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Old March 20, 2020, 05:32 PM   #1
5pins
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Prograde .357 magnum 200gr hard cast "bear grade" in clear ballistics gel.



Test Gun: Smith & Wesson Model 65
Barrel length: 3 Inches
Ammunition: Prograde .357 Magnum 200gr Hard Cast.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1097fps
Gel Temperature: 71

https://general-cartridge.com/2020/0...allistics-gel/
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Old March 20, 2020, 05:37 PM   #2
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No pics of the Gel Block?
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Old March 20, 2020, 08:21 PM   #3
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It sounds like it drilled straight thru four 16” blocks. Just what it was designed to do.
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Old March 20, 2020, 09:16 PM   #4
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It sounds like it drilled straight thru four 16” blocks. Just what it was designed to do.
About the size of a pencil?

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Old March 20, 2020, 10:12 PM   #5
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It is advertised as a “Bear load”. Penetration is king for an anti Yogi handgun load
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Old March 23, 2020, 10:21 AM   #6
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I've seen similar tests done with comparable bullets. All with the same results. Buffalo Bore 147 gr 9mm did exactly the same thing, 60"+ of penetration. They had the same 16" long blocks and it went through all 4. They did not catch the bullet. Similar heavy for caliber hardcast in 40 S&W, 10mm, and 45 ACP also gave 50"+ penetration, but they did manage to catch those bullets.
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Old March 24, 2020, 12:01 AM   #7
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I wonder with ammo like this if there's any reason to own a revolver in a larger caliber other than competition shooting.

I mean, I love my .45 wheelguns, but it wouldn't be much fun hauling them around in the woods when a .357 that weighs half as much is available.
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Old March 24, 2020, 05:59 AM   #8
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Old March 24, 2020, 11:06 AM   #9
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If you are ever charged by four blocks of gel at 10 feet, this will do it!

Back in the old days, people would take a bullet and put it on an anvil and hit it with a big hammer.

Good hard cast will dent. Bad hard cast will shatter. Regular cast will flatten like a pancake.

Large heavy game animals need good hard cast bullets. The bigger the better.
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Old April 23, 2020, 09:29 AM   #10
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Quote:
I wonder with ammo like this if there's any reason to own a revolver in a larger caliber other than competition shooting.

I mean, I love my .45 wheelguns, but it wouldn't be much fun hauling them around in the woods when a .357 that weighs half as much is available.
Gel is cute and, offers a test medium that is exactly the same for all projectiles.

In something that has muscle, sinew, bones and other hard stuff, a hard cast .41. .44 and other big bores will have the added weight to continue to push through and, make a bigger hole for the hydraulic fluid to leak out of.

Not to take anything away from that .357. That’s a very substantial bullet. And, I carry a .357 Magnum A lot. But, if I KNEW something big and furry were out to get me, I’d be carrying a .44 with those kind of bullets.
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Old May 18, 2020, 12:27 PM   #11
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Looks like Prograde ammo went out of business a few years back embroiled in a couple of law suits.

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.or...d-demise/16726

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Old May 18, 2020, 12:33 PM   #12
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5pins, I love your gel tests, but don't overdo the heavy, hard cast big bore penetrating ammo because it all does the same thing: penetrates really deep. It's a forgone conclusion what they're going to do, the only one's that would interest me is small calibers (.32, .380, 9mm) because I'm legit curious how they perform in penetration compared to 200+ grain loads.
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Old May 18, 2020, 12:38 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by TruthTellers View Post
I wonder with ammo like this if there's any reason to own a revolver in a larger caliber other than competition shooting.

I mean, I love my .45 wheelguns, but it wouldn't be much fun hauling them around in the woods when a .357 that weighs half as much is available.
This is why I settled on 10mm as my ideal woods carry gun and 200 grains is the max that .357 can shoot, but 10mm can shoot a 10% heavier projectile and shoot 200 gr hollow points that will expand.

Anyway, I love my .45 Redhawk, but as a gun for carrying it's far from ideal, it's performance on a man tho is excellent and it can pretty much shoot about 6 different .45's (GAP, ACP, Super, Cowboy Special, S&W, Colt) plus the .45 Colt holds a fair amount of birdshot and two .454 round balls.

That's all a lot of fun to shoot at the range, I have no doubts about the .45 for self defense, I know it can do the job on a charging bear, but I'm not interested in carrying it. That doesn't mean a big revolver isn't worth owning, they are if you have a good reason for owning one.

The versatility of the .45 Redhawk as a large reason why I bought it, but a .44 Magnum... it doesn't have that versatility and is a reason I have never had an interest in owning one. I know the .44 fanboys will read this and say something like "it's great in a rifle!" and yeah, it's fine in a rifle, but it's not significantly better than Ruger only .45 Colt loads in a rifle, nor is it better than .45-70.
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Old May 19, 2020, 11:57 AM   #14
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I mean, I love my .45 wheelguns, but it wouldn't be much fun hauling them around in the woods when a .357 that weighs half as much is available.
I'm not sure of what you are referring to. If you have two identical revolvers, one in 357 and one in 44 or 45 caliber, it's the one in 357 that will weigh more. The chambers in the cylinder are a smaller diameter for the 357 than for the 44 or 45 calibers. This means more metal in the cylinder and also the barrel and so more weight. Next time you are at a gun show or gun store check this out for yourself.

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Old May 19, 2020, 12:15 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by tipoc View Post
I'm not sure of what you are referring to. If you have two identical revolvers, one in 357 and one in 44 or 45 caliber, it's the one in 357 that will weigh more. The chambers in the cylinder are a smaller diameter for the 357 than for the 44 or 45 calibers. This means more metal in the cylinder and also the barrel and so more weight. Next time you are at a gun show or gun store check this out for yourself.

tipoc
True, but he could be carrying a .357 LCRx that weighs 20oz.
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Old May 19, 2020, 12:57 PM   #16
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True, but he could be carrying a .357 LCRx that weighs 20oz.

