What about 410 or 28 for self defense?

mbrevolver · August 27, 2006, 01:53 PM

Considering several comments "12 vs. 20 ga" thread, both may present issues w/ recoil, perhaps lessening one's desire to practice.

Even a 410 should have better stopping power than 45 or 357, in a more manageble package - sure the 12 or 20 gives you more oommph, but the 410/28 seem like an improvement over the always mentioned 9/45/357 in home defense threads...

Thoughts?

banditt007 · August 27, 2006, 04:16 PM

they make a .410 3" shell with 3 or 4 balls of 000 or 00 buckshot in a line. that would be my choice.

why hanicap yoruself though, its going to be hard to find ammo in that flavor for the .410 as well as the 28 gauge.

go 20 or 12 gauge IMO w/ reduced recoil loads and a bit of added weight to the gun its completely manageable.

plus its probably going to be a one shot kind of deal. so who cares what kind of recoil it is?

I see this as when you fall off a bike or fall down and really hurt yourself....you dont feel anything other than numbness for a few seconds. thats what i feel like it would be like in a life or death situation. recoil would make you go owww i dont think i can get a fast follow up shot now, infact i dont think i want to shoot again cause it hurt so much...

at the same time as you pointed out a .410 is more powerful than pretty much any 'normal' handgun and should do the job well.

hossdaniels · August 27, 2006, 05:41 PM

i have never seen anything for a 28 gauge but #6 or#8 shot, not the best choice for hd, maybe if you reload though? i have seen 410 shells with 3 buckshot pellets i think. still i think slugs are the way to go with 410. basicly back to handguns then though. i had a little cousin who took a deer with a 410 slug at 20 yds, never with buckshot.

kozak6 · August 27, 2006, 05:56 PM

I've seen ballistic data for some of those .410 slugs.

Very nasty, up close. It would do the trick.

Are there buckshot or slug loads for the 28 gauge? Birdshot isn't necessarily the best choice for self defense.

bbqbob51 · August 27, 2006, 06:41 PM

I started the 12 vs. 20 ga thread and I dismissed .410 because of the cost of the shells, very expensive compared to 12 and 20. Why is it that it that .410 shells are so expensive?

DOCSpanky · August 28, 2006, 10:01 AM

.410 are more expensive because the manufacturers don't benefit from the mass quantity discounts like 12 & 20 guage shells. It is simply supply and demand. If you reload for 12 or 20 guage it is very hard to break even on your reloading gear & supplies. If you reload for 16, 28, or .410 you can see real benefit to reloading those guages. Most especially if you buy in bulk from some of the shotgun specialist reloading suppliers. I have considered 28 guage for a while simply because Mr. Arthuritis is starting to nag at my right shoulder from years of tennis. Now that I am shooting alot more, even my chosen 20 guage really tells on me after a day of shooting.

FWIW IMHO

cloudcroft · August 28, 2006, 12:18 PM

If I chose to get a .410 bore shotgun for home defense, I would also plan to reload for it.

Yes, you have to buy factory ammo for it in the beginning, but you save all the empty hulls (after a practice session) and reload your own. Or get some .410 hulls at shooting/skeet ranges or out in the woods/desert where other people went out shooting and may have left some .410 hulls (not likely since the .410 is not common, but I HAVE found some out in the desert here on occasion).

Regardless, for the recoil-shy amongst us, the .410 would be fine...just get into reloading (simple and really not costly to do) and you'll have your ammo supply covered...cheaply.

You could even CAST your own buckshot which otherwise is pretty expensive to buy new in bags.

-- John D.

Crosshair · August 28, 2006, 02:10 PM

Personaly I would use slugs in .410. But a 00 or 000 buckshot load would do the job if you did your part. A 12 or 20 gauge gun gives you a little more leeway in shot placement.

banditt007 · August 29, 2006, 02:23 AM

you got to think here too, even a .410 shotgun is way more powerful than any reasonable handgun used for home protection.

w/ that said a .410 shotgun shell loaded w/ three, 00 buck rounds is basically like getting hit by 3, 00 buck rounds out of a 12 gauge. the speed is very similar its just payload that is different. thats pretty much how it is across the board w/ gauges. just a payload thing not so much difference in velocity.

w/ that said you have some stuff that penetrates like what 18" or so? and 3 wound channels that are approx 1/3" in diameter thats 1" total would channel which is substantially bigger than a well expanded hollow point from a .357 mag or a .45acp w/ similar if not more penetration.

