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Old February 18, 2018, 01:56 PM   #1
KyleYankee
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C&R license investigation

I understand that C&R license holders who are NOT dealers are occasionally investigated by the ATF, if they are selling their C&R inventory or just firearms in general.

I'd like to get my C&R license, but I also follow the golden rule: Never sell or trade anything!

Does that mean I am safe from sales investigations or are they routine and happen to license holders arbitrarily?
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Old February 18, 2018, 03:51 PM   #2
dogtown tom
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KyleYankee I understand that C&R license holders who are NOT dealers are occasionally investigated by the ATF, if they are selling their C&R inventory or just firearms in general.
If you are being investigated it's because ATF has a belief that you are in violation of Federal law.

An 03FFL "Collector of Curios & Relics" is a license for collecting certain firearms and absolutely not for engaging in the business of dealing in firearms. An 03FFL who engages in "flipping" guns too often (even C&R eligible) may be found to be in violation.

A compliance inspection on the other hand is something you agree to allow when you apply for your C&R. It means ATF can review your recordkeeping. Keeping a record of your acquisitions and dispositions is a requirement under Federal law.





Quote:
I'd like to get my C&R license, but I also follow the golden rule: Never sell or trade anything!
There is no requirement to sell or trade any of the firearms you acquire via your C&R license.

Quote:
Does that mean I am safe from sales investigations or are they routine and happen to license holders arbitrarily?
I'm an 01FFL Dealer. I've had two compliance inspections in nine and a half years. Very few 03's will ever have an inspection. Even then 03's can choose to meet at the ATF local office instead of their premises.
Federal law prohibits ATF from conducting an inspection more than once per year.
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Old February 18, 2018, 06:21 PM   #3
DaleA
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Quote:
A compliance inspection on the other hand is something you agree to...
Thanks for the clarification on that. You mentioned you'd been through a couple. If you don't mind answering, what was the attitude of the inspectors? Were the inspections totally unannounced or did they make an appointment?
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Old February 18, 2018, 06:26 PM   #4
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I have had a C&R License for a lot of years now and have never been bothered by the ATF.
Anytime I have ever had a question or issue they have always helpful with whatever I wanted to know.
What kind of annoys me know unless they stopped it I use to get a quarterly newsletter from them.
I haven’t used mine in a long time but I kept the license for when I travel.
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Old February 19, 2018, 10:45 PM   #5
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DaleA Thanks for the clarification on that. You mentioned you'd been through a couple. If you don't mind answering, what was the attitude of the inspectors? Were the inspections totally unannounced or did they make an appointment?
The first was when I had my first license renewal. The IOI thought he was coming to do a premises inspection, but stayed a couple of hours and only looked at a few months worth of 4473's. He was businesslike and a nice eough fellow. The second was three IOI's the first night, one for the next two, and two for the last night. Since I'm a teacher by day they could only conduct the inspection during my business hours after school. All were friendly but businesslike and very efficient. They reviewed every single 4473 for the previous 12 months.

In both instances they contacted me prior to the compliance inspection. That's not unusual for home based dealers.
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Old February 21, 2018, 11:18 AM   #6
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I had a C&R and tied to talk to quite a few people in regard to this issue. I found one 03FFL who had been audited. He collected a specific type of relatively inexpensive semi-auto surplus handgun and on several occasions bought multiple guns at one time from 01FFLs. I forget how many, but it was not two or three. More like ten. I suspect the 01FFL sent something to the ATFE with concerns about his purchasing pattern. He said the ATFE was pretty lax about the inspection. A quick look at his book, talking with him, etc. Basically when he started talking about all the markings on the pistols and knew them inside and out they really didn't seem concerned.

