Customer pulls out gun, things go better then expected.

roboman · November 27, 2011, 06:31 AM

Sometimes its better to think and watch then react

I was hanging out at a local thrift store with the cashier who is a fellow gun nut. We were having a conversation about the different weaponry of WWII when suddenly a very old 80 something year old comes to the counter and pulls out what appears to be a Walther P38 from his holster

that is attached to his belt. It was covered by a jacket. For a second I think its a replica or something , he then unloads it and starts talking about it.

The funny thing is there are about a dozen customers in the store and one even waiting on line that react like everything is normal , it was very strange, as if we live in the wild west or something. It was just so bizarre, I thought for sure someone would freak out.

I had my .380 on me but I did not even touch it becuase

First I thought it was fake
Then I was just startled/shocked
By that time the weapon was already unloaded
The gun was never pointed at me , the barrel was pointed to the floor

This just shows you have to expect the unexpected, even a 80 something year old pulling out a gun. The whole thing could have been worse, thankfully this was more like a wake up call.

This occurred in South Florida

skoro · November 27, 2011, 10:16 AM

Quote:

This just shows you have to expect the unexpected, even a 80 something year old pulling out a gun

Those 80 year old guys are mostly WWII vets who know their way around weapons.

BerettaBuckeye · November 27, 2011, 11:14 AM

That's just plain stupid and dangerous and age is no excuse.

Glenn E. Meyer · November 27, 2011, 11:22 AM

I don't think this was a good thing. I've seen folks have to wrestle away a rifle from an old guy at the range who wouldn't stop shooting during a cease fire to replace targets. Claimed he knew how to shoot.

nate45 · November 27, 2011, 11:25 AM

So what tactic are we supposed to be discussing?

Not to draw on old guys who have done nothing threatening?

briandg · November 27, 2011, 11:35 AM

I'm most definitely happy that you didn't draw on an 80 year old man who simply took a pistol out of a holster.

Simply put, I see absolutely no reason in what you have told here to justify it. I see no indication whatsoever of intent to harm, and I see no possible reason for you to have felt threatened. your remarks are that you never know, even 80 year old men sometimes barge into conversations and show their guns to people, and we need to remember that, so we won't be surprised.

you're telling us that the guy just walked up to you, drew his gun, and showed it to you. Not a word exchanged. are you sure that you didn't omit something? This story leaves me a little less than confident of a lot of things.

jhenry · November 27, 2011, 11:50 AM

About the very youngest WWII vets are 84+ years old. Most living WWII vets are pushing 90 or better. We should thank them in person whenever we can for what they did for the world.

That bit aside, what the gentleman did in pulling a loaded firearm in a public place without a legitimate reason to do so, without an invitation to do so, and then to manipulate the firearm by unloading it, was foolish and irresponsible.

Being a WWII vet, does not in any way make a person a competent gun owner, or even a safe one or a good shot. No more than being a vet from any other conflict does. Many draftees had never been exposed to guns except for the ones they were issued and never viewed them the way we do here. My own father was a WWII and Korea vet who could tell you all the weapons he trained on just like he could tell you where he traveled. They were just loud tools. When I handed him a 1911 a few years ago (He has since passed), my dad remembered the bullets went in the grip somehow, that's about it. He had zero interest in firearms. On the other hand he COULD vividly tell you what not to do when messing with an M1 rifle. He would then proceed to tell all about getting M1 thumb. A vivid memory apparently.

Glenn E. Meyer · November 27, 2011, 01:03 PM

Going around topless and carrying are different from drawing out the gun in a public place.

To the tactical issue - the best bet is to flee or talk calmly to the individual.

Florida is a fun old person place. I've seen an old guy totally flip out in the Walgreens because he had to stand in line to get a birthday card. Threw it on the ground and stomped on it. Glad he wasn't carrying.

I also saw a gentleman drop stone cold dead at the ATM. Stream of urine crossed the parking lot. Freaked me out, went inside to tell them to call 91. Happens all the time, they said.

On the other hand, two old men - one with a NAA 22 mag and the other with a 22 mag derringer - shot a crook holding up a restaurant with a shotgun,once.

youngunz4life · November 27, 2011, 01:36 PM

I don't have a problem with it, and the thing is obviously nobody else did either if you or no other customer said anything to him. He never held it in a threatening manner, and he probably hasn't any weapon since the War. I wouldn't do it myself, but I guess he knew he could get away with it. Is there a policy or sign saying he can't bring in a loaded gun? Maybe it was his carry piece.

roboman · November 27, 2011, 02:17 PM

Yes he said something before he removed his gun but honestly I cant really remember because I intently listing to my friend, the real question is what was the right thing to do? If he meant harm he had the drop on me and I was toast.

jhenry · November 27, 2011, 02:26 PM

The simple fact that he did what he did tells me he either has no business carrying a firearm, or may be slipping mentally. Stating that the folks around him had no problem with it is simplistic in the extreme. Other than the OP, and his friend, we have no idea if the folks in line even knew what happened. Just because they had no reaction does not mean they were switched on enough to comprehend what the guy was fiddling with at the counter.

