Using standards to guide training and practice for concealed carry

2damnold4this · February 6, 2019, 07:35 PM

Recently, I was guided to these five tests of pistol standards (link) by reading Ellifritz's blog and thought I would use them to test my skills and see where I needed more work. I will let you read the five tests at the link but the last one was a difficult one for me with my five shot J frame while the first four weren't bad.

The last test requires three shots at one 6"x11" target, a transition to another 6"X11" target a yard away to be shot three times with both targets being five yards away. The shooter is then required to reload. This must be accomplished drawing from concealment with a par time of seven seconds. My plan was to fire three shots at the first target and two at the second, load two rounds from a speed strip and shoot the last round. Then I would dump the cylinder and reload with a speed loader. With my S&W 342, I was able to make five good hits in good time but then I tried to load two more rounds from a speed strip in order to fire the last shot before the reload but completely flubbed it. While I made five good hits in good time, and made a good sixth hit, I was terribly slow getting the first and last reloads.

Passing the first four tests and failing the fifth showed me I need to work on my reloads. Does anyone else have some tests/standards that you have used to guide your practice or training?

jar · February 6, 2019, 08:20 PM

Don't try to load two, load 5 with a speed loader. Then once all targets scored do a full reload again. You may dump some unfired rounds but that is simply not an issue in a defense scenario.

Deal with the unspent rounds AFTER the targets have been addressed and you have a fully loaded handgun.

Using that technique you are left with both targets addressed, a full handgun and maybe one to four unspent rounds on the ground near your feet.

2damnold4this · February 6, 2019, 08:30 PM

That's good advice. I shouldn't have bothered trying to load an empty gun with only two rounds as it wouldn't be advisable in a real life situation. A full reload with a speed loader would have been best.

2damnold4this · February 8, 2019, 09:02 PM

I suppose these tests could also lead a person to technological fixes such as a six shot Kimber K6s or Colt Detective Special. An auto-loader with six or more shots could also make the fifth test in the link easier to pass.

For me, I'm gonna work on my reloads and perhaps the location on my body of my speedloader.

Has anyone else used tests like those linked in the OP to guide training or practice? Has anyone had tests like the ones in the OP lead them to change gear?

TunnelRat · February 8, 2019, 09:12 PM

I think benchmark tests like these help gauge progress. Also kudos to you for doing them with a 5 shot revolver. My guess is those suggested times are typically based on a semiauto, so if you can get close to par you're doing well.

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raimius · February 9, 2019, 07:43 PM

These seem like reasonable standards, although I have a couple debatable points with them.

1. How much are our averages skewed by contact distance shots? Grappling shots seem fairly common, when you review footage from Active Self Protection and others. If these are skewing averages, shots over 3-5yds are a bit more common than the average suggests. (AKA standard deviation matters)

2. The blog author commented that quick-draw may not be the most important skill, yet all of these standards are fairly dependent on having a reasonably quick presentation from concealment. Time-based standards of under a few seconds, with a draw from concealment tend to place significant value on a fast presentation. This is not necessarily bad, but does it help gauge our training against what our data and experience suggests are the most likely problems?

2damnold4this · February 10, 2019, 08:29 AM

Those are some good points from all of you.

TunnelRat, I do think the tests were meant for a person using a firearm with a capacity of at least six rounds and autoladers are certainly easier to reload quickly.

raimus, you have good points on the distances and emphasis on quick draw. Perhaps some testing from longer distances and firing from the low ready would be good.

Another issue is that the tests at the link don't have any way to measure decision making such as shoot or no shoot targets. I suppose it could be fairly argued that the tests weren't intended to measure decision making but only to evaluate basic marksmanship skills the author thinks are most important for a concealed carrier.

These tests did let me know an area where I might need work. I need a better plan for a reload and to practice it.

Are there any tests or standards that you guys use to guide your practice or training? It could be a post qualification, a course of fire in a competition or something else.