I bought a number of Nagant pistols back when they were $75, so I was worried about it. I also have been in a slow period of collection every time my license comes up for renewal. I seem to be interested in collecting for about a year at a time then not interested for three or four years. It ends up expiring and I don't get a new one until I get interested again. As a result I have no records for my first two license periods that could be audited.
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Old February 21, 2018, 12:37 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnwilliamson062
I found one 03FFL who had been audited. He collected a specific type of relatively inexpensive semi-auto surplus handgun and on several occasions bought multiple guns at one time from 01FFLs... I suspect the 01FFL sent something to the ATFE with concerns about his purchasing pattern.
Yup, and this could have happened two ways:
  1. The ATF did a compliance inspection on the originating FFL and red-flagged the transaction. FWIW a friendly local FFL has told me that multiple-firearm transactions are the primary thing that ATF agents look at as they pore through his bound book during compliance inspections. ("Do you remember this woman? Did she mention why she was buying five identical _____s all at once?")
  2. The 03 FFL bought the handguns in-state and over-the-counter as an individual rather than by using his FFL, probably because he didn't have a copy of the license handy; this was a frequent issue I had while impulse-shopping when I was an 03 FFL. When an FFL sells multiple handguns to the same unlicensed person within five consecutive business days, he/she is required to send in a Form 3310.4 "Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers" to the ATF. Filing the form is NOT required when selling to another FFL, but the ATF may have cross-referenced the name and address.
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Old February 21, 2018, 06:58 PM   #8
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Sorry all, I meant "INSPECTED" not "INVESTIGATED". I didn't know if the inspections were more like "harassments" and/or how frequently they happen.
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Old February 21, 2018, 11:52 PM   #9
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The pistols were ordered from a surplus distributor if I remember correctly.
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Old February 22, 2018, 06:37 PM   #10
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Thanks for the info Dogtown Tom. You answered my question very well. I had always wondered what the inspectors would do for part time folk that don't keep 9 to 5 hours. Thanks.
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Old February 25, 2018, 04:56 PM   #11
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I have never been inspected. When one applies for renewal of the license, I believe the ATF looks at the entry of "number of guns purchased and number of guns sold." Mine always says sold=ZERO. If I were the ATF, I'd audit if you sold more than 2 guns a year.
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Old February 26, 2018, 12:02 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleA
Thanks for the info Dogtown Tom. You answered my question very well. I had always wondered what the inspectors would do for part time folk that don't keep 9 to 5 hours.
Dogtown is an 01 FFL. 01 FFLs must have regular business hours. Doesn't have to be 9:00 to 5:00, Monday through Friday. It can be Sunday afternoons from 1:00 p.m. to 4:00 p.m., but to be an 01 FFL you have to establish something as your regular business hours, and the ATF is supposed to be able to visit you unannounced during those hours.

An 03 is a personal, not business, license, so regular hours don't apply.
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Old February 26, 2018, 04:48 PM   #13
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I believe the rule for a 03 FFL is ATFE must give a minimum of 24 hours notice before requiring inspection. A quick google search turned up a couple of claims about compliance inspection officers showing up at a residence, offering to meet at their office later and sort of playing the 'it would simply if you just let me in to your house to do the inspection now' card.
Google search inspections. There are plenty of posts by people claiming to have gone through them.
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Old February 26, 2018, 06:42 PM   #14
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Quote:
johnwilliamson062 I believe the rule for a 03 FFL is ATFE must give a minimum of 24 hours notice before requiring inspection.
Never has there been such a rule.


Quote:
A quick google search turned up a couple of claims about compliance inspection officers showing up at a residence, offering to meet at their office later and sort of playing the 'it would simply if you just let me in to your house to do the inspection now' card.
Google search inspections. There are plenty of posts by people claiming to have gone through them.
Why trust Google when you can get the word straight from the actual regulations at ATF.gov?
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...8_123&rgn=div8

Quote:
§478.23 Right of entry and examination.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b), any ATF officer, when there is reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred and that evidence of the violation may be found on the premises of any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, may, upon demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate and obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, enter during business hours (or, in the case of a licensed collector, the hours of operation) the premises, including places of storage, of any such licensee for the purpose of inspecting or examining:

(1) Any records or documents required to be kept by such licensee under this part and

(2) Any inventory of firearms or ammunition kept or stored by any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer at such premises or any firearms curios or relics or ammunition kept or stored by any licensed collector at such premises.