Does anyone here really consider what the older man did to be acceptable gun handling? Anyone?

nate45 · November 27, 2011, 02:31 PM

Old guys are eccentric.

Carrying a P-38 for CCW is eccentric, I don't care what anyone says.

Everyone over 75 has some degree of dementia.

He is probably lonely and/or wanted to talk about/show off his P-38.

A younger person probably wouldn't have done it or would have clued you and your buddy in better before doing it.

At least (besides drawing it unannounced in the first place) he handled it relatively safely.

You're right he could have started shooting, but then again anyone could.

Lost Sheep · November 27, 2011, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhenry

Does anyone here really consider what the older man did to be acceptable gun handling? Anyone?

Gun handling? OK. Public etiquette? Not so much.

He kept it pointed at the floor and (apparantly) cleared it properly. Whether he did so in a socially conscious manner is open to question. Obviously, very much so in the OP's mind. Not to mention the safety issue. In some places drawing a weapon can get you shot by a less-than prudent (or intelligent) armed person.

I have not thought very much about the (non-shooting) circumstances that would prompt me to draw my carry piece. I always considered, unless requested by an authority (Law officer or some such), I would never do it. But if a discussion were to warrant it, I suppose I might consider it.

Perhaps I would if certain conditions held. A clearing barrel was available. The property owner/manager were in agreement and all present were aware (which should be obvious if I were standing in front of a clearing barrel).

Otherwise, I would "keep it in my pants", so to speak. Concealed is concealed and holstered is supposed to be (my personal feeling).

Having said that, in a firearms-friendly venue (the old American West for example) the social norms permitted a more casual attitude. (However, I can't imagine your average thrift store -as in the O.P. to be a current-day example.)

Lost Sheep

secret_agent_man · November 27, 2011, 03:15 PM

What the OP doesn't want to admit is, the old guy had them all if he wanted.

Grant D · November 27, 2011, 03:15 PM

Ok, I'll bite. A 1911 is ok for CCW but not a P-38?
And yes a bad situation indeed,what if a cop walked through the door!

Stevie-Ray · November 27, 2011, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Everyone over 75 has some degree of dementia.

Upon what do you base that?

http://alzheimers.about.com/od/resea...e_dementia.htm

nate45 · November 27, 2011, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by excerpt from article Stevie-Ray lined too

dementia is not an inevitable consequence of age nor does it only affect the elderly.

I'm demented?

orionengnr · November 27, 2011, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Everyone over 75 has some degree of dementia.

Thank you, Dr. Nate. I would like to see your credentials and any of your published and peer-reviewed documents.

Absent that, your entirely arbitrary and subjective opinion is exactly that.

Glenn E. Meyer · November 27, 2011, 04:13 PM

Discussing dementia is off topic.

Let's get real. We like guns. We carry them. Drawing one in an inappropriate place is wrong. The action was irrational, even if we like guns.

If he had taken off his pants - would you be so forgiving?

youngunz4life · November 27, 2011, 04:22 PM

1st off, thank you for this thread. I really needed some funny posts today.

Secondly, you have to at least give him the benefit of the doubt somewhat on this(your post right after my only other post):

Quote:

Yes he said something before he removed his gun but honestly I cant really remember because I intently listing to my friend....

You don't know what he said.

Edward429451 · November 27, 2011, 04:28 PM

He heard you guys talking about guns and wanted to feel a little camaraderie with you so pulled his out. Good thing some of you guys weren't in line behind him or we'd be discussing how many followup shots were needed to put the old guy in his place.

Glenn E. Meyer · November 27, 2011, 04:31 PM

Good thing you weren't talking about - guess what. If you get my drift.

Let's cut to the chase - it was not a good thing.

Is this going anywhere else?

BillCA · November 27, 2011, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nate45

Old guys are eccentric.

Define "old" - over what age?
I know some pretty eccentric 35 year olds too.

Quote:

Carrying a P-38 for CCW is eccentric, I don't care what anyone says.

A P-38 is eccentric? Unusual perhaps, but not eccentric. I've done it for grins. It's not an easy gun to conceal. But it's no larger than a Beretta 92FS, firing system works about the same.

Quote:

Everyone over 75 has some degree of dementia.

