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Old June 26, 2018, 07:13 PM   #1
stonewall50
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Glock 18 or Other Full Auto Handguns: Does it have a use?

So I am curious about the use of these firearms. I understand the idea of “why not.” But can anyone direct me to legitimate uses of something like a Glock 18 or M93? Like the Glock 18 is for “law enforcement and military only.” So concealed full auto? With a stock I can see the concept I guess. But I don’t think I’ve ever seen LEOs use it. So? Anyone got any history? Any info?
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Old June 26, 2018, 07:16 PM   #2
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Massive firepower concealed, used by witness protection elements and VIP protection personnel.
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Old June 26, 2018, 07:30 PM   #3
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There was a police chief near here that had a G18 some time ago.


Just because he could.
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Old June 26, 2018, 09:25 PM   #4
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Even with a tax stamp arent glock 18s pretty hard to get ahold of?
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Old June 26, 2018, 09:31 PM   #5
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Even with a tax stamp arent glock 18s pretty hard to get ahold of?
I dont think there are any transferable G18’s on the registry. Some companies have made conversions based of the slide cover plate, but those are all dealer samples, and only avail to LE.
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Old June 26, 2018, 09:56 PM   #6
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Local range got a manufacturer's license and built a Glock 17.5 to rent. Also a M16. Planning an AK47 next.
I didn't know they could DO that.

Another dealer has a number of full autos, many appear to be kit guns made out of surplus parts. They rent a range for an annual machine gun shoot.
I don't see their loophole, either.
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Old June 26, 2018, 10:04 PM   #7
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It was originally called for by an anti-terrorist agency. Its use would be for breaching and clearing as well as suppression or the brown pants scenario. Typically it would be in use by SWAT or other special departments of LE but military or government use would be the same. I don't believe the G18 would ever be concealed and it is a selective fire pistol.
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Old June 27, 2018, 07:19 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
So I am curious about the use of these firearms. I understand the idea of “why not.” But can anyone direct me to legitimate uses of something like a Glock 18 or M93? Like the Glock 18 is for “law enforcement and military only.” So concealed full auto? With a stock I can see the concept I guess. But I don’t think I’ve ever seen LEOs use it. So? Anyone got any history? Any info?
Full auto, shoulder stock, and 33 round magazine, and you've got a "PDW" that fills the same niche, for the same people, as the original CZ Skorpion
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Old June 27, 2018, 07:36 AM   #9
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I wouldn't be surprised if there were one or two owned by armourers for the film industry...
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Old June 27, 2018, 08:05 AM   #10
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I fired a Beretta 93. It was more a novelty as outside of 10 yards, it is very difficult to keep all shots on even a B-27 target. I shot numerous automatic firearms in my career and this one was the hardest to shoot accurately I ever shot. In semi-automatic mode it was very accurate and it did not have any malfunctions so it looked like the quality was very good. There was also an attachable shoulder stock that did help some but then why not have an automatic carbine if you need the shoulder stock for it to keep it on target? I was glad for the experience but I have no desire to own one. YMMV
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Old June 27, 2018, 01:19 PM   #11
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stonewall50 So I am curious about the use of these firearms. I understand the idea of “why not.” But can anyone direct me to legitimate uses of something like a Glock 18 or M93?
Same "legitimate uses" as any other firearm.



Quote:
Like the Glock 18 is for “law enforcement and military only.”
This is due to the 1986 Hughes Amendment to FOPA. It can only transfer to LE or military, and samples to an SOT on a law letter.


Quote:
So concealed full auto? With a stock I can see the concept I guess. But I don’t think I’ve ever seen LEOs use it. So? Anyone got any history? Any info?
The Glock 18 is easily controlled without using a shoulder stock. It allows carry in standard holsters and can become a carbine by simply attaching the shoulder stock.