True but he didn't say that. He could also be carting a Sig 229 in 357 Sig, which would also be lighter, but he didn't say that either.

So hows your comment help?

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Old May 20, 2020, 12:02 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by tipoc View Post
True but he didn't say that. He could also be carting a Sig 229 in 357 Sig, which would also be lighter, but he didn't say that either.

So hows your comment help?

tipoc
Yeah, well what you said didn't make sense because he wasn't comparing to identical revolvers, he was saying there are .357's that weigh much less than .45 revolvers and those .357's a much easier to carry as a result.
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Old May 20, 2020, 12:08 PM   #18
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Yeah, well what you said didn't make sense because he wasn't comparing to identical revolvers, he was saying there are .357's that weigh much less than .45 revolvers and those .357's a much easier to carry as a result.
He said:

Quote:
I mean, I love my .45 wheelguns, but it wouldn't be much fun hauling them around in the woods when a .357 that weighs half as much is available.
The first thing I said was:

Quote:
I'm not sure of what you are referring to. If you have two identical revolvers, one in 357 and one in 44 or 45 caliber, it's the one in 357 that will weigh more. The chambers in the cylinder are a smaller diameter for the 357 than for the 44 or 45 calibers. This means more metal in the cylinder and also the barrel and so more weight. Next time you are at a gun show or gun store check this out for yourself.
So I was asking him to clarify, for me, just what he meant. Did he mean a smaller revolver in 357? Did he mean a semi in 357 Sig? Both of which might be lighter weight? Or was he just saying that while he had a wheelgun in 45 Colt it was too heavy for him to cart around so he preferred to carry a smaller gun in 357? Or was he trying to say that a gun in 357 was somehow lighter than a gun in 45 or 44?

I did not want to guess at what he meant so I asked. that's a useful thing now and then.

tipoc
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Old May 20, 2020, 12:50 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tipoc View Post
He said:



The first thing I said was:



So I was asking him to clarify, for me, just what he meant. Did he mean a smaller revolver in 357? Did he mean a semi in 357 Sig? Both of which might be lighter weight? Or was he just saying that while he had a wheelgun in 45 Colt it was too heavy for him to cart around so he preferred to carry a smaller gun in 357? Or was he trying to say that a gun in 357 was somehow lighter than a gun in 45 or 44?

I did not want to guess at what he meant so I asked. that's a useful thing now and then.

tipoc
Apparently I quoted myself and didn't realize it, thus I no longer need to refer to myself in the third person.

So, the first sentence of my first post here was "I wonder with ammo like this if there's any reason to own a revolver in a larger caliber other than competition shooting."

Specifically said revolver, thus when I said .357's that weigh half as much it was meant as in revolvers.
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Old May 21, 2020, 12:03 AM   #20
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WFN

It may be just the angle of the pic, but I see that slug more configured like a truncated cone, and not so much a wide flat nose. Regardless, it should drill through a lot of material.
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Old May 21, 2020, 10:45 AM   #21
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I just watched the Paul Harrell take on this and I really like his methodology.

For those that don't know, he proposes that a bear or lion is about like two layers of leather jacket (hide), beef spare ribs, a couple of bags of oranges (for lungs), more spare ribs, more leather.. then a patented high tech microfleece backstop. Then he shows what happened to the target.

The point being, predatory animals have tough bones and bullets will encounter bone and soft tissue.

Rather than go on and on about bears, I would like to propose a Pandemic Paul Harrell Picnic Recipe:

Orange BBQ with Jello Fruit Salad

Sauce:
4 tablespoons butter
1.5 cup dark brown sugar
1 cup shredded orange (most peel removed)
1 1/3 cup white vinegar
4 tablespoons tomato paste
1 tablespoon minced garlic
2 tablespoon Worcestershire sauce
1 teaspoon salt
2 teaspoon black/white pepper mix
2/3 cup water

Blend ingredients, simmer for 5 minutes, let cool.

Marinate two rib racks for several hours while cleaning up after your trip to the range and the grill is heating up.

Chop up one cup of oranges, watermelon, and half cut grapes and add to regular cherry Jello. Let cool per instructions.

Don't shoot the jello.
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Old May 21, 2020, 11:43 AM   #22
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Quote:
Apparently I quoted myself and didn't realize it, thus I no longer need to refer to myself in the third person.
I didn't realize I was quoting you. So I'll leave that be and quit talking to you like you don't know what you said. My bad I suppose.

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Old May 21, 2020, 01:36 PM   #23
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You guys are sure afraid of bears!
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Old May 21, 2020, 02:43 PM   #24
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BQ6Bh0hHqQ
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Old May 22, 2020, 10:01 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by TruthTellers View Post
I wonder with ammo like this if there's any reason to own a revolver in a larger caliber other than competition shooting.
I mean, I love my .45 wheelguns, but it wouldn't be much fun hauling them around in the woods when a .357 that weighs half as much is available.
Even better, a 6" G40 over a 6" S&W 686. My custom G20L I developed back in 2004 carries 17+1 rds of 200grn hardcast hot 10mm ammo and weighs less than a 6" barreled S&W 686 with only 6rds of 200grn hot .357 Mag. That's 3 times the ammo load!! Even better, my hot 10mm loads in my G20L produce a bit higher velocities than my hot .357 Mag loads in the 686 do.

Now, if you were to add a .357 Mag levergun into the mix, then the 686 is better as my hot loads come alive in the longer barreled leverguns. Besides, if you're in bear country, just a pistol is a bit 'under gunned'.
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