Reloads for Self Defense - Page 3

Alaska444 · February 17, 2012, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Today, 01:28 PM #49
Pbearperry
Senior Member

Join Date: December 9, 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 248

Just for once I would love to see an actual case where someone involved in a good,clean shoot,was put through the wringer for using handloads.To me,this is as rediculous as someone giving his car a tuneup at home and getting in an accident.I call B.S on this urban legend.

Not a self defense case, but nevertheless, here is a person put through the ringer for hand loaded ammo:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n26806104/

Jammer Six · February 17, 2012, 07:48 PM

Is it spring yet?

They're out early...

You're not reading the thread. That is the case that was discussed (and dismissed) earlier. It's the case all of Ayoob's cult like to trot out.

Alaska444 · February 17, 2012, 08:33 PM

No but you can crawl back under your rock again. As I stated, not a self defense case, but the same standards apply to hand loads.

In any case, I am quite taken aback by the high number of folks that would brave the legal system with reloads. Not that it wouldn't be winnable, but it will cost you more with out a doubt. I guess everyone here must be a bunch of millionaires. Not me, I will stick to factory ammo.

Sarge · February 18, 2012, 12:54 AM

Good legislation and common sense can render the 'zillion dollar defense' argument irrelevant.

Excerpted from MO's castle doctrine law-

Quote:

563.074. 1. Notwithstanding the provisions of section 563.016, a person who uses force as described in sections 563.031, 563.041, 563.046, 563.051, 563.056, and 563.061 is justified in using such force and such fact shall be an absolute defense to criminal prosecution or civil liability.

2. The court shall award attorney's fees, court costs, and all reasonable expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant has an absolute defense as provided in subsection 1 of this section.

and...

Quote:

Missouri Revised Statutes
Chapter 273
Dogs--Cats
Section 273.033

Killing or injuring a dog, reasonable apprehension of imminent harm is an absolute defense.

273.033. 1. In any action for damages or a criminal prosecution against any person for killing or injuring a dog, a showing by a preponderance of the evidence that such person was in reasonable apprehension of imminent harmful contact by the dog or was acting to prevent such imminent harmful contact against another person by the dog shall constitute an absolute defense to criminal prosecution or civil liability for the killing or injuring of such animal.

Good shoot- no civil OR criminal case

Mike / Tx · February 18, 2012, 06:33 AM

Well having read through most of the post on this and several other topics similar, my firearms all are loaded with my own loads plain and simple. In fact I hardly own nor purchase any factory ammo what so ever, and some have never fire anything factory at all. If there is ever a need to use one for self defense, whether at home or on the road, my loads are what will be in the chamber, plain and simple.

I have not and do not use anything out of the ordinary, and do not feel that I load to any extremes. I also do not delight in the fact that it is in any way overly destructive on an intruder, and surly do not ever purposely want to have to use it in that manner.

This said I hunt deer and feral hogs with just about every one of my firearms, and as such load accordingly well within any manuals load criteria. If needed for a SD situation I feel very sure they will do whatever is needed to be done at the time, without any speculation that they were in any form something special, loaded for that, or any particular SD purpose.

Sarge · February 18, 2012, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaska444

Not every state has that type of protection. For the rest of us outside of Missouri, contending with the zillion dollar defense is a real issue.

I never said that they did- but the fact is, more and more states are adopting Castle Doctrine laws. Seems to me that actually researching the law, in your respective states, might be a more profitable use of time than screeching 'The sky is falling!' and regurgitating a freak manslaughter case in which the 'reload guy' was convicted by a jury of his peers.

Clark · February 18, 2012, 11:36 AM

I have seen the reloads question addressed many times in many forums over many years.

My favorite post was a calculation to compare the probability of any legal trouble from carrying handloads to the probability of being struck by lightning.

I did not know that lighting was such a mathematical major concern.

After reading that, I always carry handloads, but I never go outside where I could be hit by lightning.

Sarge · February 18, 2012, 11:58 AM

LOL Clark... I have doubly tempted fate by carrying cast-bullet reloads in a Glock. Might KaBoom, but at least the plastic handle would afford some protection against the lightning-strike that would inevitably follow.

radom · February 18, 2012, 02:15 PM

If you end up in a court of law with a jury in a case I would think what ammo you used would be the last of a persons worrys. No idea on the rest of the world but here in Oregon it would probably never even come up. Any shooting will go to a grand jury with one question and one only. Was the shooting a legaly justified situation,if so its the end of the issue or it was not then you have more to worry on than the ammo in the gun.

