plywood test II

MountainGun44 · November 2, 2000, 05:50 PM

I think this is a very important topic. If we play nice, maybe we won't get sent to our rooms again.

Based on my own completely non-scientific experience and "testing" I would be afraid to use a .223 rifle in a home defense situation if a shotgun was an alternative.

Here is my logic:

1) Your target may not always have his back to an exterior wall. What if it is an open door? A window? A garage wall? An interior wall?

2) If the .223 round manages to slip between studs and exit the stucture I believe that it has more potential to do damage.

3) If it were to cause accidental damage you would be far more likely to be held liable for negligent behavior- despite the expert reports that I have read to the contrary.

I have had .223 rounds skip off of car windshields without penetration. I have had a .223 round completely disintegrate when it hit a nail in a wall stud. I have fired standard 55 grain FMJ bullets through steel plates and cinder block. You just don't know what will happen.

At ranges under 7 yards shot charges of 4's, 6's, and, even 8's will be extremely effective. I personally don't think you need buckshot. If a happy medium is required, go for #4 buck.

I am talking about home defense. Not urban combat. I don't think you can anticipate the angles or directions a projectile will be fired in these situations. Maybe you bachelors in cement-walled apartments don't have to be as careful, but I would rather be unarmed than accidentally hit a neighbor's or my own child.

As far as setting up a "scientific" test is concerned, all I want to know is the result of an impact with the thinnest, least protected part of the structure. That might be an open door, as I said earlier.

Regards,

Dave

Ps I always laugh when we get in heated discussions. You know that if we were in a room together we would all get along like the best of friends. Lets try to remember that!

LIProgun · November 3, 2000, 09:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MountainGun44:
Ps I always laugh when we get in heated discussions. You know that if we were in a room together we would all get along like the best of friends. Lets try to remember that![/quote]

True. And it says something about the relative strength of arguments belonging to those who have to resort to ad hominem attacks.

Dave3006 · November 3, 2000, 11:53 AM

This is my last post on this topic. We are talking about life and death issues here. In this particular case, the life and death of innocent bystanders. I urge everyone to test their beliefs personally. Know first hand why you believe what you do. Do not rely on others as much as humanly possible. A simple ammo penetration test does not require much. This is mature and responsible.

I never will forget what Chuck Taylor said in one of my shooting classes, "What you believe can get you killed." In this case, maybe the kid next store.

Dave McC · November 4, 2000, 07:14 AM

Maybe someone with time on their hands and access to contruction materials can do an empirical test. Using 2X4s and drywall, set up a test target and shoot shotgun and Mattel Mousegun(AR-15) rounds through it, measuring repeatedly penetration and deflection. And to compare apples to apples, let's use softpoints in that .223.

While we're at it, maybe a few 38 Special, 9mm,and 45 ACP softpoints also, just as a side test.

tyro · November 4, 2000, 12:30 PM

And I'd be interested to see a few 357 rounds included in the comparative testing...

sundog · November 6, 2000, 02:04 PM

I've been following this thread with mild interest, but over the weekend came to another conclusion. I wonder what my buddy next door is using for home defense, and where his more likely shots will be taken from and to what direction. I haven't been shot at in a long time, and I pretty much like it that way regardless of who's firearm it comes from. Remember too that in a normal wall there is 1.5 inches of stud and 14.5 inches of no stud. What's the chances of hitting that stud? Less than 10%. I'm a shotgun and .45 acp kinda guy just for this reason - slow and wide, but violent and lethal at close range self defense in firearms that are supportive of instinctive pointing techniques (requires practice). Beyond me why anyone would would want to use a high power rifle close in unless that's all that was available. And, if my choice was high power rifle, it certainly would not be .223, because the bullet is just too puny - maybe an M1 with 180 gr soft points. Got a friend on the Highway Patrol who gives personal home defense talks (how to prevent as well as how to counter). He says, and if you think about it he's right, even if an intruder in the house in the middle of the night has never heard the 'rack-rack' of a pump shotgun, he'll still know what it is, and he'll be heading out the nearest window without even opening it. I tend to agree, but you've already got the round loaded if needed. Test if y'all wnat to, as Id be interested in the results. I'd rather not be unarmed. sundog