At my last Glock Armorers class the instructor told us that there are several police departments in the US that issue the G18. Glock even provides a special course for departments: https://www.glocktraining.com/files/G18_Course.pdf
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Old June 27, 2018, 01:23 PM   #12
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Jim Watson Local range got a manufacturer's license and built a Glock 17.5 to rent. Also a M16. Planning an AK47 next.
I didn't know they could DO that.
An 07FFL/SOT Manufacturer can build any firearm except for Destructive Devices. They simply report them on a Form 2.

Quote:
Another dealer has a number of full autos, many appear to be kit guns made out of surplus parts. They rent a range for an annual machine gun shoot.
I don't see their loophole, either.
It's only a loophole if you are an antigunner. Federal law is clear that all that is needed is an 07FFL/SOT.
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Old June 27, 2018, 02:04 PM   #13
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I thought you had to have a request from a government agency to produce a "post 86 sample" even with appropriate licenses.
Not so? You can just crank out whatever you like but have to either keep it or pass it on to another dealer or armed government agency? I saw a daisy chain of small shops building "samples' and passing them around, but that was years ago and thought it had been stopped along with the Clinton elimination of "hobby" dealers.

I am not an anti-gunner, but there is a lot of stuff going on at the fringes of the NFA, GCA, and GOPA that would not pass Quacks Like a Duck scrutiny.
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Old June 27, 2018, 02:25 PM   #14
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I can rent one at a range near me so the "military LEO" thing may have a work around.

http://www.washingtoncountyguns.com/inventory/
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Old June 27, 2018, 02:41 PM   #15
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In pistol configuration it is mostly a toy.

In PDW configuration it is useful as a PDW. PDW's can be pretty awesome in their niche.
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Old June 27, 2018, 02:54 PM   #16
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I've seen plenty of YouTube vids that prove the G18 is certainly no toy in the hands of someone who knows how to shoot it.
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Old June 27, 2018, 05:40 PM   #17
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FWI, my heresay understanding is there are officially 2 legitimate "escaped" G18's available for civilian transfer. In private ownership.

Take it for what its worth.
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Old June 27, 2018, 05:55 PM   #18
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Jim Watson I thought you had to have a request from a government agency to produce a "post 86 sample" even with appropriate licenses.
Nope. The law letter is only required when transferring a post '86 machine gun to another FFL/SOT.
07FFL/SOT can manufacture them all day long......that's kinda the point of being an 07FFL/SOT.




Quote:
Not so? You can just crank out whatever you like but have to either keep it or pass it on to another dealer or armed government agency?
What the 07FFL/SOT manufactures is listed on a Form 2. If he want to transfer or sell to another FFL/SOT it would require a law letter on behalf of the transferee.


Quote:
I saw a daisy chain of small shops building "samples' and passing them around, but that was years ago and thought it had been stopped
Since 1934 there has been no "passing around". Transfer any NFA firearm still requires an approved Form 3 or Form 4. Post '86 machine guns are only transferrable to other FFL/SOT's with a law letter or to governmental agencies. If the FFL/SOT discontinues business, he must dispose of all these post '86 machine guns to another 01FFL/SOT w/law letter or to an 07FFL/SOT without one or to a governmental agency.

Quote:
along with the Clinton elimination of "hobby" dealers.
There has never been such a thing as a "hobby dealer". The dealer must be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms. It is a myth that Clinton eliminated a bunch of FFL's. In fact ATF gave those "dealers" every opportunity to get legal (obtain a business license, comply with local laws, sales tax permits, zoning, etc.) Most chose to relinquish their FFL rather than get legal. BTW, when they applied for that FFL they certified under penalty of law that they were actually going to be engaged in the business of dealing firearms and would comply with all federal, state and local laws.....in short, many of them flat out lied.