You have proof? Mom is 89 and can remember every item she wants on her shopping list from week to week. Another relative is 77 and still enjoys repairing lawn mowers, washer, dryers and more. What IS true, that I've noted is that they are more easily surprised and their reaction times are slower due to age.

Quote:

He is probably lonely and/or wanted to talk about/show off his P-38.

As opposed to a lonely younger man who wants to show off his Sig P226?

Quote:

A younger person probably wouldn't have done it or would have clued you and your buddy in better before doing it.

There's no basis in fact for this statement.
What people will or won't do is a crap shoot.

Was he wrong? Probably. He certainly lacked courtesy to the others present. He was probably listening and simply happy to hear others casually discussing something he knew about.

nate45 · November 27, 2011, 04:51 PM

So you guys are saying my post was filled with common misconceptions?

And that the elderly gentleman might have been just as normal and competent as anyone else?

Edward429451 · November 27, 2011, 05:05 PM

No, it was not a good thing in this day and age. I see that quite a few of you guys are too harsh and critically paranoid almost. Not everyone is a bad guy and I think perhaps some look too hard for the bad guy.

May I suggest that people need to chill out and take a lesson from the bankers. They don't teach the tellers how to spot counterfeit money. They teach the tellers how to spot good money, understand?

Learn about body language and most of the spookies will go away for you. I'd bet money that the old guys was non-threatening in his actions and the OP just didn't know what to look for and got paranoid.

November 27, 2011, 06:31 AM	#1
roboman Junior Member Join Date: November 26, 2011 Posts: 3	Customer pulls out gun, things go better then expected. Sometimes its better to think and watch then react I was hanging out at a local thrift store with the cashier who is a fellow gun nut. We were having a conversation about the different weaponry of WWII when suddenly a very old 80 something year old comes to the counter and pulls out what appears to be a Walther P38 from his holster that is attached to his belt. It was covered by a jacket. For a second I think its a replica or something , he then unloads it and starts talking about it. The funny thing is there are about a dozen customers in the store and one even waiting on line that react like everything is normal , it was very strange, as if we live in the wild west or something. It was just so bizarre, I thought for sure someone would freak out. I had my .380 on me but I did not even touch it becuase First I thought it was fake Then I was just startled/shocked By that time the weapon was already unloaded The gun was never pointed at me , the barrel was pointed to the floor This just shows you have to expect the unexpected, even a 80 something year old pulling out a gun. The whole thing could have been worse, thankfully this was more like a wake up call. This occurred in South Florida

November 27, 2011, 11:14 AM	#3
BerettaBuckeye Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2006 Location: In The Heart Of The Buckeye Nation Posts: 558	That's just plain stupid and dangerous and age is no excuse. __________________ (\__/) "I would rather be your friend, but if you are (='.'=) not interested in that, I am prepared to be (")_(") a capable and efficient enemy." - Jeff Cooper

November 27, 2011, 11:22 AM	#4
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	I don't think this was a good thing. I've seen folks have to wrestle away a rifle from an old guy at the range who wouldn't stop shooting during a cease fire to replace targets. Claimed he knew how to shoot. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

November 27, 2011, 11:25 AM	#5
nate45 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 3,746	So what tactic are we supposed to be discussing? Not to draw on old guys who have done nothing threatening? __________________ "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ (>_<)

November 27, 2011, 11:50 AM	#7
jhenry Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Location: Ozarks Posts: 1,840	About the very youngest WWII vets are 84+ years old. Most living WWII vets are pushing 90 or better. We should thank them in person whenever we can for what they did for the world. That bit aside, what the gentleman did in pulling a loaded firearm in a public place without a legitimate reason to do so, without an invitation to do so, and then to manipulate the firearm by unloading it, was foolish and irresponsible. Being a WWII vet, does not in any way make a person a competent gun owner, or even a safe one or a good shot. No more than being a vet from any other conflict does. Many draftees had never been exposed to guns except for the ones they were issued and never viewed them the way we do here. My own father was a WWII and Korea vet who could tell you all the weapons he trained on just like he could tell you where he traveled. They were just loud tools. When I handed him a 1911 a few years ago (He has since passed), my dad remembered the bullets went in the grip somehow, that's about it. He had zero interest in firearms. On the other hand he COULD vividly tell you what not to do when messing with an M1 rifle. He would then proceed to tell all about getting M1 thumb. A vivid memory apparently. __________________ "A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer

November 27, 2011, 11:35 AM	#6
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	I'm most definitely happy that you didn't draw on an 80 year old man who simply took a pistol out of a holster. Simply put, I see absolutely no reason in what you have told here to justify it. I see no indication whatsoever of intent to harm, and I see no possible reason for you to have felt threatened. your remarks are that you never know, even 80 year old men sometimes barge into conversations and show their guns to people, and we need to remember that, so we won't be surprised. you're telling us that the guy just walked up to you, drew his gun, and showed it to you. Not a word exchanged. are you sure that you didn't omit something? This story leaves me a little less than confident of a lot of things.