(b) Any ATF officer, without having reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred or that evidence of the violation may be found and without demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate or obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, may enter during business hours the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer for the purpose of inspecting or examining the records, documents, ammunition and firearms referred to in paragraph (a) of this section:

(1) In the course of a reasonable inquiry during the course of a criminal investigation of a person or persons other than the licensee,

(2) For insuring compliance with the recordkeeping requirements of this part:

(i) Not more than once during any 12-month period, or

(ii) At any time with respect to records relating to a firearm involved in a criminal investigation that is traced to the licensee, or

(3) When such inspection or examination may be required for determining the disposition of one or more particular firearms in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation.

(c) Any ATF officer, without having reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred or that evidence of the violation may be found and without demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate or obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, may enter during hours of operation the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed collector for the purpose of inspecting or examining the records, documents, firearms, and ammunition referred to in paragraph (a) of this section (1) for ensuring compliance with the recordkeeping requirements of this part not more than once during any 12-month period or (2) when such inspection or examination may be required for determining the disposition of one or more particular firearms in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation. At the election of the licensed collector, the annual inspection permitted by this paragraph shall be performed at the ATF office responsible for conducting such inspection in closest proximity to the collectors premises.
(d) The inspections and examinations provided by this section do not authorize an ATF officer to seize any records or documents other than those records or documents constituting material evidence of a violation of law. If an ATF officer seizes such records or documents, copies shall be provided the licensee within a reasonable time.

[T.D. ATF-270, 53 FR 10492, Mar. 31, 1988, as amended by T.D. ATF-363, 60 FR 17450, Apr. 6, 1995]
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Old February 26, 2018, 10:45 PM   #15
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(a)"upon demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate and obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry"
(b)"may enter during business hours the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer" (collector is not mentioned in (b)
(c)"may enter during hours of operation the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed collector" What are a collectors hours of operation? I can't remember filing any hours with them on my 03 applications. Maybe I did and don't remember. Maybe it is something new.

I didn't say law, I said rule. ATFE uses a lot more than federal law to make decisions. I bet their policy manuals are several NYC phone books. If you can find a 03 FFL willing to indicate ATFE showed up without a warrant at their licensed location and forced their way in without giving notice or offering to do it later, than I would love to hear it. In all claims I have ever seen ATFE gave notice which indicates to me it is their established policy to do so. A policy being a rule established by management for the peons to follow.
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Old February 27, 2018, 11:40 AM   #16
dogtown tom
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Quote:
johnwilliamson062 (
a)"upon demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate and obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry"
(b)"may enter during business hours the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer" (collector is not mentioned in (b)
(c)"may enter during hours of operation the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed collector"
To be clear......paragraph (a) deals with entry using a search warrant for investigating a crime.
Paragraph (b) deals with compliance inspection of licensees who are NOT collectors. It's the regulation that requires the licensee to make his records available for inspection. It is not a criminal investigation.

Paragraph (c) deals with collectors. Refusal to allow inspection of your records is grounds for revocation of a collectors 03FFL. The collector can either allow ATF entry into their premises or meet at the local ATF office.




Quote:
What are a collectors hours of operation?
Whatever the collector says are his hours of operation.

Quote:
I didn't say law, I said rule.
Well........when it's a "rule", it's a regulation, which carries the weight of a law. I quoted the "rule", also known as the regulation.

And again, there is not (and never has been) a rule requiring "a minimum 24 hour notice".


Quote:
ATFE uses a lot more than federal law to make decisions.
Ummm......not really. ATF regulations must be grounded in an actual Federal law. Of course those laws and subsequent regulations can change due to Federal court decisions such as Thompson Center.


Quote:
I bet their policy manuals are several NYC phone books.
You would lose.
I've been posting citations to ATF regulations for almost ten years on this website. I know you've seen those posts...........but did you bother to read them? Did you bother to visit ATF.gov and read anything there? Why not?

