trail boss with jacketed bullet

14cm · November 25, 2009, 07:21 AM

I saw somewhere that trail boss should not be used with jacketed bullets. if this is true, why?

Magnum Wheel Man · November 25, 2009, 10:18 AM

I just bought a canister of Trail Boss recently, & began expirimenting with it... so far I've only used it for 45 Colt with lead bullets, & my fast twist 22 Hornet ( for a subsonic load ) with jacketed bullets... my 1st attempt with the Hornet worked well ( talking bullet speeds less than 800 fps ), but group sizes & extreme spreads left something to be desired... but it was interesting enough to want to try a few more trials next spring... I didn't notice any issues with the 22 caliber jacketed bullets... I've heard there are guys using it in 223 for subsonic loads I plan on trying it in a pop gun load for 32 H&R Magnum for my single six next year as well...

Walkalong · November 25, 2009, 12:05 PM

It works well in .32-20 with plated bullets. It fills the case well, which is nice because it is so hard to see a small charge in .32-20 cases.

I have had less luck with it in other pistol calibers with plated bullets.

**Unclenick** · November 25, 2009, 12:52 PM

To the OP, there are claims of unexpected pressure spikes appearing when working jacketed loads up with Trail Boss, and that these do not occur with lead. Give Hodgdon a buzz and see what the latest word is?

**Mike Irwin** · November 25, 2009, 02:04 PM

Search on my name and Trail Boss. I've covered this before, and have posted responses from the company.

The pressure spikes MAY be related to a different process, in which max loads are used and the bullets seated, compressing the powder and breaking it up, effectively increasing its burning rate.

The Hodgdon people I've discussed this with indicates that they won't provide jacketed bullet information primarily because the ballistics are all over the place.

JD 500 · November 25, 2009, 02:51 PM

works good in the 500 mag for ultralight loads, with plated bullets.

What cartrige are you loading for ?

14cm · November 25, 2009, 03:45 PM

454casull

mapsjanhere · November 25, 2009, 04:18 PM

The version I heard, the burn speed of Trailboss is highly dependent on the chamber pressure. The softer lead bullets immediately enter the lands, the jacketed take a fraction to deform correctly before they can enter. This fraction is thought to be enough to raise the chamber pressure above design level and trigger uncontrolled fast burn of the Trailboss, given you that pressure spike.
But independent of the safety aspect, these kind of variations will ruin your accuracy.

JD 500 · November 25, 2009, 06:08 PM

If it were me, and it was at one point, I would call Hodgdon and ask them about your concern.
They were more than willing to talk to me about it.

(At the time I couldn't believe any powder company was suggesting that a reloader simply "fill the case" to where the bottom of the seated bullet would sit (And that would be max)., but that is exactly what they told me. They indicated at max, in the 500, I would be at 20,000 psi or thereabouts, and I simply couldn't create any issues at that pressure. (I had no conversation though about the topic, or concern, you have presented).

**Mike Irwin** · November 25, 2009, 08:22 PM

"The version I heard, the burn speed of Trailboss is highly dependent on the chamber pressure."

That's true of any smokeless powder. That's why they're called progressive burning powders.

mapsjanhere · November 25, 2009, 09:09 PM

unusually highly dependent

Walkalong · November 26, 2009, 04:36 PM

Quote:

The pressure spikes MAY be related to a different process, in which max loads are used and the bullets seated, compressing the powder and breaking it up,

Compressing Trailboss is a big no no according to Hodgdon. I am sure Mike is right as to the reason.

**Mike Irwin** · November 26, 2009, 07:40 PM

Any way you look at it, Trail Boss is an amazingly useful powder if you load the old, large capacity rounds like .44 Special and .45 Colt.

For a number of years I loaded .44 Special with WW 231 and simply wasn't happy with it. I opined a number of times about the need for one of the powder companies to bring back a bulk smokeless powder of the kind that was available from the early days of smokeless through WW II.

Bulk smokeless could be loaded volume for volume for black powder in the old rifle and handgun rounds.

Then Trail Boss came out, and my prayers were pretty much answered. TB isn't a true volume for volume bulk smokeless powder, but it is VERY close.

As long as you stick with lead bullets (some people are using jacketed, I won't do it) and don't compress it, TB is pretty much foolproof.

So far I've used it in .32-20, .38 Special, .41 Magnum, and .44 Special, and I've had excellent results. I've not loaded it in rifle cartridges, but I know more than a few people who report similarly excellent results with cartridges as diverse as .32-40 and .45-70. And I know there's loading information available for some of the big .50s.