Nanuk · February 10, 2019, 09:15 AM

Is there a local IDPA club? Just go and run your J frame. Talk about practice.

TunnelRat · February 10, 2019, 09:17 AM

There are loads of good drills out there. Here's a link that has a number of them (from the site that used to be managed by the late Todd Green). https://pistol-training.com/drills

One of my favorite warm up drills is the One Hole Drill. At 10 ft or so pick a spot on a target and fire one round. The impact hole now becomes your point of aim. Fire another four rounds or so. You should end up with all rounds touching and ideally one ragged hole. It's a good way to build marksmanship. https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/the-one-hole-drill/. This is also a good drill to combine with the Wall Drill. https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/sus...andgun-skills/

I also find Vickers' The Test to be a good measure of a shooter's ability to deliver controlled successive shots, but again not something easy with a revolver. https://www.ammoland.com/2016/01/lar...raining-drill/

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jar · February 10, 2019, 10:08 AM

Talking standards and practice for a moment.

When I practice with my current carry gun(s) I try to set certain standards. With my revolvers there are two reload drills. One is the empty-reload; where I shoot until empty then do a blind reload, eyes down range and not looking at the revolver but revolver first up, then down. The goal is maximum effect while staying aware of the threats real and potential. The second drill is the "pause" drill. It is similar but assumes that there is a break in the action. In this drill I dump whatever is in the cylinder including unspent rounds and reload. The goal here is again to keep my attention on the threat area while making sure I do have as many rounds as possible should action resume.

The semiautomatics have slight different steps. With a semi (the 380s I most often carry) it is to shoot a set of three double taps and then drop the mag. Again eyes down range, blind reload. Here the goal is to not just be aware of the threat area but also have at least one in the chamber while doing the reload. If I start with 7 rounds (6 + 1) a set of three double taps leaves me with one in chamber and an empty magazine.

When I will be carrying the Sig P230 or Sig P290RS the drill above gets varied. With the P230 I start with 7+1 so I either do a set of four double taps or if there is a pause a set of three double taps and drop the mag with one round remaining in the mag and one in the chamber and do a blind reload.

The P290RS is an outlier again and has either 6 or 8 round magazines. That can be a real problem in reality so I have at least two of each versions and carry only one version at a time. That means that if I have to actually use it I will have only one drill to remember.

FireForged · February 10, 2019, 07:26 PM

I wouldn't put narrow parameters on what you "think" your gunfight is going to be like as you will probably be wrong. Stats have their place is basic planning but you seem to be basing your whole basket on someone eles idea of "standards".

Sure, you need to be able to get shots on target during a fast moving crisis. That is going to take having your head on straight, having substantial mental grit and resolve to get things done. You need to be able to control your gun to the degree that you land hits on your target. It doesn't have to be pretty and being an elite marksman does not mean you will win. Hits on target?..yes. Impressively ordered hits on target?.. not so much. Winning has to do with a lot of things .. skill, resolve, tactics, strategics, position, initiative, timing and happenstance.

If I were you, I would select 1 gun that I know I will carry and one that I am currently the most proficient with and I would invest myself in that platform. I would not worry about what I can or cant do with a j frame. There is nothing wrong with a snub revolver and I do own a couple of them but how practical are they given the availability of all sorts of similar sized guns if you have already decided that you are lacking in proficiency regarding that weapon type. I would select a gun, get involved in some force on force training and allow real (person vs person) scenarios mold my idea of what a gunfight involves. Maybe its 3 yards .. maybe its 13 yards .. maybe I reload or maybe I only need 1 shot. The bottom line is that training with a real training adversary will offer a lot of realistic insight that competition does not.

On speed.. I would say that nobody wants to be slow and nobody is trying to be slower on the draw but I am not really inclined to believe that speed of draw is going to determine the victor in many current day gunfights. I have never tried to be fast, I simply try to be fluid and efficient in my movements. I allow " my-speed" to be a byproduct of minimalistic mechanics and practice. I don't measure it.. it is what it is. I am as fast as I am and I don't put a timer on it, I think that is a mistake.