You can't engage in debate when your research is based on feelings and gossip.



Quote:
If you can find a 03 FFL willing to indicate ATFE showed up without a warrant at their licensed location and forced their way in without giving notice or offering to do it later, than I would love to hear it.
No one said anything of the sort. In fact what I posted says they CAN"T.
One more time:
Quote:
(c) Any ATF officer, without having reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred or that evidence of the violation may be found and without demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate or obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, may enter during hours of operation the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed collector for the purpose of inspecting or examining the records, documents, firearms, and ammunition referred to in paragraph (a) of this section (1) for ensuring compliance with the recordkeeping requirements of this part not more than once during any 12-month period or (2) when such inspection or examination may be required for determining the disposition of one or more particular firearms in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation. At the election of the licensed collector, the annual inspection permitted by this paragraph shall be performed at the ATF office responsible for conducting such inspection in closest proximity to the collectors premises.
See the part in bold text?




Quote:
In all claims I have ever seen ATFE gave notice which indicates to me it is their established policy to do so. A policy being a rule established by management for the peons to follow.
ATF will often call a home based 01FFL Dealer because they know its not likely to be their full time business and the licensee may not be home.......and they don't have time to waste a trip. For an 03FFL Collector...the same reasoning AND to give the 03 the opportunity to meet at the ATF office.
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Last edited by dogtown tom; February 27, 2018 at 03:09 PM.
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Old February 28, 2018, 12:13 AM   #17
johnwilliamson062
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I know the first two don't apply to 03, that is why I cut out everything except the part that shows it does not apply.

03 FFLs do not have hours of operations like 01 FFLs. One does not need to list any hours on the application. ATFE CAN'T just show up during the 'hours of operation' because there are not any. They have to arrange a meeting.

Federal law isn't comprehensive. They come up with policies that fill in the gaps. There is nothing about a policy of 24 hour notice that would contradict federal law.

Last edited by johnwilliamson062; February 28, 2018 at 12:25 AM.
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Old February 28, 2018, 12:41 AM   #18
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Quote:
johnwilliamson062 I know the first two don't apply to 03, that is why I cut out everything except the part that shows it does not apply.
Sorry John, it DOES apply.....it ALL applies.


Quote:
03 FFLs do not have hours of operations like 01 FFLs. One does not need to list any hours on the application. ATFE CAN'T just show up during the 'hours of operation' because there are not any.
Nonsense. You need to actually read the application before telling anyone what it does or does not say.....'cause once again you are flat wrong.
ALL applicants must answer Que 12 on the Application for a Federal Firearms License:https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/fo...31016/download
Note Question 12:
12. Hours of Operation and/or Availability of Business/Activity (please provide at least one hour in which you can be contacted by ATF personnel)
That question applies to every applicant. "Collecting" is an "activity" is it not?



Quote:
They have to arrange a meeting.
Again, no they don't. I think I provided ample proof that they don't, so now it's your turn to show otherwise.
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Old February 28, 2018, 11:14 AM   #19
johnwilliamson062
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Quote:
it ALL applies.
(a) applies in that a states no license get you out of a warrant search. I'm not sure why that was even put in there. Was there a past issue where people try to stop LEO from serving a warrant b/c they had an FFL? It does not provide any exposure over what any normal person's exposure. If LEO get a warrant they can search. So, I don't think it applies to this discussion.

(b)
Quote:
Paragraph (b) deals with compliance inspection of licensees who are NOT collectors.
You yourself said this does not apply.

(c) There used to be a box that one could check saying you were a C&R and skip the hours of operations/activity question. They re-did the form and removed that box. The form before that had small print indicating it was not necessary. The forms also aren't designed by federal law. People are leaving the box empty, writing N/A, etc., and getting approved. I've also discussed this issue with people I know when the change was made, but I can't cite those conversations. Is it your opinion ATFE is attempting to mandate all collectors perform weekly cleaning of their collections during a certain hour and if an ATFE officer shows up to check the books during that hour one could lose their license?
I know a 03 FFL who winters in Florida. He certainly isn't going to be available if they come knocking at his northern house at whatever hour during January.
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Old February 28, 2018, 12:45 PM   #20
dogtown tom
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Quote:
johnwilliamson062
Quote:
Quote:
it ALL applies.
(a) applies in that a states no license get you out of a warrant search.
Can you rephrase that? It doesn't make sense.



