How Fast Part II

[kraigwy]

K-Mac

I don't know about viewing the video, it works sometimes. But I don't know how to get it to working. I had to find someone who knows more then me about computers to even get in on the net.

But you're not missing much, it was one I made showing the Serpa holster is not inherently un-safe.

It shows if used the way its suppose to be used, the trigger finger slides along the holster and falls under the slide where its suppose to be, to allow for the finger not going into the trigger guard and allows one to easier Point Shoot.

But thanks for the comments. I don't pay a lot of attention to criticism on the internet.

[shafter]

Nice video. The lesson I see in the clip is the gun doesn't have to be pointed at you to be a threat. In fact, most of us could have our gun trained on her and still be shot by her before we could react. She isn't special, it's just that action beats reaction.

Before we crucify her for not taking her finger off the trigger keep in mind that the gun was still pointed in a safe direction. Not ideal, but hardly reckless.

[Branko]

Actually, neurologically speaking, reaction is faster then intentional action. Once you processed the threat, reaction gets limbs moving faster. The problem is that time required to process the threat can eat away the advantage.

When using a buzzer you're exploiting a mechanism which isn't there where you are initiating the action yourself without a "go" signal.

[9x45]

Beretta 92 and an OWB Serpa, whats with the suspenders and flimsy leather belt? Maybe a live fire demo of that, course I have seen shooters pull the holster and belt up trying to draw with a rig like that. By the way, Serpa holsters have been banned from a number of well known gun fighting schools because the shooter wants to unlock it with the trigger finger, despite what Todd Jarret tells them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6QLym229h4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_W2...hM6URWcpnjB2Pw

[kraigwy]

By the way, Serpa holsters have been banned from a number of well known gun fighting schools because the shooter wants to unlock it with the trigger finger

I'd be more inclined to ban shooters who blame equipment for their failings.

The Serpa was designed to slide your finger over the release button, which would allow the trigger finger to fall along the slide of a pistol, or under the cylinder of a revolver.

The problem is jabbing the button with your trigger finger which causes the finger to hit the trigger as the gun clears the holster.

That is not the Serpa's fault, that's the idiot poking the button.

But I agree, its better to discuss the old fat man then the subject of safely drawing the gun from the Serpa holster.

But the old fat man likes to use the Blue Plastic Training guns for safe demonstrations when no shooting is involve. Never had one of those go off accidently or on purpose.

[9x45]

kraig, fist of all, the Serpa paddle is to be inside your pants, and over the belt, not between the belt and your pants. The first thing any new student should ask? Is do you have even event liability insurance? It's a policy that protects the range owners, club officers, range officers, and students. Next thing is you do is provide them a copy of that policy. 2nd, what are your credentials? Have you been thru GunSite, ThunderRanch, DR Middlebrooks? Taken classes from Mass, Hackethorn, Vickers? Are you active duty LEO/retired? Can you share your shooting incidents? On/off duty? Criminal/civil court? Do you currently have a valid CCW permit? Are you actively involved in a sanctioned competition, USPSA/IDPA/Steel Challenge/3 gun? If not, pass.

I have been in this game for over 45 years, and I don't teach "FlicknClick"

Where did that bullet go? If your student is dragged into civil court, are you prepared to defend them based on your creds?

[pax]

Here's a short video clip from a recent episode of Guns & Ammo television, where the hosts say that anyone who claims the Serpa holster is unsafe are either "not able to internalize keeping their finger straight and off if the trigger" or "don't understand the four safety rules". Sounded kind of like kraigwy just did, in fact.

Interestingly, here is a slo-mo image of one of the participants on that show (Pat Sweeney) as he draws from the Serpa holster to show how safely and easily the holster can be used. He had no idea his finger had gone to the trigger, and the episode aired at full speed. A sharp eyed observer saw what had happened and slowed the speed down so we could all see it.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXakcPB0evk

This isn't some untrained or half-trained Johnny-Come-Lately; it's Patrick Sweeney, who has spent his entire adult life making a living behind the gun: shooting, learning, teaching, gunsmithing, and writing. I'd lay money on the table to say that this man has had more hours of formal training, and more hours behind the gun, than 98% of the posters on this forum.