2damnold4this · February 11, 2019, 08:03 AM

I don't see the author of the link trying to predict what a future gunfight might be like and I am certainly not trying to do so. It also be the case that someone who can easily pass the tests at the link is killed in a future gunfight while someone who can't pass any of the five tests survives. What I see the author at the link attempting to do is to establish a baseline for skills that are most likely to be needed in a self defense situation that requires shooting. I don't think these tests are designed to improve skills but to identify areas that need improvement. The tests certainly aren't a guarantee of success but rather a tool to identify areas that might need work.

T. O'Heir · February 11, 2019, 01:33 PM

"...there are tones of..." What do you suppose that means? Their editor needs to be fired.
If you can hit a 6"x11" target at the fabled 7 yards, you're good. Remember that CCW is not about combat. If you're in a situation where a reload is required or there are multiple assailants you've made a tactical error and are in way over your head.
One needs to keep in mind that military use of hand guns is done by MP's(extremely rarely) plus guys who have made serious tactical errors and have lost or let their rifle go empty. The military is only interested in shooting until the other guy stops being a threat too. Shooting to kill isn't necessarily the goal.
IPSC and IDPA are shooting games and are in no way practice for anything. So a target 'A' zone is irrelevant.

TunnelRat · February 11, 2019, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

"...there are tones of..." What do you suppose that means? Their editor needs to be fired.
If you can hit a 6"x11" target at the fabled 7 yards, you're good. Remember that CCW is not about combat. If you're in a situation where a reload is required or there are multiple assailants you've made a tactical error and are in way over your head.
One needs to keep in mind that military use of hand guns is done by MP's(extremely rarely) plus guys who have made serious tactical errors and have lost or let their rifle go empty. The military is only interested in shooting until the other guy stops being a threat too. Shooting to kill isn't necessarily the goal.
IPSC and IDPA are shooting games and are in no way practice for anything. So a target 'A' zone is irrelevant.

I'll remember to tell people if they attack me to only do so one at a time and to only fire X number of rounds just to keep it fair.

Obviously there are decisions that can be made to mitigate the amount of risk you face. But you don't always get a choice in all factors. Often criminals do work in groups, specifically because it does give them an advantage.

As for IDPA and IPSC, there's a video out there between Ian of Forgotten Weapons and Ken Hackathorn on the origins of those https://youtu.be/Q9B9FxNVXN8. The notion that there is nothing in those events of any value is to me overly simplistic.

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FireForged · February 11, 2019, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Remember that CCW is not about combat. If you're in a situation where a reload is required or there are multiple assailants you've made a tactical error and are in way over your head.

There is so much wrong with that statement I will simply assume that it was offered as sarcasm.

Quote:

As for IDPA and IPSC, there's a video out there between Ian of Forgotten Weapons and Ken Hackathorn on the origins of those https://youtu.be/Q9B9FxNVXN8. The notion that there is nothing in those events of any value is to me overly simplistic

I agree that it wouldn't be altogether honest to suggest that gun-games offer nothing of value ( I think it does) but at the same time, its not combat training, its training for more gun games. I am simply a proponent of training within the proper context which includes proper tactics, strategics and mindset. I don't think you can have those things to a level that is acceptable to me when you put tasks on a timer and have no realistic acknowledgement regarding the danger that potential targets(badguys) pose in real life.

2damnold4this · February 11, 2019, 06:17 PM

Here is a pdf link to another set of standards which are on page 3 of the link. This set of standards by Paul Howe features shots from longer distances and less emphasis on drawing.

TunnelRat · February 11, 2019, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireForged

There is so much wrong with that statement I will simply assume that it was offered as sarcasm.