My thought is lethal is lethal and the this is more lethal than needed is a totaly stupid idea.

Clark · February 18, 2012, 06:31 PM

I have seen this topic beat to death, and with attorneys contributing and debating.
I think at this stage, the important thing is to enjoy the topic and don't take it too seriously.
As Rush points out, we have bred a generation that can tolerate no risk, while everything has risk, and that is allowing people to be manipulated.

My son told me that my calculation of probability in a card game is getting approximately the right answer, but I am doing it wrong. He might be right.

SHR970 · February 18, 2012, 06:32 PM

I'm going to add my two cents for the second and last time on this one.

1) I live in the Demokratik Peoples Rebublik of Kommifornia.

2) I am not allowed a concealed carry permit in my part of the state as we have MAY issue. My use of force involving a firearm will either be at my place of residence, camping (camp is considered residence) OR while out hunting.

3) I know exactly what CPC 197 & 198.5 says. This is what allows use of deadly force in a justifiable manner.

4) I do not use ammunition that is prohibited ie. armor piercing or tracer. (CPC 12320-12323)

5) I am more worried that either the PD, DA, or Grand Jury will look at the gun used as some kind of Banned Assault Weapon (CPC 12275 - 12290) and try to charge me with that.

6)If a perp.s family wants to bring it on in civil court; I'm not going to merely defend myself. I will counter sue them and if possible their attorney for having the audacity to further harrass me over the traumatic event that caused us to be there in the first place.

Know what your state laws are and make your decision based on those laws.

After all, last I remember New Jersey prohibits the use of hollowpoint ammunition. If that is still true, some Factory Ammunition will land you in hot water.

Roughedge · February 18, 2012, 07:37 PM

I have allways carried my loads in my carry gun. Why would you tell them where the bullets came from anyway? You can allways say you bought some reloads at the gun show because they was cheep. Not all cops are CSI's like on TV and they cant trace you bullets back to your reloading machine. Some DA was most likely bragging about his homemade supper bullets killing someone in one shot and the right lawyer overheard him and made his case on it.

m&p45acp10+1 · February 18, 2012, 08:14 PM

As has been stated know your state's laws. Here in Texas it is not based on what you used. If you use deadly force to defend yourself you will be going to a grand jury hearing. There are two possible decisions. Justified, in which if deemed justified you are waived of civil liability. Meaning no poor misundestood bad guy lawsuits. Or Not Justified. If not justified then you will be incicted and criminaly charged. Law suit is the least of ones worries in that case. As well as what ammo type was used. Justification for deadly force laws in Texas are fairly cut and dry.

Know your state laws.

**JohnKSa** · February 19, 2012, 03:19 AM

Closed.

Some cleaning work to remove excessive "snark" and to preserve some level of continuity after the cleanup work.

As nate45 said or implied practically from the beginning of this thread, almost every aspect of this contentious topic has been hashed and rehashed with the results saved in this repository thread: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=452627

View Poll Results: Would you use your own reloads for your Self Defense carry ammunition?
Yes	97	66.44%
No	49	33.56%
Voters: 146. You may not vote on this poll

February 17, 2012, 07:48 PM	#52
Jammer Six Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 827	Is it spring yet? They're out early... You're not reading the thread. That is the case that was discussed (and dismissed) earlier. It's the case all of Ayoob's cult like to trot out. __________________ "Huh?" --Jammer Six, 1998

February 18, 2012, 06:33 AM	#55
Mike / Tx Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2000 Posts: 2,101	Well having read through most of the post on this and several other topics similar, my firearms all are loaded with my own loads plain and simple. In fact I hardly own nor purchase any factory ammo what so ever, and some have never fire anything factory at all. If there is ever a need to use one for self defense, whether at home or on the road, my loads are what will be in the chamber, plain and simple. I have not and do not use anything out of the ordinary, and do not feel that I load to any extremes. I also do not delight in the fact that it is in any way overly destructive on an intruder, and surly do not ever purposely want to have to use it in that manner. This said I hunt deer and feral hogs with just about every one of my firearms, and as such load accordingly well within any manuals load criteria. If needed for a SD situation I feel very sure they will do whatever is needed to be done at the time, without any speculation that they were in any form something special, loaded for that, or any particular SD purpose. __________________ LAter, Mike / TX Last edited by Mike / Tx; February 18, 2012 at 06:39 AM.

