The Firing Line Forums
Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > S.W.A.T. Magazine

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 7, 2002, 12:11 AM   #1
Nightcrawler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2000
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 2,945
November issue

Loved the November issue, especially the article where they went through Urban Rifle with a .30-30 (especially since I had a partial hand in giving the folks the idea for that article on this very forum).

One thing, though. In Denny's briefing, he says that "a .223 has significantly less penetration than 9mm ball fired from a handgun."

In my experience in owning two AR-15s and shooting M16s in the military, this simply hasn't been the case. .223 55grn FMJ (like South African surplus), in my experience, simply doesn't fragment as well as its proponents think it will. I've shot thorugh both sides of a steel GI helmet and a 55 gallon drum, and I don't think the bullet slowed down much. There was a clean entry hole and a clean, slightly larger exit hole, and no signs of fragmentation. Thus, from my own experience, I wouldn't bet on a .223 FMJ round (leaving the barrel at 3,000 feet per second) fragmenting when hitting wall board or drywall.

Also note that .223 will slide through a soft armor vest easily, whereas 9mm will not.

However, this has been a topic of signifcant discussion on TFL. Many members have opinions, few have actually done tests.

This is where I think SWAT should step in. Perhaps they could settle it "once and for all"? I'm imagining a test where they build mockups of common house walls, such as brick, drywall, sheetrock, 2x4s, etc. Then, take various handgun rounds, (FMJ and JHP), as well as some rifle rounds (.223, 7.62x39, .308, .30-30) and see what kind of penetration you get with various loads.

To me, this would be an extemely interesting article, though it'd probably be difficult to put together the test.

Just an idea.
__________________
Nightcrawler- TFL Alumnus
Nightcrawler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7, 2002, 01:55 AM   #2
Tamara
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 11, 2000
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 16,002
I've kinda wondered about 55gr .223 fragmenting at close ranges myself. I've shot it through car doors and water heaters and had nice single entry & exit holes...

It'd make for an interesting article, for sure.
__________________
MOLON LABE!
2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium.
The Arms Room: An Online Museum.
Tamara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7, 2002, 10:40 AM   #3
Denny Hansen
Staff Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 29, 2001
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ
Posts: 2,422
Wrote the piece, saw it after Dennis proofed it, read it again after lay-up, and read it a final time at the prep-house stage. Once I saw the printed issue I knew I should have said clairified between frangible and ball

OK, ya'll want a test, we'll do one. I still have some wall mock-ups left from the last time we shot birdshot through to show that it will penetrate soft cover.

Denny
__________________
S.W.A.T. Magazine
Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World
Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook
Denny Hansen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7, 2002, 11:07 AM   #4
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,824
That statement should have been read in context of house fighting. The .223 will penetrate less wallboard, studs, and other things than a 9mm bullet will in a house environment. That's why LE favors the .223 over the 9mm in house clearing - less collateral damage.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7, 2002, 12:13 PM   #5
Nightcrawler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2000
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 2,945
So you meant that .223 frangible will penetrate less than 9mm ball? Makes sense.

At any rate it's cool that they're going to do the test. SWAT magazine rules! I should submit an article sometime. Heh.
__________________
Nightcrawler- TFL Alumnus
Nightcrawler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7, 2002, 07:11 PM   #6
KSFreeman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2001
Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America
Posts: 5,418
Ehhh, depends on what your shooting and what kind of round, just like any other projectile.

All the ballyhoo came into being when the .223 was sold to the po-po as "the one true way" as a solution to 9mm 147 grainer overpenetration shootings and suits. The problem is (as always) that the policicrats focused only on the caliber (or the magic sword, e.g. HK54s) instead of the hunk o' metal that comes out of it or the trained hand and finger guiding it.

We have superweapons! There is no need to follow Rule #4 or train up our boys in Rule #4! The weapons will fire themselves and the city attorney will stop jumping up and down.
__________________
"Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).
KSFreeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 8, 2002, 09:52 PM   #7
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,824
Just got mine today. Love that cover photo with the M-1D. However, the shooter shouldn't look into the camera.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Page generated in 0.14084 seconds with 10 queries