Quote:
I'm not sure why that was even put in there.
Was there a past issue where people try to stop LEO from serving a warrant b/c they had an FFL? It does not provide any exposure over what any normal person's exposure. If LEO get a warrant they can search. So, I don't think it applies to this discussion.
It all applies to the discussion because there is so much misinformation regarding ATF and compliance inspections. Heck, just YOUR posts are chock full of bad information. I post the exact quote from ATF regulations to show what the "rules" actually are.

The "right to entry" covers two things:
1. If ATF believes that the licensee has committed a crime, they need a search warrant signed by a judge.
2. If ATF wants to perform a compliance inspection they don't need a warrant.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Paragraph (b) deals with compliance inspection of licensees who are NOT collectors.
You yourself said this does not apply.
Good grief man.........the entire passage I quoted APPLIES to ATF §478.23 Right of entry and examination.......to licensees.

While I get it that you want to poke holes in my argument, you're going to need to do a better job than what you've shown so far.


Quote:
(c) There used to be a box that one could check saying you were a C&R and skip the hours of operations/activity question. They re-did the form and removed that box. The form before that had small print indicating it was not necessary.
No kidding.
Gas used to be 33cents a gallon too.



Quote:
The forms also aren't designed by federal law.
WRONG. Federal law requires ATF to develop the procedures, forms and regulations as required by the GCA, NFA, etc. To believe the stinking form is somehow not applicable is not only silly but bordering on sheer ignorance.

When the applicant sign the form this text is right above their signature: "21. Certification: Under the penalties imposed by 18 U.S.C. 924, I declare that I have examined this application in its entirety and the documents submitted in support thereof and to the best of my knowledge and belief, they are true, correct, and complete......"

In short, fail to answer a Federal form honestly and completely and you subject yourself to fines and or imprisonment. And if you don't think that possible read U.S. vs Abramski.


Quote:
People are leaving the box empty, writing N/A, etc., and getting approved.
And I have ATF tax stamps issued on a silencer with Remington as the manufacturer. Yet Remington has never manufactured a single silencer.....their subsidiary Advanced Armament does.

Whether ATF does/does not enforce a regulation isn't germane, the regulation remains and IF ATF wanted they could reject any FFL application for such omissions.


Quote:
I've also discussed this issue with people I know when the change was made, but I can't cite those conversations. Is it your opinion ATFE is attempting to mandate all collectors perform weekly cleaning of their collections during a certain hour and if an ATFE officer shows up to check the books during that hour one could lose their license?
Nice try, but I never said anything of the sort. In fact, a couple of posts above I DID WRITE" "Refusal to allow inspection of your records is grounds for revocation of a collectors 03FFL. The collector can either allow ATF entry into their premises or meet at the local ATF office."
If you have evidence that a collector can refuse ATF to perform a compliance inspection then post a citation to the regulation that allows that. You won't of course, because no such regulation or rule permits that...just like your "24 hour notice" rule doesn't exist.

And what the heck does "cleaning" of a collection have to do with a compliance inspection? I'll answer...NOTHING. That's a pathetic attempt to obfuscate the discussion.

AGAIN, you need to read the regulation and the Form 7. What you learn from gossip isn't Federal law or ATF regulation.

The purpose of Question 12 on the Form 7 is to show when "...you can be contacted by ATF personnel...". If you don't put down at least one hour you can expect a knock on the door at any hour.



Quote:
I know a 03 FFL who winters in Florida. He certainly isn't going to be available if they come knocking at his northern house at whatever hour during January.
And I know gun stores that shut down completely during deer season for two weeks, and home based dealers like myself that take vacations for a WHOLE WEEK!!!!