February 18, 2012, 11:36 AM	#57
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	I have seen the reloads question addressed many times in many forums over many years. My favorite post was a calculation to compare the probability of any legal trouble from carrying handloads to the probability of being struck by lightning. I did not know that lighting was such a mathematical major concern. After reading that, I always carry handloads, but I never go outside where I could be hit by lightning. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

February 18, 2012, 11:58 AM	#58
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	LOL Clark... I have doubly tempted fate by carrying cast-bullet reloads in a Glock. Might KaBoom, but at least the plastic handle would afford some protection against the lightning-strike that would inevitably follow. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

February 17, 2012, 08:33 PM	#53
Alaska444 Junior member Join Date: April 3, 2010 Posts: 1,231	No but you can crawl back under your rock again. As I stated, not a self defense case, but the same standards apply to hand loads. In any case, I am quite taken aback by the high number of folks that would brave the legal system with reloads. Not that it wouldn't be winnable, but it will cost you more with out a doubt. I guess everyone here must be a bunch of millionaires. Not me, I will stick to factory ammo.

February 18, 2012, 02:15 PM	#59
radom Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 1,353	If you end up in a court of law with a jury in a case I would think what ammo you used would be the last of a persons worrys. No idea on the rest of the world but here in Oregon it would probably never even come up. Any shooting will go to a grand jury with one question and one only. Was the shooting a legaly justified situation,if so its the end of the issue or it was not then you have more to worry on than the ammo in the gun. My thought is lethal is lethal and the this is more lethal than needed is a totaly stupid idea.

February 18, 2012, 06:31 PM	#60
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	I have seen this topic beat to death, and with attorneys contributing and debating. I think at this stage, the important thing is to enjoy the topic and don't take it too seriously. As Rush points out, we have bred a generation that can tolerate no risk, while everything has risk, and that is allowing people to be manipulated. My son told me that my calculation of probability in a card game is getting approximately the right answer, but I am doing it wrong. He might be right. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

February 18, 2012, 06:32 PM	#61
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	I'm going to add my two cents for the second and last time on this one. 1) I live in the Demokratik Peoples Rebublik of Kommifornia. 2) I am not allowed a concealed carry permit in my part of the state as we have MAY issue. My use of force involving a firearm will either be at my place of residence, camping (camp is considered residence) OR while out hunting. 3) I know exactly what CPC 197 & 198.5 says. This is what allows use of deadly force in a justifiable manner. 4) I do not use ammunition that is prohibited ie. armor piercing or tracer. (CPC 12320-12323) 5) I am more worried that either the PD, DA, or Grand Jury will look at the gun used as some kind of Banned Assault Weapon (CPC 12275 - 12290) and try to charge me with that. 6)If a perp.s family wants to bring it on in civil court; I'm not going to merely defend myself. I will counter sue them and if possible their attorney for having the audacity to further harrass me over the traumatic event that caused us to be there in the first place. Know what your state laws are and make your decision based on those laws. After all, last I remember New Jersey prohibits the use of hollowpoint ammunition. If that is still true, some Factory Ammunition will land you in hot water. Last edited by SHR970; February 18, 2012 at 08:03 PM.

February 18, 2012, 07:37 PM	#62
Roughedge Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Location: Monroe,NC Posts: 669	I have allways carried my loads in my carry gun. Why would you tell them where the bullets came from anyway? You can allways say you bought some reloads at the gun show because they was cheep. Not all cops are CSI's like on TV and they cant trace you bullets back to your reloading machine. Some DA was most likely bragging about his homemade supper bullets killing someone in one shot and the right lawyer overheard him and made his case on it. __________________ The man that die's with the most stuff win's!

February 18, 2012, 08:14 PM	#63
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	As has been stated know your state's laws. Here in Texas it is not based on what you used. If you use deadly force to defend yourself you will be going to a grand jury hearing. There are two possible decisions. Justified, in which if deemed justified you are waived of civil liability. Meaning no poor misundestood bad guy lawsuits. Or Not Justified. If not justified then you will be incicted and criminaly charged. Law suit is the least of ones worries in that case. As well as what ammo type was used. Justification for deadly force laws in Texas are fairly cut and dry. Know your state laws. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

February 19, 2012, 03:19 AM	#64
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,972	Closed. Some cleaning work to remove excessive "snark" and to preserve some level of continuity after the cleanup work. As nate45 said or implied practically from the beginning of this thread, almost every aspect of this contentious topic has been hashed and rehashed with the results saved in this repository thread: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=452627 __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?