I agree that it wouldn't be altogether honest to suggest that gun-games offer nothing of value ( I think it does) but at the same time, its not combat training, its training for more gun games. I am simply a proponent of training within the proper context which includes proper tactics, strategics and mindset. I don't think you can have those things to a level that is acceptable to me when you put tasks on a timer and have no realistic acknowledgement regarding the danger that potential targets(badguys) pose in real life.

I don't personally have an issue with putting tasks on a timer. Even in the real world there is a timer of sorts. Is speed penultimate? I don't think so no, and in fact some of the better "gunfighters" in history were neither overly fast nor overly accurate. Their ability to react judiciously and remain collected was more important. I do think timers can help monitor progress for certain gun handling abilities. To me it's less about how you did versus everyone else and more how you are doing for yourself.

As someone that has done 20+ training events and day long force on force with UTM I will say I have absolutely noticed training "scars" from IDPA and the like. Those mainly include the improper use of cover at the expense of speed, as many IDPA events don't penalize you for barely using the cover, as well as having trouble working through an area where there hasn't been a walkthrough nor was there a range officer to guide the person through the stage. I say this as someone whose involvement in IDPA consists of helping conduct events, but not competing myself because of what I thought were artificial limitations.

My point is that if someone has access to IDPA or the like through a range membership but perhaps not access to good defensive training there is something to be gained from competition. Of course the type of competition and the rules have an impact on the usefulness. I don't consider competition a substitute for training, but I have also seen firsthand people in training events who were "held back" by their lack of gun handling ability. These folks spent a lot of the days doing their best but missing out on what I saw as the finer points of certain lessons (which is admittedly subjective). I don't doubt these people still took something away that was valuable, I just think more practice beforehand would have yielded dividends. If competition motivates someone to practice then I'm for it, while acknowledging that it isn't necessary for one to compete to practice.

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flyboy015 · March 4, 2019, 01:27 PM

OP, not a bad set...I carry and train avidly with an autoloader in 9mm...typically 6 + 1.

I bought a shot timer some many months ago, and can tell you I honestly enjoy using it. A quick and clean draw is one of my areas of focus, certainly.

I have a toddler and a 5 month-old...when we're out and about anywhere, I'm usually carrying one of them, and my autoloader. One thing I've recently added to my regimen is drawing from concealment and firing two shots, strong hand only. I haven't added the timer to this yet...but I can not see myself safely escaping a threat / altercation with a 30 lb sack of potatoes in my arms on a bad day, and 12-lb baby girl on slightly less bad day, so I practice it- usually with an awkward twist/step to move said sack of potatoes behind my torso and away from the hypothetical threat. Personally, I think any parent should add this to their 'standards'.

Another standard I use is a simple drill I refer to as "Shoot or clear". Mix some snap-caps in with your target ammunition, every time you shoot. My theory is that my Walther will never have a light primer strike with defensive rounds - I carry with Hornady Critical Defen$e...but in the case my sidearm doesn't go BANG...it won't be completely foreign to me, and in the heat of the moment, hopefully at least somewhat instinctual/reflexive.

You should look up the FBI qualification run. It's easy enough that you could do it with your revolver with relative ease- except for maybe the last portion, which IIRC is 5 or 7 shots at 25 yards in 20 seconds? I could be butchering those numbers. But I've heard an excellent trainer opining that if you can pass the FBI qual, and have a photo of yourself next to your passing target, your carry gun displayed, it may be beneficial if/when you are in a courtroom...being able to say you train to the same standard that FBI agents do. That said, I have yet to buy/print the mammoth target.

