local" guy all I can because I don't want him to go away. 777 gets involved because, when I pack up to head to the range and reach for the powder, I then realize that I haven't made the trip lately (the Goex is down to a few dozen grains), and it's too late now, so I stop at the hardware store on the way to the range where the only options are the bp substitutes. And 777 is my substitute of choice, until the hardware store on the way to the range runs out of that and it's either return home to get the last few precious grains of the Goex or, as mec says, bite the bullet and buy Pyrodex. And try to remember to schedule a 100 mile trip to buy some more Goex. Which ends up costing much, much more money as it involves taking the wife so she can do some shopping in the big box stores. My head hurts, I think I'll go lay down now.

June 3, 2007, 04:12 PM	#11
Plink Member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: W. Texas Posts: 83	I've shot a few cans of 777. It performed nicely in some of my guns, but wasn't as consistent as black powder and I didn't get as good of groups with it. I'd definately consider it for hunting though. It really pushed a ball hard. I had cleanup issues when I used it. It left a hard carbon ring in the breech that was a pain to scrub out. I guess I'm spoiled to the easy soapy water cleanup of BP. As for changes in Pyrodex. I'm sure they've made some over the years, but I don't seem to notice any difference. I was shooting black powder when Pyrodex first hit the market. Being young and inexperienced, my first instict was to think that anything new had to be better, so I switched to it exclusively for several years. That was back when real black powder was available anywhere, even in department stores. I never could understand why my scores went down. I blamed myself, I blamed the gun, I blamed the caps, I blamed the patch/lube. It wasn't until I started shooting BP again that I came to blame the powder itself. The last batch of Pyrodex I picked up was about 3-4 years back. I ran out of black and didn't know of a good source to order it yet. I had been buying from a gunshow dealer who stopped handling it. The Pyrodex still shot the same for me. I consider it as emergency backup powder now. Something to buy if I run out of black. I bought 25 lbs of black from powderinc.com though, so I'm set for a while. BTW, 2F Pyrodex works quite well in my .75 handgonne, oddly enough. Doesn't work too well when igniting from a slowmatch, but works fine with fuse ignition. 3F BP tended to burn patches, 2F BP wasn't consistent (my fault for not having the proper ball/patch fit), but the Pyrodex pushed out the ball with authority and was the most accurate combo. I had mostly experimented with it in the handgonne as a way of using it up.