It may not be a true bulk smokeless like I wanted, but I'm pretty darned happy with it.

November 25, 2009, 07:21 AM	#1
14cm Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 156	trail boss with jacketed bullet I saw somewhere that trail boss should not be used with jacketed bullets. if this is true, why?

November 25, 2009, 10:18 AM	#2
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	I just bought a canister of Trail Boss recently, & began expirimenting with it... so far I've only used it for 45 Colt with lead bullets, & my fast twist 22 Hornet ( for a subsonic load ) with jacketed bullets... my 1st attempt with the Hornet worked well ( talking bullet speeds less than 800 fps ), but group sizes & extreme spreads left something to be desired... but it was interesting enough to want to try a few more trials next spring... I didn't notice any issues with the 22 caliber jacketed bullets... I've heard there are guys using it in 223 for subsonic loads I plan on trying it in a pop gun load for 32 H&R Magnum for my single six next year as well... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

November 25, 2009, 12:52 PM	#4
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	To the OP, there are claims of unexpected pressure spikes appearing when working jacketed loads up with Trail Boss, and that these do not occur with lead. Give Hodgdon a buzz and see what the latest word is? __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 25, 2009, 02:04 PM	#5
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Search on my name and Trail Boss. I've covered this before, and have posted responses from the company. The pressure spikes MAY be related to a different process, in which max loads are used and the bullets seated, compressing the powder and breaking it up, effectively increasing its burning rate. The Hodgdon people I've discussed this with indicates that they won't provide jacketed bullet information primarily because the ballistics are all over the place. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

November 25, 2009, 04:18 PM	#8
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	The version I heard, the burn speed of Trailboss is highly dependent on the chamber pressure. The softer lead bullets immediately enter the lands, the jacketed take a fraction to deform correctly before they can enter. This fraction is thought to be enough to raise the chamber pressure above design level and trigger uncontrolled fast burn of the Trailboss, given you that pressure spike. But independent of the safety aspect, these kind of variations will ruin your accuracy. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

November 25, 2009, 12:05 PM	#3
Walkalong Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2007 Location: Al. Posts: 196	It works well in .32-20 with plated bullets. It fills the case well, which is nice because it is so hard to see a small charge in .32-20 cases. I have had less luck with it in other pistol calibers with plated bullets.

November 25, 2009, 02:51 PM	#6
JD 500 Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 110	works good in the 500 mag for ultralight loads, with plated bullets. What cartrige are you loading for ?

November 25, 2009, 03:45 PM	#7
14cm Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 156	454casull

November 25, 2009, 06:08 PM	#9
JD 500 Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 110	If it were me, and it was at one point, I would call Hodgdon and ask them about your concern. They were more than willing to talk to me about it. (At the time I couldn't believe any powder company was suggesting that a reloader simply "fill the case" to where the bottom of the seated bullet would sit (And that would be max)., but that is exactly what they told me. They indicated at max, in the 500, I would be at 20,000 psi or thereabouts, and I simply couldn't create any issues at that pressure. (I had no conversation though about the topic, or concern, you have presented).

November 25, 2009, 08:22 PM	#10
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"The version I heard, the burn speed of Trailboss is highly dependent on the chamber pressure." That's true of any smokeless powder. That's why they're called progressive burning powders. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

November 25, 2009, 09:09 PM	#11
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	unusually highly dependent __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

November 26, 2009, 07:40 PM	#13
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Any way you look at it, Trail Boss is an amazingly useful powder if you load the old, large capacity rounds like .44 Special and .45 Colt. For a number of years I loaded .44 Special with WW 231 and simply wasn't happy with it. I opined a number of times about the need for one of the powder companies to bring back a bulk smokeless powder of the kind that was available from the early days of smokeless through WW II. Bulk smokeless could be loaded volume for volume for black powder in the old rifle and handgun rounds. Then Trail Boss came out, and my prayers were pretty much answered. TB isn't a true volume for volume bulk smokeless powder, but it is VERY close. As long as you stick with lead bullets (some people are using jacketed, I won't do it) and don't compress it, TB is pretty much foolproof. So far I've used it in .32-20, .38 Special, .41 Magnum, and .44 Special, and I've had excellent results. I've not loaded it in rifle cartridges, but I know more than a few people who report similarly excellent results with cartridges as diverse as .32-40 and .45-70. And I know there's loading information available for some of the big .50s. It may not be a true bulk smokeless like I wanted, but I'm pretty darned happy with it. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.