This info is off the top of my head but i beleive it to be accurate if its not please correct me.. i dont want to barge in like a know it all and have my facts mixed up.

Maser · August 29, 2006, 03:01 AM

Now this is a pretty interesting thread. It's usually always the whole 12 vs 20 arguement. Nice to see something new. As far as a 28 gauge goes I pretty much have no experience with it. My first shotgun was a 12 gauge. Now as far as a .410 goes I really don't have much experience with it reguarding slugs or buckshot. The slug experience was pretty impressive. Them rifled slugs do great from the smoothbore .410.

If you want a truly impressive .410 HD shotgun you ought to try shooting a 3" .410 shell out of a .45LC derringer.

mikel_holt · August 29, 2006, 03:07 AM

beats screaming for help but thats about it. Look at it from a value standpoint. If you have to buy one, a .410 repeater is entirely too expensive to modify into an effective sized defensive weapon and a 28 gauge is in the same boat. Also the cost of shells as well as the availibility of effective defensive loads in either bore size is nil. I don't even like the 20 in this arena but it is marginally effective with the right loads.

mbrevolver · August 29, 2006, 09:28 AM

Compared to a new S&W revolver or .45 from many vendors, a 410 auto or pump is the low cost alternative.

Seems like you get more power, ease of use (for novice), but lose capacity, particularly compared to high cap 45.

But as they always say, you can't miss fast enough to...

If statistics are correct and the presentation of a firearm is of utmost importance, it's hard to beat the "crap in your pants" value of a shell racked into a chamber by a pump shotgun - any caliber...

mbrevolver · August 29, 2006, 09:33 AM

According to many knowledgeable folks on this forum and others, ANY shotgun load is effective for defense at short (w/in a house) range - you don't get a significant spread of any pellets w/in 5-7 yards. That's the beauty, a 410 w/ birdshot is still perhaps a better manstopper at pointblank range over 357 or 45...

DOCSpanky · August 29, 2006, 11:13 AM

I gotta side with MBR, unless you live in some huge mansion, very few homes have that many open spaces over 15 feet. In your home defense plan...... (you do all have one right?)..... you should know basically the easiest entry methods that someone may exploit into your home, and have your fields of fire pre-selected. Therefore ANY shotgun, even the frugal .410 is gonna remove a serious chunk of flesh or leave a good size hole at home defense ranges.

I still get such a kick out of people who go out and spend thousands on an AR-15 , then spend thousands more on mindless accessories, 100 round drum magazines, laser sights, scopes with which you could see the rings of Saturn, and are no safer than a guy with a well rehersed plan, pistol or shotgun that he usually uses for target or hunting hobbies, and a phone.

The reality is this, the best item for home defense is a small to medium dog that makes lots of noise. They typically have great loyalty to their master, unlike large dogs who tend to share dominance, and will attack a bad guy no matter their size and give their life in their masters defense. Thereby giving you time to blow his head off for hurting your dog, which attacking a pet in a home has and will continue to stand up in court on the principle that if the perp is willing to hurt your pet, he is willing to hurt you.

I digress, a .410 or 28 gauge at home defense ranges is MORE than adequate to deliver some sweet justice to anyone who might think to enter your home. I will stand next to my 20 gauge anyday with no second thought as to needing to have bought that 12 gauge.

At 15 feet it will be like "Lorna" said in Lethal weapon 3; "Riggs, with a shotgun, if he were any closer, I wouldn't be here!"

FWIW DOCSpanky

August 27, 2006, 01:53 PM	#1
mbrevolver Member Join Date: May 22, 2006 Posts: 37	What about 410 or 28 for self defense? Considering several comments "12 vs. 20 ga" thread, both may present issues w/ recoil, perhaps lessening one's desire to practice. Even a 410 should have better stopping power than 45 or 357, in a more manageble package - sure the 12 or 20 gives you more oommph, but the 410/28 seem like an improvement over the always mentioned 9/45/357 in home defense threads... Thoughts?