February 6, 2019, 07:35 PM	#1
2damnold4this Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2009 Location: Athens, Georgia Posts: 2,526	Using standards to guide training and practice for concealed carry Recently, I was guided to these five tests of pistol standards (link) by reading Ellifritz's blog and thought I would use them to test my skills and see where I needed more work. I will let you read the five tests at the link but the last one was a difficult one for me with my five shot J frame while the first four weren't bad. The last test requires three shots at one 6"x11" target, a transition to another 6"X11" target a yard away to be shot three times with both targets being five yards away. The shooter is then required to reload. This must be accomplished drawing from concealment with a par time of seven seconds. My plan was to fire three shots at the first target and two at the second, load two rounds from a speed strip and shoot the last round. Then I would dump the cylinder and reload with a speed loader. With my S&W 342, I was able to make five good hits in good time but then I tried to load two more rounds from a speed strip in order to fire the last shot before the reload but completely flubbed it. While I made five good hits in good time, and made a good sixth hit, I was terribly slow getting the first and last reloads. Passing the first four tests and failing the fifth showed me I need to work on my reloads. Does anyone else have some tests/standards that you have used to guide your practice or training?

February 6, 2019, 08:20 PM	#2
jar Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2001 Location: Deep South Texas Posts: 1,668	Don't try to load two, load 5 with a speed loader. Then once all targets scored do a full reload again. You may dump some unfired rounds but that is simply not an issue in a defense scenario. Deal with the unspent rounds AFTER the targets have been addressed and you have a fully loaded handgun. Using that technique you are left with both targets addressed, a full handgun and maybe one to four unspent rounds on the ground near your feet. __________________ To be vintage it's gotta be older than me!

February 10, 2019, 09:15 AM	#8
Nanuk Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2005 Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam. Posts: 3,082	Is there a local IDPA club? Just go and run your J frame. Talk about practice. __________________ Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

February 10, 2019, 10:08 AM	#10
jar Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2001 Location: Deep South Texas Posts: 1,668	Talking standards and practice for a moment. When I practice with my current carry gun(s) I try to set certain standards. With my revolvers there are two reload drills. One is the empty-reload; where I shoot until empty then do a blind reload, eyes down range and not looking at the revolver but revolver first up, then down. The goal is maximum effect while staying aware of the threats real and potential. The second drill is the "pause" drill. It is similar but assumes that there is a break in the action. In this drill I dump whatever is in the cylinder including unspent rounds and reload. The goal here is again to keep my attention on the threat area while making sure I do have as many rounds as possible should action resume. The semiautomatics have slight different steps. With a semi (the 380s I most often carry) it is to shoot a set of three double taps and then drop the mag. Again eyes down range, blind reload. Here the goal is to not just be aware of the threat area but also have at least one in the chamber while doing the reload. If I start with 7 rounds (6 + 1) a set of three double taps leaves me with one in chamber and an empty magazine. When I will be carrying the Sig P230 or Sig P290RS the drill above gets varied. With the P230 I start with 7+1 so I either do a set of four double taps or if there is a pause a set of three double taps and drop the mag with one round remaining in the mag and one in the chamber and do a blind reload. The P290RS is an outlier again and has either 6 or 8 round magazines. That can be a real problem in reality so I have at least two of each versions and carry only one version at a time. That means that if I have to actually use it I will have only one drill to remember. __________________ To be vintage it's gotta be older than me!

