How do you react?

[jclayto]

first time, long time for this particular area of TFL.

There was a situation here today where a local waffle house was robbed. Two masked men entered waving guns and then proceeded to rob the individual customers before leaving. No one injured.

Here is my question. Say you are a customer carrying your ccw when an incident like this happens. As a CCW holder, what actions do you take? Do you grab your weapon and open fire to protect yourself and others in the restaurant? Do you delay for a few to try to feel out how the incident is going to unfold?

Me.. I see myself most likely un-holstering my weapon and keeping it out of sight ready for immediate use if necessary. I think presenting at this point may make me an instant target but I would love to hear your ideas.

[David Armstrong]

Sit there calmly and quietly, let the BGs finish their business, then finish your waffles and wait for the police to come. Then give the police what information you can. No sense in turning a robbery into a gunfight without some compelling reasons, IMO.

[redhart]

what David said+1

[JasonG]

The less than $100 in my wallet isn't worth a life. Be ready but stay cool and try to get a good description of the BGs.

[Ohio Rusty]

I carry a fake wallet just for that purpose. It has fake bills that look real (play money), and I filled it with those fake credit cards your get in the mail all the time with your 'pre-approved' advertisements. If someone wants my wallet, I'll be happy to give them that one. One quick look and they will think they are getting the real thing. They aren't going to rifle thru the wallet or inspect the contents during a robbery as they are nervous and just want to leave with their plunder.

If they already have their guns out and their nervous fingers on the triggers, I don't think I can out draw and out gun several armed robbers in that situation. The last thing I want to do is create a hostage situation. The best thing I can do is be the best witness I can by getting descriptions of people, cars, direction of travel, etc.
Ohio Rusty ><>

[Keltyke]

Sit there calmly and quietly, let the BGs finish their business, then finish your waffles and wait for the police to come.

Maybe...

SC here, too. In SC, you may only draw and shoot if you are in fear of your life or great bodily injury. You are not a LEO, and your job is NOT to prevent robberies. Your job is to protect your life. You may also draw and shoot if you believe the victim (or any other reasonable person) would do the same in those circumstances. That's a fine line, and if the victim is a devout "anti" you may find yourself hung out to dry. "I'd NEVER use a gun." You're up for murder 2 then.

Now, in a robbery where the BGs have drawn weapons, I believe it is reasonable to assume you may be killed, especially if a gun is pointed at you, "Give me your money or I'll pop one in your a$$." So, if you can get the drop on them, go for it. Watch your backdrop and for gawd's sake, don't hit an innocent. Keep in mind that, once you draw, it's all or nothing. You kill or be killed.

Would I have drawn and shot in that specific situation? I don't know, I wasn't there.

[KLRANGL]

I really think it comes down to the situation... I mean, you got plenty of stories of this happening and no one getting hurt... But then you hear of a Liquor store getting robbed with the one customer getting shot and killed (just because he was there), and the old lady behind the counter getting shot and almost killed... So what do you do? Without being in that situation I guess you just dont know... You never want to kill unless you have to, but as the saying goes: the dead only know one thing... it is better to be alive...
I'd imagine I wouldnt pull unless I saw an immediate threat... Or if my instincts told me bad things were about to happen and I was in the position to end it there, I suppose I would then too... But until it happens you can never say for sure...

[TheNatureBoy]

I agree with David Armstrong. No need to make a bad situation worse if you don't have too.

[SGT-MILLER]

Never start a gunfight over something as paltry as money.

If the robbers starting lining people up on the ground, and saying things like "no witnesses", then it's a different story.

I would give them the money they want, and would try to be the best witness as possible for the police.

[Creature]

It doesnt take very much for a couple of guys already waving guns around during a robbery to start shooting...

Me, I guess I would sit tight and adjust my response to suit the situation as it progresses.

[Recon7]

SGT-MILLER, I never cared for that argument. I think it is being disingenuous. You don't shoot somebody over money, you shoot a person if they are representing a realistic threat to your life or the life of an innocent.

Sometimes you hear stories of a police officer shooting somebody for a minor infraction. Nonsense, the person was caught for a minor infraction and escalated the situation to where the police officer had to shoot.

It is on the judgment of the Armed citizen in the waffle house to determine whether he thinks the armed robbers were likely to shoot somebody. Armed robberies go wrong all the time and I suspect often without warning. Sometimes there is no right answer. One thing to consider is the 2 gunmen may have a "tail gunner" who is either at another table around the corner or in a car with the engine running. Stay Alert Stay Alive.