August 29, 2006, 03:07 AM	#11
mikel_holt Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2006 Location: Tuscumbia,AL Posts: 122	A .410 or 28 gauge... beats screaming for help but thats about it. Look at it from a value standpoint. If you have to buy one, a .410 repeater is entirely too expensive to modify into an effective sized defensive weapon and a 28 gauge is in the same boat. Also the cost of shells as well as the availibility of effective defensive loads in either bore size is nil. I don't even like the 20 in this arena but it is marginally effective with the right loads. __________________ To err is human, to forgive is devine. Neither happen to be my policy.

August 29, 2006, 09:28 AM	#12
mbrevolver Member Join Date: May 22, 2006 Posts: 37	cost an issue? not really Compared to a new S&W revolver or .45 from many vendors, a 410 auto or pump is the low cost alternative. Seems like you get more power, ease of use (for novice), but lose capacity, particularly compared to high cap 45. But as they always say, you can't miss fast enough to... If statistics are correct and the presentation of a firearm is of utmost importance, it's hard to beat the "crap in your pants" value of a shell racked into a chamber by a pump shotgun - any caliber...

August 29, 2006, 09:33 AM	#13
mbrevolver Member Join Date: May 22, 2006 Posts: 37	ooops, forgot According to many knowledgeable folks on this forum and others, ANY shotgun load is effective for defense at short (w/in a house) range - you don't get a significant spread of any pellets w/in 5-7 yards. That's the beauty, a 410 w/ birdshot is still perhaps a better manstopper at pointblank range over 357 or 45...

August 29, 2006, 11:13 AM	#14
DOCSpanky Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 1999 Location: Ashland City, TN Posts: 779	I gotta side with MBR, unless you live in some huge mansion, very few homes have that many open spaces over 15 feet. In your home defense plan...... (you do all have one right?)..... you should know basically the easiest entry methods that someone may exploit into your home, and have your fields of fire pre-selected. Therefore ANY shotgun, even the frugal .410 is gonna remove a serious chunk of flesh or leave a good size hole at home defense ranges. I still get such a kick out of people who go out and spend thousands on an AR-15 , then spend thousands more on mindless accessories, 100 round drum magazines, laser sights, scopes with which you could see the rings of Saturn, and are no safer than a guy with a well rehersed plan, pistol or shotgun that he usually uses for target or hunting hobbies, and a phone. The reality is this, the best item for home defense is a small to medium dog that makes lots of noise. They typically have great loyalty to their master, unlike large dogs who tend to share dominance, and will attack a bad guy no matter their size and give their life in their masters defense. Thereby giving you time to blow his head off for hurting your dog, which attacking a pet in a home has and will continue to stand up in court on the principle that if the perp is willing to hurt your pet, he is willing to hurt you. I digress, a .410 or 28 gauge at home defense ranges is MORE than adequate to deliver some sweet justice to anyone who might think to enter your home. I will stand next to my 20 gauge anyday with no second thought as to needing to have bought that 12 gauge. At 15 feet it will be like "Lorna" said in Lethal weapon 3; "Riggs, with a shotgun, if he were any closer, I wouldn't be here!" FWIW DOCSpanky __________________ "Government is not the solution to the problem, Government is the problem!"--Ronald Reagan

August 27, 2006, 04:16 PM	#2
banditt007 Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2006 Posts: 694	they make a .410 3" shell with 3 or 4 balls of 000 or 00 buckshot in a line. that would be my choice. why hanicap yoruself though, its going to be hard to find ammo in that flavor for the .410 as well as the 28 gauge. go 20 or 12 gauge IMO w/ reduced recoil loads and a bit of added weight to the gun its completely manageable. plus its probably going to be a one shot kind of deal. so who cares what kind of recoil it is? I see this as when you fall off a bike or fall down and really hurt yourself....you dont feel anything other than numbness for a few seconds. thats what i feel like it would be like in a life or death situation. recoil would make you go owww i dont think i can get a fast follow up shot now, infact i dont think i want to shoot again cause it hurt so much... at the same time as you pointed out a .410 is more powerful than pretty much any 'normal' handgun and should do the job well.