February 10, 2019, 07:26 PM	#11
FireForged Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 1999 Location: Rebel South USA Posts: 2,074	I wouldn't put narrow parameters on what you "think" your gunfight is going to be like as you will probably be wrong. Stats have their place is basic planning but you seem to be basing your whole basket on someone eles idea of "standards". Sure, you need to be able to get shots on target during a fast moving crisis. That is going to take having your head on straight, having substantial mental grit and resolve to get things done. You need to be able to control your gun to the degree that you land hits on your target. It doesn't have to be pretty and being an elite marksman does not mean you will win. Hits on target?..yes. Impressively ordered hits on target?.. not so much. Winning has to do with a lot of things .. skill, resolve, tactics, strategics, position, initiative, timing and happenstance. If I were you, I would select 1 gun that I know I will carry and one that I am currently the most proficient with and I would invest myself in that platform. I would not worry about what I can or cant do with a j frame. There is nothing wrong with a snub revolver and I do own a couple of them but how practical are they given the availability of all sorts of similar sized guns if you have already decided that you are lacking in proficiency regarding that weapon type. I would select a gun, get involved in some force on force training and allow real (person vs person) scenarios mold my idea of what a gunfight involves. Maybe its 3 yards .. maybe its 13 yards .. maybe I reload or maybe I only need 1 shot. The bottom line is that training with a real training adversary will offer a lot of realistic insight that competition does not. On speed.. I would say that nobody wants to be slow and nobody is trying to be slower on the draw but I am not really inclined to believe that speed of draw is going to determine the victor in many current day gunfights. I have never tried to be fast, I simply try to be fluid and efficient in my movements. I allow " my-speed" to be a byproduct of minimalistic mechanics and practice. I don't measure it.. it is what it is. I am as fast as I am and I don't put a timer on it, I think that is a mistake. __________________ Life is a web woven by necessity and chance... Last edited by FireForged; February 10, 2019 at 07:32 PM.

February 6, 2019, 08:30 PM	#3
2damnold4this Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2009 Location: Athens, Georgia Posts: 2,526	That's good advice. I shouldn't have bothered trying to load an empty gun with only two rounds as it wouldn't be advisable in a real life situation. A full reload with a speed loader would have been best.

February 8, 2019, 09:02 PM	#4
2damnold4this Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2009 Location: Athens, Georgia Posts: 2,526	I suppose these tests could also lead a person to technological fixes such as a six shot Kimber K6s or Colt Detective Special. An auto-loader with six or more shots could also make the fifth test in the link easier to pass. For me, I'm gonna work on my reloads and perhaps the location on my body of my speedloader. Has anyone else used tests like those linked in the OP to guide training or practice? Has anyone had tests like the ones in the OP lead them to change gear?

February 8, 2019, 09:12 PM	#5
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,215	I think benchmark tests like these help gauge progress. Also kudos to you for doing them with a 5 shot revolver. My guess is those suggested times are typically based on a semiauto, so if you can get close to par you're doing well. Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

February 9, 2019, 07:43 PM	#6
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	These seem like reasonable standards, although I have a couple debatable points with them. 1. How much are our averages skewed by contact distance shots? Grappling shots seem fairly common, when you review footage from Active Self Protection and others. If these are skewing averages, shots over 3-5yds are a bit more common than the average suggests. (AKA standard deviation matters) 2. The blog author commented that quick-draw may not be the most important skill, yet all of these standards are fairly dependent on having a reasonably quick presentation from concealment. Time-based standards of under a few seconds, with a draw from concealment tend to place significant value on a fast presentation. This is not necessarily bad, but does it help gauge our training against what our data and experience suggests are the most likely problems?

February 10, 2019, 08:29 AM	#7
2damnold4this Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2009 Location: Athens, Georgia Posts: 2,526	Those are some good points from all of you. TunnelRat, I do think the tests were meant for a person using a firearm with a capacity of at least six rounds and autoladers are certainly easier to reload quickly. raimus, you have good points on the distances and emphasis on quick draw. Perhaps some testing from longer distances and firing from the low ready would be good. Another issue is that the tests at the link don't have any way to measure decision making such as shoot or no shoot targets. I suppose it could be fairly argued that the tests weren't intended to measure decision making but only to evaluate basic marksmanship skills the author thinks are most important for a concealed carrier. These tests did let me know an area where I might need work. I need a better plan for a reload and to practice it. Are there any tests or standards that you guys use to guide your practice or training? It could be a post qualification, a course of fire in a competition or something else.