November 27, 2011, 01:03 PM	#8
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Going around topless and carrying are different from drawing out the gun in a public place. To the tactical issue - the best bet is to flee or talk calmly to the individual. Florida is a fun old person place. I've seen an old guy totally flip out in the Walgreens because he had to stand in line to get a birthday card. Threw it on the ground and stomped on it. Glad he wasn't carrying. I also saw a gentleman drop stone cold dead at the ATM. Stream of urine crossed the parking lot. Freaked me out, went inside to tell them to call 91. Happens all the time, they said. On the other hand, two old men - one with a NAA 22 mag and the other with a 22 mag derringer - shot a crook holding up a restaurant with a shotgun,once. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

November 27, 2011, 01:36 PM	#9
youngunz4life Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2010 Location: United States of America Posts: 1,877	I don't have a problem with it, and the thing is obviously nobody else did either if you or no other customer said anything to him. He never held it in a threatening manner, and he probably hasn't any weapon since the War. I wouldn't do it myself, but I guess he knew he could get away with it. Is there a policy or sign saying he can't bring in a loaded gun? Maybe it was his carry piece. __________________ "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864

November 27, 2011, 02:17 PM	#10
roboman Junior Member Join Date: November 26, 2011 Posts: 3	Yes he said something before he removed his gun but honestly I cant really remember because I intently listing to my friend, the real question is what was the right thing to do? If he meant harm he had the drop on me and I was toast.

November 27, 2011, 02:26 PM	#11
jhenry Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Location: Ozarks Posts: 1,840	The simple fact that he did what he did tells me he either has no business carrying a firearm, or may be slipping mentally. Stating that the folks around him had no problem with it is simplistic in the extreme. Other than the OP, and his friend, we have no idea if the folks in line even knew what happened. Just because they had no reaction does not mean they were switched on enough to comprehend what the guy was fiddling with at the counter. Does anyone here really consider what the older man did to be acceptable gun handling? Anyone? __________________ "A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer

November 27, 2011, 02:31 PM	#12
nate45 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 3,746	Old guys are eccentric. Carrying a P-38 for CCW is eccentric, I don't care what anyone says. Everyone over 75 has some degree of dementia. He is probably lonely and/or wanted to talk about/show off his P-38. A younger person probably wouldn't have done it or would have clued you and your buddy in better before doing it. At least (besides drawing it unannounced in the first place) he handled it relatively safely. You're right he could have started shooting, but then again anyone could. __________________ "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ (>_<)

November 27, 2011, 03:15 PM	#14
secret_agent_man Junior member Join Date: March 25, 2011 Posts: 463	What the OP doesn't want to admit is, the old guy had them all if he wanted.

November 27, 2011, 03:15 PM	#15
Grant D Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2011 Location: Brazos County, Texas Posts: 1,038	Ok, I'll bite. A 1911 is ok for CCW but not a P-38? And yes a bad situation indeed,what if a cop walked through the door!

November 27, 2011, 04:13 PM	#19
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Discussing dementia is off topic. Let's get real. We like guns. We carry them. Drawing one in an inappropriate place is wrong. The action was irrational, even if we like guns. If he had taken off his pants - would you be so forgiving? __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

November 27, 2011, 04:28 PM	#21
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	He heard you guys talking about guns and wanted to feel a little camaraderie with you so pulled his out. Good thing some of you guys weren't in line behind him or we'd be discussing how many followup shots were needed to put the old guy in his place.

November 27, 2011, 04:31 PM	#22
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Good thing you weren't talking about - guess what. If you get my drift. Let's cut to the chase - it was not a good thing. Is this going anywhere else? __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

November 27, 2011, 04:51 PM	#24
nate45 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 3,746	So you guys are saying my post was filled with common misconceptions? And that the elderly gentleman might have been just as normal and competent as anyone else? __________________ "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ (>_<)

November 27, 2011, 05:05 PM	#25
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	No, it was not a good thing in this day and age. I see that quite a few of you guys are too harsh and critically paranoid almost. Not everyone is a bad guy and I think perhaps some look too hard for the bad guy. May I suggest that people need to chill out and take a lesson from the bankers. They don't teach the tellers how to spot counterfeit money. They teach the tellers how to spot good money, understand? Learn about body language and most of the spookies will go away for you. I'd bet money that the old guys was non-threatening in his actions and the OP just didn't know what to look for and got paranoid.

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