[SGT-MILLER]

Exactly what I said in my previous post.....................

You do not shoot someone over a robbery unless it escalates to the point where you feel your live or another's life is in danger.

If you try to engage right away without first studying the situation, you can get yourself killed, and other killed.

Just like in Iraq, not every situation requires guns blazing.

[BikerRN]

Sit there calmly and quietly, let the BGs finish their business, then finish your waffles and wait for the police to come. Then give the police what information you can. No sense in turning a robbery into a gunfight without some compelling reasons, IMO.

I couldn't have said it better.

If the Bad Guys start shooting people then that's a pretty compelling reason. I just hope I'm not one of those shot in the first round of shots fired by the Bad Guys.

Biker

[Hook686]

... There was a situation here today where a local waffle house was robbed. Two masked men entered waving guns and then proceeded to rob the individual customers before leaving. No one injured. ....

and if these robbers discover your firearm while robbing the individual customers ... then where are you ?

[SGT-MILLER]

Depends.

There's too many "ifs" in the scenario.

Are they just asking for wallets, or are they searching everybody?

What are they armed with?

Do they have backup?

Does one of them have a thermonuclear hand grenade?

Does any of them have herpes?

After thinking about this scenario for awhile, I now cannot say for sure what I would do, because without being there, I can't see all the variables.

[easyG]

I would probably draw and shoot them.
Not only would I save alot of folks their hard earned money, I would be doing society a favor as well.

[Tuckahoe]

I would not shoot someone over the stores money. Threaten my kids or my wife and I will shoot you until you are no longer a threat. A waffle house is an early morning/late night scene for all kinds of people and a likely scene for trouble. I simply avoid them.

[Sparks2112]

Being a pretty common frequenter of late night/early morning Waffle Houses I can honestly say I've put some thought into this in the past.

I don't think it's safe to assume there's any such thing as a "good" robbery. If somebody brings a gun for something like that don't you have to assume they're going to use it? (I would assume they would)

I think (but who knows really) I'd try and perform as stealthy a draw as possible, shoot perp #1 3-4 times COM close range once they approach my location, then shift aim/fire to perp #2, wash rinse repeat, as needed.

Location of bystanders relative to BG's and my own location obviously would effect this. I am almost certain though I'd wait until the 1st was too close to miss. I don't know many people who could take 3-4 230gr DT GD's in the chest without rethinking their position on armed robbery, and I'd like to take the 1st one out of the fight ASAP.

[jclayto]

Thanks for all of the great responses, you guys have basically said what I was thinking anyway.. although I didn't want to sound soft etc.. The last thing in the world I want to do is get into a gun fight, the stores money, other peoples money or my money is not worth it. I guess you just have to feel it out and see if you truly feel your life is in danger. I guess without ever being in that situation, it is hard to consider when you think the line has been crossed from robbery to bent on murdering someone. I really enjoy reading this section, thanks for the great information!

[besafe2]

The sad thing all of the Waffle Houses around here have those signs posted "no weapons allowed on premises" so if you are armed you've broken the law. When I was an leo(many years ago) not many nights went by that we didn't get a call to the local Waffle House. So like some one else said I also do not go there.

[Keltyke]

I guess you just have to feel it out and see if you truly feel your life is in danger.

Like our CWP Instructor told us, "If someone has a gun drawn, you must assume they intend to use it. Act accordingly."

[Keltyke]

have those signs posted "no weapons allowed on premises" so if you are armed you've broken the law.

Some in SC have those and some of those aren't legally posted.

[mvpel]

Sit there calmly and quietly, let the BGs finish their business, then finish your waffles and wait for the police to come. Then give the police what information you can. No sense in turning a robbery into a gunfight without some compelling reasons, IMO.

When robbers come in waving guns in people's faces, it's ALREADY a gunfight. Just because they haven't shot anyone yet doesn't mean the "fight" hasn't started.

[Sparks2112]

The sad thing all of the Waffle Houses around here have those signs posted "no weapons allowed on premises" so if you are armed you've broken the law. When I was an leo(many years ago) not many nights went by that we didn't get a call to the local Waffle House. So like some one else said I also do not go there.

Funny, none of the ones around here are posted. ::Shrug::

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The principle is very simple:

Take an action that you think will miminize the risk of grievous bodily harm to those you care about who might be at risk to grievous bodily harm.

-- There is no automatic response in this scenario's time scale.

Also, I might suggest, if one can afford it, some realistic FOF training such that you have some experience with how various actions can go well or awry.