------------------
safety first

November 2, 2000, 05:50 PM	#1
MountainGun44 Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Posts: 343	I think this is a very important topic. If we play nice, maybe we won't get sent to our rooms again. Based on my own completely non-scientific experience and "testing" I would be afraid to use a .223 rifle in a home defense situation if a shotgun was an alternative. Here is my logic: 1) Your target may not always have his back to an exterior wall. What if it is an open door? A window? A garage wall? An interior wall? 2) If the .223 round manages to slip between studs and exit the stucture I believe that it has more potential to do damage. 3) If it were to cause accidental damage you would be far more likely to be held liable for negligent behavior- despite the expert reports that I have read to the contrary. I have had .223 rounds skip off of car windshields without penetration. I have had a .223 round completely disintegrate when it hit a nail in a wall stud. I have fired standard 55 grain FMJ bullets through steel plates and cinder block. You just don't know what will happen. At ranges under 7 yards shot charges of 4's, 6's, and, even 8's will be extremely effective. I personally don't think you need buckshot. If a happy medium is required, go for #4 buck. I am talking about home defense. Not urban combat. I don't think you can anticipate the angles or directions a projectile will be fired in these situations. Maybe you bachelors in cement-walled apartments don't have to be as careful, but I would rather be unarmed than accidentally hit a neighbor's or my own child. As far as setting up a "scientific" test is concerned, all I want to know is the result of an impact with the thinnest, least protected part of the structure. That might be an open door, as I said earlier. Regards, Dave Ps I always laugh when we get in heated discussions. You know that if we were in a room together we would all get along like the best of friends. Lets try to remember that!

November 3, 2000, 09:35 AM	#2
LIProgun Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2000 Location: Hudson Valley, NY Posts: 489	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MountainGun44: Ps I always laugh when we get in heated discussions. You know that if we were in a room together we would all get along like the best of friends. Lets try to remember that![/quote] True. And it says something about the relative strength of arguments belonging to those who have to resort to ad hominem attacks.

November 3, 2000, 11:53 AM	#3
Dave3006 Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2000 Location: Lake Forest, CA USA Posts: 493	This is my last post on this topic. We are talking about life and death issues here. In this particular case, the life and death of innocent bystanders. I urge everyone to test their beliefs personally. Know first hand why you believe what you do. Do not rely on others as much as humanly possible. A simple ammo penetration test does not require much. This is mature and responsible. I never will forget what Chuck Taylor said in one of my shooting classes, "What you believe can get you killed." In this case, maybe the kid next store.

November 4, 2000, 07:14 AM	#4
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Maybe someone with time on their hands and access to contruction materials can do an empirical test. Using 2X4s and drywall, set up a test target and shoot shotgun and Mattel Mousegun(AR-15) rounds through it, measuring repeatedly penetration and deflection. And to compare apples to apples, let's use softpoints in that .223. While we're at it, maybe a few 38 Special, 9mm,and 45 ACP softpoints also, just as a side test.

November 4, 2000, 12:30 PM	#5
tyro Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2000 Posts: 404	And I'd be interested to see a few 357 rounds included in the comparative testing...

November 6, 2000, 02:04 PM	#6
sundog Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 1999 Location: Green Country, OK Posts: 782	I've been following this thread with mild interest, but over the weekend came to another conclusion. I wonder what my buddy next door is using for home defense, and where his more likely shots will be taken from and to what direction. I haven't been shot at in a long time, and I pretty much like it that way regardless of who's firearm it comes from. Remember too that in a normal wall there is 1.5 inches of stud and 14.5 inches of no stud. What's the chances of hitting that stud? Less than 10%. I'm a shotgun and .45 acp kinda guy just for this reason - slow and wide, but violent and lethal at close range self defense in firearms that are supportive of instinctive pointing techniques (requires practice). Beyond me why anyone would would want to use a high power rifle close in unless that's all that was available. And, if my choice was high power rifle, it certainly would not be .223, because the bullet is just too puny - maybe an M1 with 180 gr soft points. Got a friend on the Highway Patrol who gives personal home defense talks (how to prevent as well as how to counter). He says, and if you think about it he's right, even if an intruder in the house in the middle of the night has never heard the 'rack-rack' of a pump shotgun, he'll still know what it is, and he'll be heading out the nearest window without even opening it. I tend to agree, but you've already got the round loaded if needed. Test if y'all wnat to, as Id be interested in the results. I'd rather not be unarmed. sundog ------------------ safety first