ATF understands that a business or a collector IS NOT BOUND TO KEEP THEIR HOURS as detailed on the Form 7.....but they do want to know a convenient time to contact you. If you don't put down a time or day then they'll show up when they feel like it.

If your snowbird collector friend ignores ATF requests for a compliance inspection then he has no one to blame but himself when he loses his license.

ATF is more than willing to work with any licensee, as I noted above ATF called me and let me set up a time and day for both of my inspections. The second inspection occurred three weeks after ATF called to see if I would be available the next day. I wasn't. So the IOI and I scheduled a mutually agreeable day and time.

Did the IOI have to agree with my schedule? No.
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Old March 1, 2018, 12:04 AM   #21
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Federal law requires ATF to develop the procedures, forms and regulations as required by the GCA, NFA, etc
Exactly. ATFE develops these policies, procedures, and forms. Federal law is not that detailed. The crux of your argument rests on many agents working out of many offices in many states all acting in the same way as a matter of coincidence instead of because they are receiving directives from agency leadership. You can call it procedures instead of policies if you like. It is ridiculous. Federal law doesn't give a time-frame in which one must report to the local ATFE office. They could demand you drive there immediately. They don't.
ATFE could change their policy/procedure to a stricter following of federal law. They might be able to reject applications in which the hours are left blank. It doesn't change the fact that they are not currently.

I don't think you have an argument. There is nothing in it for me to convince you. You are an anonymous person on the internet. I feel content in my position as presented to any third party who reads this thread.
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Old March 1, 2018, 12:26 PM   #22
dogtown tom
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Quote:
johnwilliamson062
Quote:
Quote:
Federal law requires ATF to develop the procedures, forms and regulations as required by the GCA, NFA, etc
Exactly. ATFE develops these policies, procedures, and forms. Federal law is not that detailed.
Yet you believe "I bet their policy manuals are several NYC phone books."?





Quote:
The crux of your argument rests on many agents working out of many offices in many states all acting in the same way as a matter of coincidence instead of because they are receiving directives from agency leadership.
I didn't say anything of the sort. You keep posting nonsense, I refute with what the actual regulations are, and then you rebut with a straw man argument.

ATF has regulations and Federal law to follow. If an individual IOI doesn't follow those regulations that's a problem his supervisor needs to address. But it doesn't change what the regulation actually says does it?




Quote:
You can call it procedures instead of policies if you like. It is ridiculous.
No sir, what is ridiculous is you claiming "rules" that do not exist.




Quote:
Federal law doesn't give a time-frame in which one must report to the local ATFE office. They could demand you drive there immediately. They don't.
And again, I didn't say that. I posted the freaking regulation that you either didn't read or have chosen to create an alternate reality of what it means.
But the requirement remains that a licensee make his records available for inspection to ATF on request.



Quote:
ATFE could change their policy/procedure to a stricter following of federal law. They might be able to reject applications in which the hours are left blank. It doesn't change the fact that they are not currently.
How the heck do you know they don't?
How often do you talk to ATF?
Have you ever met an ATF IOI in person?
Is your entire knowledge of ATF licensing based on gossip?

Since you referred to them as an "agent" above I don't think you have any clue as to what I mean by "IOI".......because they sure as heck aren't an agent.




Quote:
I don't think you have an argument. There is nothing in it for me to convince you.
It's not really an argument when you know I'm correct, and I know you aren't.
You posted false information and got caught. It hurts, but you'll survive to post nonsense again I'm sure.



Quote:
You are an anonymous person on the internet. I feel content in my position as presented to any third party who reads this thread.
<-----Tom Hart, Plano, TX who has been an 01FFL for over nine years and an 03FFL for twelve years before that.

