|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
February 28, 2012, 07:05 PM | #51 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,717
|
Quote:
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
|
March 1, 2012, 02:18 PM | #52 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
|
I see no evidence that the deceased was armed. The shooter is a weasel whom bad things were catching up to. The woman was the catalyst, and twisted the emotions of these two men. I would hazard a guess that neither one of them was being thoughtful or logical. All parties were wrong, who was more wrong? I say the shooter was more wrong by introducing deadly force into a domestic situation.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. |
March 1, 2012, 02:43 PM | #53 | |
Member
Join Date: October 16, 2009
Posts: 64
|
Quote:
|
|
March 1, 2012, 02:52 PM | #54 | ||||
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
In any case, Mr.Waller was charged with murder but the jury acquitted him. So the jury, who heard all the evidence, from both sides, apparently concluded that Mr. Waller's use of lethal force was legally justified under the circumstances. |
||||
March 1, 2012, 07:18 PM | #55 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 3, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 3,930
|
I see some people still love to play the blame the victim game. The other man chased and pusued him. Then got out to attack him.
I do not care what you say the motivator for a guy to chase someone then rush out of a vehicle and then assaualt him are. If you are dumb enough when angry to do this. I have no pitty for you when ther other guy shoots you. If I were on the jury I can say that I would have asked why charges had even been filed.
__________________
No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you. |
March 1, 2012, 07:56 PM | #56 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,717
|
Quote:
I am not sure of your justification of it not being right because it was a domestic situations. People are often killed in "domestic situations." Cops often suffer the worst harm in "domestic situations." When you are being illegally chased down and then rushed as the shooter was, you certainly may be in a position to reasonably fear for his life. It does not matter what the impetus may have been. At the point of the shooting, the shooter was the victim who was being attacked. That the attacker acted to solidify the affection of a woman isn't legal grounds for making the attack. He was wrong, made a very stupid choice, and died in front of his kids.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
|
March 1, 2012, 09:43 PM | #57 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
|
I think some people are taking my statement the wrong way.
I am not defending anyone, I am saying they are both stupid, a woman wittingly or not manipulated the situation and somebody died. We only saw a small snippet of film and no evidence one way or the other besides the video itself. I was not on the scene, nor the jury, nor am I passing judgement. It is however suspicious as H$#@ when one part of a love triangle kills another part of the love triangle. Lets just say this was a road rage incident taken too far. Did anyone make contact with anyone else's vehicle in any manner? Following someone as the deceased did was really stupid, stopping like he did was really stupid, getting out to confront the other driver was really stupid. Double Naught, I say it was not right because an angry armed man killed and angry unarmed man over a relationship. Maybe where you live its ok to kill your squeeze's boyfriend. I don't know what precipitated this event, all I can do is comment on the information I have available.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. |
March 1, 2012, 10:55 PM | #58 |
Member
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Posts: 49
|
i had a friend whose brakes gave out on a hill and he hit a squad car at the intersection. The police came out of their car with guns pointing and had the terified guy spread eagle on the ground in no time.
The reasonable person test will be debated forever, but cutting somebody off with a vehicle and them coming at him aggressively would ``put the victum in reasonable fear for his life``. Bang. Sad deal, but cars are deadly weapons, too. |
March 2, 2012, 09:42 AM | #59 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: April 16, 2011
Location: norwich ct
Posts: 737
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps"-LtGen. Holland M "Howlin' Mad" Smith, USMC,1949 Have you forgotten yet? Look down and swear by the slain of the War that you'll NEVER forget. [Siegfried Sassoon,"Aftermath,"1919] |
||
March 2, 2012, 10:52 AM | #60 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,787
|
Quote:
This sentence makes it sound like the shooter went and found his competitor and shot him so he could have the woman to himself. That is a mis-statement of the situation that appears in the video. I don't see evidence that the shooter acted in anger; nor do we have any reason to think that he shot the deceased "over of a relationship," which I take the writer to mean out of jealousy or possessiveness. The deceased was visibly angry, aggressive, and taking overtly threatening action against the shooter. What went on before was of questionable moral fiber, but it is only the back story in an incident in which a person was, according to a jury, in legitimate fear of death or serious injury and defended himself against the immediate actions of an assailant. It certainly is good advice to keep oneself out of situations like this, and for reason that go much deeper than the prospect of gunplay. But being a jerk does not give the rest of the world the right to dispense vigilante justice; hence the right of jerks to defend themselves. |
|
March 2, 2012, 11:07 AM | #61 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
|
Icedog, what if'ing the situation does not help. What if I had a thermal nuclear bomb in my car. What if he shot him in the Hospital? Is it ok to go to a movie in a crowded firehouse?
Tailgator, precisely, we do not know what led up to the confrontation. What if he had this or that, it changes the facts as we know them and is irrelevant. I am not saying the jury was wrong. I am saying that the shooter was rightfully arrested and charged with murder. If his attorney was able to interject reasonable doubt and get him acquitted, great, thats his job. If you guys feel justified shooting someone in this situation, go for it. As I have posted before, I spent a career in Law Enforcement. I have been shot at, stabbed, spit on, fought with you name it, when I have used force it has been appropriate to the situation. In MY OPINION shooting him was NOT an appropriate response. After being involved in thousands of bad situations over 3 decades, I feel that I have learned a thing or two and feel pretty comfortable calling a spade a spade. It is a rare thing indeed that you get to watch a shooting on video like that. I know you tube is full of them, but that just scratches the surface. Anger- someone is tailgating you, following you, driving aggressively, you go to the police department with him following you, you are scared, angry, or what? Oh wait, the guy is following you because you are banging the mother of his children and you will not stay away from her after being told to do so. So the stalker shoots the guy who is apparently trying to get the stalker to leave his woman alone. You can what if this and every scenario to death, so some of do not agree, cool. That is why we have the judicial system we do. He received a fair trial and was acquitted.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. Last edited by Nanuk; March 2, 2012 at 11:23 AM. |
March 2, 2012, 12:07 PM | #62 |
Staff
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,821
|
IMO, it's important to recognize the distinction between "right vs. wrong" and "legal vs. illegal." Perhaps the two analyses should be the same, but they are not.