Given the lifetime of safe gunhandling Patrick Sweeney has under his belt, to say that what he did with his Serpa is "just a training issue" is to say that nobody can get enough training to use the product safely.

pax

PS There's also this excellent post from well-known, reputable professional trainer Chuck Haggard. It summarizes other issues with the Serpa quite well.

[pax]

Oh, one more thing about the slo-mo video ( www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXakcPB0evk ) -- when someone says they've used the Serpa for a long time and have "never had an issue" with it, this video is a fairly excellent way to point out that they may not know if they've had an issue.

If it weren't caught on camera like this, Patrick Sweeney still would not know he'd had an issue with the Serpa. He thought everything was fine and that he'd never had a problem with it.

pax

[9x45]

Patrick is well known in the sanctioned competition shooting world since the early 80's of IPSC. Having his finger on the trigger during the draw is know as "Prep" All competitive shooters do that, it's just getting ready to pop a cap. Not the same as newbies..... But the Serpa still sucks, notice how far it is pulling up, even with proper position and a Wilderness Tactical Original Instructors Belt,.

And observe, after the draw, he slaps the sht out of the trigger, it's not breahte and squeeze, its grip it and rip it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ2Q...HecSEQmPNEV2XQ

[Sharkbite]

But the Serpa still sucks, notice how far it is pulling up, even with proper position and a Wilderness Tactical Original Instructors Belt,.

He has the wrong size belt and/or the holster is improperly adjusted. The Serpa allows to adjust for the belt width you are using. That clearly was not done here

Ive run Serpa holsters since they came out. Overseas and Stateside, belt mounted (concealed and exposed), thigh rig (with and without a light attached and a chest mounted one on my PPE while driving high profile motorcades.

All of these have been with a Glock pistol. The release button is located over the top part of the frame, not the trigger. You HAVE to curl your finger downward to engage the trigger AFTER depressing the lever and starting the draw

NO OTHER WAY to do it. The shooter MUST physically move their finger to the trigger. If the finger is left in the spot the release lever puts it during the draw the finger ends up EXACTLY where it should. Along the Frame, right over the takedown lever

I cant speak to other makes of guns, ive only used it with a Glock. With that pistol it is ABSOLUTLY shooter error that results in ND's.

As to the claim that debris can "jam" the release lever.....Yep, that can happen if rolling around in mud and sand. I never worried about that in almost 8 years of constant deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. YMMV

[pax]

For context, here's the full segment.
https://youtu.be/LJ2Qg4xwHgg

He is prepping the trigger, but he is not prepping the trigger during the early part of the draw stroke. You can see him go on the trigger, then come off the trigger, then go back on the trigger as he drives the gun out to the target.

Going on the trigger as he's driving the gun out to the target is prepping the trigger. Going on the trigger inadvertently as the gun comes out of the holster is a screw up.

Here is an excellent breakdown of the video by my colleague Karl Rehn.

http://blog.krtraining.com/?p=152

pax

[kraigwy]

9X45

kraig, fist of all, the Serpa paddle is to be inside your pants, and over the belt, not between the belt and your pants.

I slipped the Serpa over the belt for the video only. I don't normally use Serpa except in match where I use the Beretta. Even then I use it with a belt and not in my pants. I often sign up for two guns requiring two different holsters. None go in my pants.

I'll say it again, its a poor man who blames his equipment for his failure.
It isn't the holster that has problems its the idiot using it.

The first thing any new student should ask? Is do you have even event liability insurance? It's a policy that protects the range owners, club officers, range officers, and students. Next thing is you do is provide them a copy of that policy.

The club does have insurance, covering all involved. Its a requirement from the City who lease us the land the range is on.

2nd, what are your credentials? Have you been thru GunSite, ThunderRanch, DR Middlebrooks? Taken classes from Mass, Hackethorn, Vickers?

Nope, none of those people. FBI LE Firearms Instructor Course, NRA LE Rifle Instructor Course, USAMU Sniper School. FBI Instructors Development Course (requirement for Alaska Police Standard Council's) LE Instructor's Cert.
NG-MTU Coaches clinic, CMP Master Instructors course.