Quote:
I am not an anti-gunner, but there is a lot of stuff going on at the fringes of the NFA, GCA, and GOPA that would not pass Quacks Like a Duck scrutiny.
There is absolutely nothing on the fringes. It's either prohibited or regulated or its not. Just because you are unaware of the ability of an 07FFL/SOT to manufacture machine guns doesn't mean it's "at the fringes". For Pete's sake, Colt and Glocks 07FFL/SOT are no different than any other 07FFL/SOT.
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Old June 27, 2018, 05:57 PM   #19
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MTT TL In pistol configuration it is mostly a toy.
Absolute nonsense.
It is identical to a semi automatic Glock 17 except for the happy switch.
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Old June 27, 2018, 06:14 PM   #20
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Ok, in SA it is a Glock 17. In FA mostly a toy.
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Old June 27, 2018, 06:33 PM   #21
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Thanks, Tom.
Clear one thing up.
May an 07 SOT transfer a SMG to another 07 SOT without agency letter as you say above?

Fringe case: BATFE acceptance of an AR "pistol" with "brace" is arrant nonsense.
Seen in use they are not functionally different from a SBR.
Which there is no point in restricting, but it is the law.
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Old June 27, 2018, 10:47 PM   #22
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I can rent one at a range near me so the "military LEO" thing may have a work around.
It's not a "work around' because the law covers ownership. You rent the gun, there is no change of ownership. The legal owner is just letting you shoot it (under their supervision, never leaves their property etc.) and charging you for it.

Quote:
It is a myth that Clinton eliminated a bunch of FFL's. In fact ATF gave those "dealers" every opportunity to get legal (obtain a business license, comply with local laws, sales tax permits, zoning, etc.) Most chose to relinquish their FFL rather than get legal.
I don't think its a myth, more of a difference in point of view. If I remember right, the "hobby dealers" (aka kitchen table dealers) were ALREADY legal, complying with applicable local business and zoning laws as well as the FFL requirements.

What eliminated those guys who A)mostly did it for personal enjoyment, and B) operated on very small profit margins was the Clinton administration raising the price of the FFL license from $30 to $300 a year. They (mostly) didn't go out of the business rather than "get legal" they went out of business because the increase in the license fee cost them more than they were making. (added sufficient expense to negate their slim profits)
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Old June 28, 2018, 12:21 AM   #23
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I’ve never run a Glock 18 or 93R but have run a 17 converted to select fire (so basically a Glock 18)

I can see it’s use in a very limited usage envelope. With SHORT bursts it’s not all that bad but it’s easy to get away from you.

Like has been said I can see any of these being fairly useful for discrete body guard type duty. They are a perfectly fine Glock 17 if needed. However if needed you can slap a 33 rounder in and drop a quick wall of suppressive Get the hell out of dodge wall of lead.

Again their real world use is fairly narrow.

They are however a fantastic way to turn money to noise REALLY FAST. like make an MP5 feel semi auto fast. I like noise.
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Old June 28, 2018, 04:15 PM   #24
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MTT TL Ok, in SA it is a Glock 17. In FA mostly a toy.
Uh, no. I doubt any of the police departments issuing the G18 consider FA capability as a "toy" but as an advantage.

While you might consider full auto capable firearms as toys, most certainly LE & military do not.
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Old June 28, 2018, 04:21 PM   #25
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Jim Watson Thanks, Tom.
Clear one thing up.
May an 07 SOT transfer a SMG to another 07 SOT without agency letter as you say above?
The only time a law letter is not required for an 07FFL is when an 01 or 07FFL/SOT is going out of business. ATF/Federal law require the FFL/SOT to dispose of his post '86 machine guns.


Quote:
Fringe case: BATFE acceptance of an AR "pistol" with "brace" is arrant nonsense.
Seen in use they are not functionally different from a SBR.
Which there is no point in restricting, but it is the law.
When I saw the first SIG arm brace I said "that's just a crappy shoulder stock!". I think we are lucky that ATF was very liberal in their determination that it is not a stock. But that determination could change tomorrow at the whim of ATF Technical Branch.
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