Any third party who reads this thread hopefully has the reading comprehension to see that while you may be content, you are most certainly ignorant of Federal firearms law.
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Old March 1, 2018, 03:55 PM   #23
noelf2
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Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stuart, VA
Posts: 2,473
Quote:
ALL applicants must answer Que 12 on the Application for a Federal Firearms License:https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/fo...31016/download
Note Question 12:
12. Hours of Operation and/or Availability of Business/Activity (please provide at least one hour in which you can be contacted by ATF personnel)
That question applies to every applicant. "Collecting" is an "activity" is it not?
On my last renewal, I put N/A for hours and I got my renewal without a hitch. Right or wrong, I still got it. YMMV
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Old March 3, 2018, 10:46 PM   #24
johnwilliamson062
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Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,995
Quote:
How the heck do you know they don't?
Bill of Rights has ten amendments. Some people think they are randomly ordered. I think they are in order of perceived importance. One comes before two. I belong to several offline firearms collectors organizations with some form of regular meetings and communication. I am a member at several online collectors forums. None require one to own a 03 to join, but it is common among the tens of thousands of members. There are a fair number in this forum. Quite a few C&Rs between all of them and not a peep about ATFE doing anything like showing up to someones house and demanding to be shown the C&R log immediately or having the person immediately go to the local ATFE office with the books. Stories like that tend to have legs in the firearm community.

Actually, I have spoken to an ATFE officer on this issue. Right in the middle of one of my license periods I needed to leave the US on short notice, was not certain what my communication capabilities would be, would not be able to return to US within any sort of reasonable time-frame(such as the snowbird can if necessary), etc. I was able to have a very cordial conversation with a very professional employee of the ATFE and work out what was necessary. I have no idea if they were an agent or not. I referred to them as agent and they did not correct me. For myself and most 03 FFLs the distinction is entirely irrelevant and is simply used to convey respect for their position. I will note for any considering a 03 FFL, I offered to send my log and was told they had no interest and to dispose of it. The experience significantly changed my feelings towards ATFE. The 'Agent' I spoke with could not have been more supportive or helpful.

If I was applying for a C&R tomorrow I would mark the hours box "N/A" and not think twice about it.
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Old March 4, 2018, 03:41 PM   #25
dogtown tom
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Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 3,062
Quote:
johnwilliamson062 .....I belong to several offline firearms collectors organizations with some form of regular meetings and communication. I am a member at several online collectors forums. None require one to own a 03 to join, but it is common among the tens of thousands of members. There are a fair number in this forum. Quite a few C&Rs between all of them and not a peep about ATFE doing anything like showing up to someones house and demanding to be shown the C&R log immediately or having the person immediately go to the local ATFE office with the books.
And where sir, did I say ATF actually did this to C&RFFL's? NO WHERE. Stop it. I'll repeat it again.........ATF REGULATIONS ALLOW THEM TO DO THAT. Whether an ATF IOI does it that way is entirely within his discretion. AND AGAIN, AS I POSTED ABOVE: "Refusal to allow inspection of your records is grounds for revocation of a collectors 03FFL. The collector can either allow ATF entry into their premises or meet at the local ATF office."
See anything about ATF "....demanding to be shown the C&R log immediately or having the person immediately go to the local ATFE office with the books"?
No, you don't.

What is stated in Federal law and ATF regulations is clear. (unless you don't bother reading it). Whether a ATF IOI makes it a practice to call ahead is only that......a practice and not at all prohibited by any ATF regulation.

Again, your assertion that "...ATFE must give a minimum of 24 hours notice before requiring inspection" is 100% horsehockey, absolutely false and without any shred of truth whatsoever. You claimed it a "rule" yet cannot post a source or citation.

What IS TRUE is the citations to ATF regulations that I posted. You have only posted gossip, rumor and unfounded dreams.

You are like the guy who says "police officers will never write you a speeding ticket for driving 5mph over the posted limit". While that may be his experience it most certainly isn't the law. The likelihood of getting pulled over driving 80mph in a 75mph zone is far different than driving 23mph in a school zone posted 20mph when kids are walking home from school. And it may be the same officer exercising his discretion.



Quote:
Stories like that tend to have legs in the firearm community.
You are absolutely right. "Stories" in the Law & Civil Rights subforum especially......which is why you should not post your imaginary rules where it will mislead others as to the actual regulations. That is the worst kind of story.
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