Are you active duty LEO/retired? Can you share your shooting incidents? On/off duty? Criminal/civil court? Do you currently have a valid CCW permit? Are you actively involved in a sanctioned competition, USPSA/IDPA/Steel Challenge/3 gun?

Retired 20 year Anchorage Police Dept. Retired 25 years USA/NG.
Including Combat Infantryman, RVN 2/502 IN. 101st Abn Unit 67-68, my shooting incidents is not going to be discussed.

Coached rifle and combat pistol teams for the Alaska NG. Entered the AKNG with the 38th SF company as the light weapons sgt. Ending commanding the AK NG Marksmanship program, to include responsible for the Marksmanship Training and Unit Weapons qualifications. Plus, and just as important, the administration and logistic aspects of conducting matches, and supply.

As to court, I was (probably not current) certified by the State of Alaska, Third Jud. district as an expert in Firearms Investigation and Hazardous Devices (Bomb Disposal).

As to CCW I carry per the LEOSA.

Taught Sniper Schools Civilian Police and Military. Was the original instructor when APD first started their SWAT program (they call it CERT).

Shot formal competition since 1977, High Power, Bullseye Pistol, Combat Pistol for the Guard, now provide HP Clinics and CMP GSM Clinics. Currently I compete every other weekend (Mar-Oct) in various pistol matches, USPSA, ICORE, Steel and Pins, 3 Gun and others, depend on they are shooting on a given weekend. Also still shoot CMP Games, HP and Precision Rifle.

Sorry, I'm not a bit ashamed of my qualifications.
Am I perfect, hell no, but I've been taught by some of the Best, The USAMU, All Guard Coaches and my favorite, Gary Anderson, Olympic Champion setting records in the late 60s that have never been broken.

You're gonna have to find someone else to beat up on.

[kraigwy]

Having his finger on the trigger during the draw is know as "Prep" All competitive shooters do that, it's just getting ready to pop a cap. Not the same as newbies.....

I shoot every other weekend in Spearfish SD (during the season Mar-Oct. )

What you call "PREP" the call "disqualification". If your finger is on the trigger during the draw, or moving between targets, your finished for the day.

[Pond, James Pond]

Impressive.

There may be some issues around handling, but way back when the gauntlet was thrown down the claim had been drawing and shooting in about 0.5s, IIRR.

Demands of proof by video were made and they've been met. Works for me.... Not for others. Now we have more demands for this or that holster etc, etc... Qualifications and the rest are all very well and good, but the claim was to shoot is "X" msecs and it happened. Qualifications or lack there.

Even without a timer that is clearly well under a second and calculations based on video editing programs counting frames support this.

If I had been saying "Can't be done! Nonsense!", then this is the time when I'd be saying "I stand corrected. Well done." instead....

[K_Mac]

Kraig your resume is impressive, as anyone who has been around this site for any length of time would know if they paid any attention. Thank you for your service to your country and community. I always wonder why instead of offering constructive criticism, some feel the need to question and condemn. You are not selling anything, and my guess is you spend more than you make on your class, cookies and such notwithstanding. I don't know you at all l, but your motivation seems to be honorable. I have far more respect for that than those who tell us how good they are for no other apparent reason than ego.

[Sharkbite]

I think the issue with the above is simply one of differing perspectives.

The "claim" was that a student in one of these classes could "draw and fire" in such a short time. The Industry standard for "draw and fire" is not starting with the hand on the gun and the grip established.

So, without that disclaimer in th previous posts, claiming such a feat, alot of pepple (myself included) threw the BS flag.

I stand by that....if we are going to claim super human feats for a known skillset then we need to abide by that skill set quantification. OR a disclaimer should be made stating we are differing from the understood procedure

I bet i can beat that time by a considerable margin, if i start with a J frame in my coat pocket, pointed at the tgt and my finger on the trigger. But that is not what was inferred by the OP. "Draw and fire" has a established meaning.

SO, a unrealistic comparison to a know quantity lead to a claim that we all know was not humanly possible (at least at the skill/training level indicated).

Was she fast? YEP, good on her for the reflexes to get a hit in that timeframe.