February 10, 2019, 09:17 AM	#9
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,215	There are loads of good drills out there. Here's a link that has a number of them (from the site that used to be managed by the late Todd Green). https://pistol-training.com/drills One of my favorite warm up drills is the One Hole Drill. At 10 ft or so pick a spot on a target and fire one round. The impact hole now becomes your point of aim. Fire another four rounds or so. You should end up with all rounds touching and ideally one ragged hole. It's a good way to build marksmanship. https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/the-one-hole-drill/. This is also a good drill to combine with the Wall Drill. https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/sus...andgun-skills/ I also find Vickers' The Test to be a good measure of a shooter's ability to deliver controlled successive shots, but again not something easy with a revolver. https://www.ammoland.com/2016/01/lar...raining-drill/ Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

February 11, 2019, 08:03 AM	#12
2damnold4this Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2009 Location: Athens, Georgia Posts: 2,526	I don't see the author of the link trying to predict what a future gunfight might be like and I am certainly not trying to do so. It also be the case that someone who can easily pass the tests at the link is killed in a future gunfight while someone who can't pass any of the five tests survives. What I see the author at the link attempting to do is to establish a baseline for skills that are most likely to be needed in a self defense situation that requires shooting. I don't think these tests are designed to improve skills but to identify areas that need improvement. The tests certainly aren't a guarantee of success but rather a tool to identify areas that might need work.

February 11, 2019, 01:33 PM	#13
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...there are tones of..." What do you suppose that means? Their editor needs to be fired. If you can hit a 6"x11" target at the fabled 7 yards, you're good. Remember that CCW is not about combat. If you're in a situation where a reload is required or there are multiple assailants you've made a tactical error and are in way over your head. One needs to keep in mind that military use of hand guns is done by MP's(extremely rarely) plus guys who have made serious tactical errors and have lost or let their rifle go empty. The military is only interested in shooting until the other guy stops being a threat too. Shooting to kill isn't necessarily the goal. IPSC and IDPA are shooting games and are in no way practice for anything. So a target 'A' zone is irrelevant. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

February 11, 2019, 06:17 PM	#16
2damnold4this Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2009 Location: Athens, Georgia Posts: 2,526	Here is a pdf link to another set of standards which are on page 3 of the link. This set of standards by Paul Howe features shots from longer distances and less emphasis on drawing.

March 4, 2019, 01:27 PM	#18
flyboy015 Member Join Date: June 2, 2016 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 77	OP, not a bad set...I carry and train avidly with an autoloader in 9mm...typically 6 + 1. I bought a shot timer some many months ago, and can tell you I honestly enjoy using it. A quick and clean draw is one of my areas of focus, certainly. I have a toddler and a 5 month-old...when we're out and about anywhere, I'm usually carrying one of them, and my autoloader. One thing I've recently added to my regimen is drawing from concealment and firing two shots, strong hand only. I haven't added the timer to this yet...but I can not see myself safely escaping a threat / altercation with a 30 lb sack of potatoes in my arms on a bad day, and 12-lb baby girl on slightly less bad day, so I practice it- usually with an awkward twist/step to move said sack of potatoes behind my torso and away from the hypothetical threat. Personally, I think any parent should add this to their 'standards'. Another standard I use is a simple drill I refer to as "Shoot or clear". Mix some snap-caps in with your target ammunition, every time you shoot. My theory is that my Walther will never have a light primer strike with defensive rounds - I carry with Hornady Critical Defen$e...but in the case my sidearm doesn't go BANG...it won't be completely foreign to me, and in the heat of the moment, hopefully at least somewhat instinctual/reflexive. You should look up the FBI qualification run. It's easy enough that you could do it with your revolver with relative ease- except for maybe the last portion, which IIRC is 5 or 7 shots at 25 yards in 20 seconds? I could be butchering those numbers. But I've heard an excellent trainer opining that if you can pass the FBI qual, and have a photo of yourself next to your passing target, your carry gun displayed, it may be beneficial if/when you are in a courtroom...being able to say you train to the same standard that FBI agents do. That said, I have yet to buy/print the mammoth target.