I'd say that there was plenty of stupid to go around in this situation. Thing 1 shouldn't have been playing patty-fingers with Thing 2's girl. Thing 2 shouldn't have been chasing Thing 1 around town, trying to give him the whoopin' (that's the technical term) that 2 thought 1 so richly deserved. Still, whether the killing was right, wrong, or indifferent, the jury decided that 2 was entitled to use deadly force to defend himself. Thing 2's actions were legal, regardless of whether we think they were right or wrong.
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some. |
March 2, 2012, 12:56 PM | #63 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 16, 2011
Location: norwich ct
Posts: 737
|
Nanuk, that's exactly my point. The jury ruled on the law. Not
Quote:
__________________
"The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps"-LtGen. Holland M "Howlin' Mad" Smith, USMC,1949 Have you forgotten yet? Look down and swear by the slain of the War that you'll NEVER forget. [Siegfried Sassoon,"Aftermath,"1919] |
|
March 2, 2012, 01:04 PM | #64 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 9, 2011
Posts: 178
|
With multiple rounds fired at close range and the kids sitting in the car behind the target I'm glad they weren't hit.
|
March 2, 2012, 02:16 PM | #65 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 16, 1999
Posts: 244
|
I want the name of the defense attorney, to solicit him for the Network. He obviously understands self-defense law, and has successfully defended one case!
__________________
Marty Hayes, President The Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, LLC. www.armedcitizensnetwork.org |
March 2, 2012, 02:25 PM | #66 | |
Staff
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,821
|
Quote:
1) Bill Luppen, of Little Rock, AR; and 2) Frank Shaw, of Conway, AR.
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some. |
|
March 3, 2012, 07:28 AM | #67 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 10, 2011
Posts: 213
|
Quote:
But getting involved in a love triangle is a good way to get killed sooner or later. Were I on that jury I would have voted not guilty as well, because one has to render the decision according to the law. There does seem to be a lot of people who believe that you cannot shoot an unarmed person assaulting you. That is not the case in many southern states. I will bet his legal expenses though still run into thosands of dollars. |
|
March 3, 2012, 08:51 AM | #68 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: April 16, 2011
Location: norwich ct
Posts: 737
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps"-LtGen. Holland M "Howlin' Mad" Smith, USMC,1949 Have you forgotten yet? Look down and swear by the slain of the War that you'll NEVER forget. [Siegfried Sassoon,"Aftermath,"1919] |
||
March 3, 2012, 10:41 AM | #69 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,717
|
Quote:
The only person committing a criminal act here was the aggressor who is now deceased. The aggressor/deceased had no legal right to attack the shooter. Being mad about being cuckhold do not get one legal right to attack another person.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
|
March 3, 2012, 11:12 AM | #70 |
Member
Join Date: February 9, 2012
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 49
|
After watching the video several times and reading through this thread, my conclusion is that there was a fine line a jury had to negotiate. In the end, justice was weighed and served. Moreover, there are a lot of lessons to be gleaned from this incident for all of us.
(non sequitur) I hope the shooter wised up and left that woman...she's trouble. |
March 3, 2012, 11:43 AM | #71 |
Member
Join Date: January 29, 2012
Location: Chicago Area IL
Posts: 75
|
Murder to me....
Looks to me like the shooter was a coward afraid to take a beating. The worst person to fight is a coward as they will shoot you to avoid taking a beating. This looks like murder to me. If the other guy had a gun or a knife ok shoot him.
__________________
Criminals promote gun control. It make the rest of us easy prey. |
March 3, 2012, 12:00 PM | #72 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
|
|
March 3, 2012, 12:58 PM | #73 |
Member
Join Date: January 29, 2012
Location: Chicago Area IL
Posts: 75
|
fiddletown It did matter what I think. We had the same situation in my family. My nephew was carrying his gun due to the same type of situation. His girl friend had an x that had confronted him. I talked him out of carrying the gun as it is not legal in the state of IL
They did end up in a fight but both walked away. My nephew ended up married to the girl. The father of her 1st child is still alive and they all get along fine now. They both go fishing together with all there kids. Don't misunderstand me. If some one comes at you with a gun, knife or any other weapon I think you are justified in shooting them. If some one is kicking down the door to your home I think you can shoot 1st and ask questions latter.
__________________
Criminals promote gun control. It make the rest of us easy prey. |
March 3, 2012, 01:07 PM | #74 |
Junior member
Join Date: October 13, 2008
Location: Hermit's Peak
Posts: 623
|
gvw3- you're willing to subject yourself to possible great bodily harm, permanent disfigurement or death from an attacker before you're willing to shoot to defend yourself?
Are you sure about that? Talking someone out of illegally carrying a gun has no relevance to this situation. Nor does the fact that all parties involved in that situation are on friendly terms now. |
March 3, 2012, 01:38 PM | #75 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 16, 2011
Location: norwich ct
Posts: 737
|
Quote:
The days of fights adhering to some sort of code is long gone. "The Outsiders", "West Side Story" and movies of that ilk, don't happen.
__________________
"The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps"-LtGen. Holland M "Howlin' Mad" Smith, USMC,1949 Have you forgotten yet? Look down and swear by the slain of the War that you'll NEVER forget. [Siegfried Sassoon,"Aftermath,"1919] |
|
|
|