Was that a true test of her "draw and fire" time? NOPE

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Here's my comments on the Serpa issue in the video, posted elsewhere:

In one of the IDPA venues, that HCM and I shoot at, IIRC, there has been a Serpa ND into a leg. Personally, I witnessed a new shooter with a Serpa who could not release the gun smoothly. He was pressing and jerking it. Thus, the SO stopped him as he saw an ND coming. Next, a participant LEO who is a long time and excellent shooter had a new Serpa as he was testing it as it might or was adapted (I forget). He found the release difficult to master smoothly. He was not a fan of the holster. I doubt that many nondedicated users put in 3500 reps. However, as I point out below, reps might not be the cure for an affordance error, time pressure and associated incident stress.

Mike Webb, our match director and who has been director for the Nationals, and I were discussing it. He sees and I agree given the human factors of finger usage that the problem is that people don't do the smooth flat release and tend to hook the finger to press the lever. This is a natural occurrence given the way we use fingers to press buttons and also continues the natural motion to get the finger to the trigger. Gun design is such that the finger seeks the trigger. This is called an affordance (see Donald Norman - Design of Everyday Things) and leads to errors. They are terribly hard to train out of. Sliding the finger in a controlled environment as a TV shoot might make it easy. Under stress, you press with the finger tip and that tip heads right for the trigger. It is hard enough to keep fingers off the trigger with regular holsters or other retention systems. Putting the finger into a tension filled motion seems pragmatic. Even with lots of reps, we know that folks can circumvent muscle memory. Muscle memory must be correctly recalled (not consciously though) to be used. It's retrieval can be over ridden in stress.

Thus, to repeat myself, the discussion of 4 rules is really irrelevant to the problem. Pilots learn that they should not stall but they do and crash when the stress, systems and evaluation get out of sync.

PS - in the video, you can see the flat finger start to curl in as I said was the tendency. In fact, I might argue that using the finger to apply pressure might enhance this motion as compared to a regular draw where you don't get your finger in motion until you are on target.

We all like to say things are human errors. That is a contributor but if you know human factors, there can be contributors that 'training' alone cannot totally eliminate.

[K_Mac]

Sharkbite that you and others inferred that Kraig was claiming standard "draw and fire" time is clear. He was clear in the setup and did not imply that at all. Simply posting a time faster than achievable by standard measure does not imply anything deceitful.

[kraigwy]

Sharkbite:

Maybe I can explain, I almost hate to, you can see why from some of the post.

As I said earlier, this course is not a shooting course per se but a self defense course. This topic only dealt with a tiny aspect of the class. I brought it up in the HOW FAST subject in the earlier post.

But to address the "hand on the gun" aspect. We all discuss (or should) situation awareness. Examples being suspicious persons approaching you at an ATM, or gas station while pumping gas. One has to be aware, and ready, without brandishing. So I teach to carry concealed in such a manner that one can have his hand on his/her gun, and be instantly ready to produce a weapon OR empty hands, depending on the situation.

As you can see from the video, the lady starts with the hand resting on the gun, both of which are covered by her jacket.

I do the same thing except I pocket carry with my hand in my pocket as mentioned in the other post.

Though she, or anyone else, can become extremely fast, I think interject scenarios that slow them down tremendously. Simply done but interjection Shot-No Shoot situations.

As an example, lets use active shooter situations. As with most, I go by the FLEE, HIDE (HUNKER DOWN) AND FIGHT, reactions. (preference in that order).

While hunkered down, the student is ready to fire when the suspect pops around the or instantly produce empty hands if its a first responder pops around the corner. I feel its just, if not more important to produce empty hands as it is to produce a firearm.

A training session I use here is to have one person facing his/her target, pointing the gun ready to fire. A second person also faces his/her target with his hands in his pocket. When the pointer sees the 2nd person start to draw he fires. BUT, the second person has and will produce either a gun (plastic blue gun) OR a cell phone from their pocket.

This does slow down the fast draw quite a bit.

I provided the video NOT to say this is all that's taught, but to develop a skill and learn how to best carry concealed.

This class goes all winter, (Oct-May) we're just talking about a tiny section of the course.