August 27, 2006, 05:41 PM	#3
hossdaniels Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2006 Posts: 162	i have never seen anything for a 28 gauge but #6 or#8 shot, not the best choice for hd, maybe if you reload though? i have seen 410 shells with 3 buckshot pellets i think. still i think slugs are the way to go with 410. basicly back to handguns then though. i had a little cousin who took a deer with a 410 slug at 20 yds, never with buckshot.

August 27, 2006, 05:56 PM	#4
kozak6 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 3,113	I've seen ballistic data for some of those .410 slugs. Very nasty, up close. It would do the trick. Are there buckshot or slug loads for the 28 gauge? Birdshot isn't necessarily the best choice for self defense.

August 27, 2006, 06:41 PM	#5
bbqbob51 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2005 Posts: 775	I started the 12 vs. 20 ga thread and I dismissed .410 because of the cost of the shells, very expensive compared to 12 and 20. Why is it that it that .410 shells are so expensive?

August 28, 2006, 10:01 AM	#6
DOCSpanky Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 1999 Location: Ashland City, TN Posts: 779	.410 are more expensive because the manufacturers don't benefit from the mass quantity discounts like 12 & 20 guage shells. It is simply supply and demand. If you reload for 12 or 20 guage it is very hard to break even on your reloading gear & supplies. If you reload for 16, 28, or .410 you can see real benefit to reloading those guages. Most especially if you buy in bulk from some of the shotgun specialist reloading suppliers. I have considered 28 guage for a while simply because Mr. Arthuritis is starting to nag at my right shoulder from years of tennis. Now that I am shooting alot more, even my chosen 20 guage really tells on me after a day of shooting. FWIW IMHO __________________ "Government is not the solution to the problem, Government is the problem!"--Ronald Reagan

August 28, 2006, 12:18 PM	#7
cloudcroft Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2006 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 565	If I chose to get a .410 bore shotgun for home defense, I would also plan to reload for it. Yes, you have to buy factory ammo for it in the beginning, but you save all the empty hulls (after a practice session) and reload your own. Or get some .410 hulls at shooting/skeet ranges or out in the woods/desert where other people went out shooting and may have left some .410 hulls (not likely since the .410 is not common, but I HAVE found some out in the desert here on occasion). Regardless, for the recoil-shy amongst us, the .410 would be fine...just get into reloading (simple and really not costly to do) and you'll have your ammo supply covered...cheaply. You could even CAST your own buckshot which otherwise is pretty expensive to buy new in bags. -- John D.

August 28, 2006, 02:10 PM	#8
Crosshair Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 5,333	Personaly I would use slugs in .410. But a 00 or 000 buckshot load would do the job if you did your part. A 12 or 20 gauge gun gives you a little more leeway in shot placement. __________________ I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.

August 29, 2006, 02:23 AM	#9
banditt007 Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2006 Posts: 694	you got to think here too, even a .410 shotgun is way more powerful than any reasonable handgun used for home protection. w/ that said a .410 shotgun shell loaded w/ three, 00 buck rounds is basically like getting hit by 3, 00 buck rounds out of a 12 gauge. the speed is very similar its just payload that is different. thats pretty much how it is across the board w/ gauges. just a payload thing not so much difference in velocity. w/ that said you have some stuff that penetrates like what 18" or so? and 3 wound channels that are approx 1/3" in diameter thats 1" total would channel which is substantially bigger than a well expanded hollow point from a .357 mag or a .45acp w/ similar if not more penetration. This info is off the top of my head but i beleive it to be accurate if its not please correct me.. i dont want to barge in like a know it all and have my facts mixed up.

August 29, 2006, 03:01 AM	#10
Maser Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 2006 Location: Mysterious Cities of Gold Posts: 920	Now this is a pretty interesting thread. It's usually always the whole 12 vs 20 arguement. Nice to see something new. As far as a 28 gauge goes I pretty much have no experience with it. My first shotgun was a 12 gauge. Now as far as a .410 goes I really don't have much experience with it reguarding slugs or buckshot. The slug experience was pretty impressive. Them rifled slugs do great from the smoothbore .410. If you want a truly impressive .410 HD shotgun you ought to try shooting a 3" .410 shell out of a .45LC derringer.