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K-mac: Thanks for the positive feed back.

You are correct, I don't charge for this training, plus I provide most of the ammo used. Most of these women are low income and would not be able to afford paying for even moderately prices SD Firearm Classes.

Also Correct again, I do get a lot of home made cookies. But in addition, the NRA (who provided grants to build most of our range comlex) and the City who leases the property to us for $1 a year, like the feed back obtained regarding our club's service to the community.

We also make our range available to local LE, 4-H shooting sports, Apple Seed, Jr Rodeo and others.

Few small communities have not only the our outdoor range and traps houses, but our indoor range. And at low cost, you get unlimited use of all the ranges for a club membership fee of $25 per year.

[9x45]

Kraig, you shoot USPSA/IDPA/ICORE/Steel Challenge and 3 gun? Ok, post some scores and videos. Again, your video of the lady newbie does not show hand position, and it appears she activates the clock, not the RO, what kind of deal is that? And everyone knows when the low battery light comes on, the results are bogus. Let's see some clear videos with the RO holding the clock.

Better yet, to settle this once and for all, with your creds, what's your USPSA member number, than all of the USPSA shooters can see that you are for real.

[WyMark]

Originally Posted by K_Mac

Kraig your resume is impressive, as anyone who has been around this site for any length of time would know if they paid any attention. Thank you for your service to your country and community. I always wonder why instead of offering constructive criticism, some feel the need to question and condemn. You are not selling anything, and my guess is you spend more than you make on your class, cookies and such notwithstanding. I don't know you at all l, but your motivation seems to be honorable. I have far more respect for that than those who tell us how good they are for no other apparent reason than ego.

I agree with this 100%. This thread went wrong back on page one, and it seems that once someone posts a negative comment the trolls jump in too. "Unfortunate" sums it up nicely.

Kraig, please keep on doing what you do, and if I can get up your way I'll be proud to buy you a beer/soda/coffee/whatever you like. Thanks

[WyMark]

Better yet, to settle this once and for all, with your creds, what's your USPSA member number, than all of the USPSA shooters can see that you are for real.

You're a troll.

[Brian Pfleuger]

You're grasping at some very small straws there, 9.

You can CLEARLY see her non-shooting hand behind her back at the beginning of the video. Given the angle of the hand and distance from her of the person holding the timer after the shot, and the near complete lack of movement from her, it is quite obvious that it wasn't her activating the timer.

Second, an analysis of the video shows that the shot was fired at 0.366666 seconds.

You can argue the safety aspects all day long but you can not reasonably argue that what kraigwy is saying happened, didn't happen. You can see it and hear it right there in front of you. It's on video, with audio. It did happen and the reported (and indicated) time is correct. Arguing it is nonsensical.

[K_Mac]

I will add one more comment. I don't know what your issues are 9x45. You may be as good as you think you are. That seems unlikely, but it really doesn't make a bit of difference. What is clear is that your arrogant, condescending, and aggressive approach adds nothing to the conversation. Attacking someone else does not make you look better, and it doesn't represent the sport you seem to care about very well. Lighten up.

[9x45]

Wy and Brian, how much experience do either of you have as an NROI certifed RO in a sanctioned USPSA match? Are either of you certified? I'll bet neither of you shoot any sanctioned competition, ever. The posted video may fool a bunch of newbie wanna bee's, but it doesn't fool anyone who shoots competition for real. No, you are not. Look it up. She asks? do I push the button? yes, push the button, who said that? When the battery warning comes on for any timer, the results are bogus, not realistic, especially at an indoor range. At any USPSA Level I or IDPA or Steel Challenge or 3 gun, when the battery warning flashes, you get a re-shoot because the numbers don't mean anything.

Brian, why don't you post a video of you running a sub .4 second first shot from any start position. There are only a few shooters here who actually shoot competitive matches on a regular basis, and you are not one of them. If you were, you'd know that a sub .4 is not possible, not even for the Grand Masters.. But prove it to yourself, just show up at your nearest USPSA or IDPA and kick their butt.... Of, by the way, what's your USPSA or IDPA or Steel Challenge member number? Don't have one, do you...