Self Defense article - Page 3

Glenn E. Meyer · September 5, 2007, 01:36 PM

Justme, so no one on the planet could disarm you reliably? I would take that with a grain of salt.

Besides, Keltecs have much diminished stopping power - why bother to carry it? One can carry a snubby of much greater power or a pocket nine. That gun gives you an unwarranted amount of confidence. A crazed sociopath would absorb rounds like that as if they were M&Ms. Tsk, Tsk!

Tanzer · September 5, 2007, 01:41 PM

Also, I've been to trainings that cost me a bundle. Good stuff, but the best (and simplest) technique I've ever learned to keep someone from grabbing your gun from your holster was shown to me in about five minutes from a corrections officer at my gun club. I practice that whenever I can.

pax · September 5, 2007, 01:44 PM

Glenn ~

pax

buzz_knox · September 5, 2007, 01:49 PM

I have a cousin who decided to take judo while in college. The instructor (at one time, nationally ranked) decided to cross the line while they were off campus. He propositioned her while she was on a date with her future husband.

It took several people to pull her off of him while she was in the process of breaking his arm for his . . . indiscretion.

A little bit of knowledge, combined with dedication and an understanding that one doesn't know everything is highly effective. A lot of knowledge and an arrogant belief in one's own superiority is highly ineffective.

divemedic · September 5, 2007, 03:07 PM

The real question IMO, is not whether or not the woamn CAN disarm the man at all, but whether she can do so without getting herself shot. I submit to ANYONE that learns a martial art that unrestricted, violent encounters against an assailant who is fighting you without warning and without any regard for your safety is much harder than taking on someone in a contrived situation in your Dojo while you are stretched, ready, and you know that all is safe.

Why do so many articles and "experts" recommend learning a questionable skill set when carrying a weapon is much more effective?

I think the skill CAN be learned, but not in a one day class. For too long the martial arts industry has peddled this tripe in an attempt to take your money. I don't care how much karate you know, an 80 pound child is not going to be able to overcome a 220 pound man, if that man has no mental restrictions about hurting said child.

Glenn E. Meyer · September 5, 2007, 03:19 PM

I think there is a difference between courses and courses. A realistic combatives course tries to teach an easy to remember set of techniques to disengage and get out of Dodge. They are not trying to impart an entire martial arts domain in a couple of days.

There are frauds in everything. However, my experience with the combatives course were that they were quite realistic as to expectations. Some simple tricks that were better than nothing.

I wonder how many posters actually train intensively with their firearms? Or just shoot a tin can at the range once in awhile.

pax · September 5, 2007, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Why do so many articles and "experts" recommend learning a questionable skill set when carrying a weapon is much more effective?

Apart from the political answers to that question (not gonna go there today, thanks), there are two solid answers I can think of right off the bat.

1) Who said it's either-or??? Police officers learn basic disarms and retentions in academy training. They also learn something called "defensive tactics," police jargon meaning unarmed defense skills. Why do they do that instead of carrying a weapon? Answer: they don't. They carry a weapon ... too.

2) In the real world, not in the fantasy world we'd all like to live in, carrying a firearm is not always legal and even where legal it is not always practically possible (as anyone who is honest with himself will admit). Given the choice between a super-effective but sometimes unavailable weapon and a less-effective weapon which will always be present, I'd take both. Wouldn't you?

Many reputable firearms trainers with a solid track record for teaching good material and avoiding twaddle do teach the basic disarms and retentions. And your local cops - who also carry guns - are trained to bet their lives on it when the chips are down and the gun is not a viable choice.

pax

Glenn E. Meyer · September 5, 2007, 03:53 PM

Carrying a weapon is neat - this is a gun list. However, learning a simple way to escape someone grabbing your arm is a complimentary skill.

For example, it could be the crazy lady in the laudramat (seen this) - hosing her with your Kel-tec 32 ACP might be frowned upon.

Justme · September 5, 2007, 07:44 PM

It's all about attitude. Nobody is going to reliably disarm me because I will not draw a weapon until I have made up my mind to use it. If the keltec comes out of the pocket bullets are going to fly, and hopefully some will hit their mark.

Go ahead, take your classes, practice in the basement by yourself in front of mirror, just don't think it is going to make one wits worth of difference in the real world.

The single most important thing we can teach anyone about self defense is to listen to their fear. Anything that is done to reduce that fear is by it's very nature dangerous. People have become too civilized to truely appreciate how important their instincts are, especially fear.

gyp_c2 · September 6, 2007, 12:52 AM

...geez...
Anyone heard the saying, Beware the man with one gun, he may just know how to use it...
If you learn only one technique, but have real kung-fu (time and work), you may be proficient with it...It's not an either-or, situation. Just another possible way...to survive

mikejonestkd · September 6, 2007, 06:39 AM

I was going to post something about self defense and women but it is obvious that we are already WAY over our limit of martial arts experts on this thread.

The use of 'NEVER ' and ' ALWAYS ' are good indicators of a person's real life experience in the MA and in SD situations....that's all I got to say about this topic.

Mas Ayoob · September 6, 2007, 07:01 AM

Pax, et. al., have it nailed.

Instead of "what if" speculation, let's look to documented fact. Pax is referring to Lindell-based techniques, which began more than 30 years ago at the Kansas City Regional Police Academy under Jim Lindell, head of defensive tactics training there at that time. Jim now runs the National Law Enforcement Training Center in KC.

With the broad national and international adoption of Lindell-based training by law enforcement, there has been a substantial volume of feedback "from the street." Officers trained for only a few hours, with no more than four hours annual refresher if that, have been "making it work" for three decades. It has been estimated that Lindell's disarming, and particularly his corollary handgun retention, methods have saved as many cops as concealed body armor.

Skeptics need to Google NLETC and Lindell and do a bit of research.

Justme · September 6, 2007, 07:30 AM

Are you suggesting that what works for a professional LEO would work for a young woman who has never been in a violent situation in her life?

Nice people have no idea just how brutal street violence gets, nor how quickly it gets that way. If someone has already pulled a firearm out there is a pretty good chance they are not averse to violence.

Teaching people how to escape and evade criminals is a good thing, teaching them to risk their life by trying to disarm someone with a gun is a bad thing.

Mas Ayoob · September 6, 2007, 07:51 AM

What I'm suggesting is that what works for LEOs who face violent criminals constantly tends to work for private citizens who face the same criminals less frequently.

Justme, are YOU suggesting that a lady in this situation try to outrun a bullet instead?

Justme · September 6, 2007, 08:04 AM

I am suggesting that people become more aware of their surroundings and recognize their fear as a good thing and pay attention to it. I am suggesting that when people are faced with an armed aggressor they should do everything in their power not to escalate the situation. And yes, I am suggesting that people who are not used to violent situations are ill equiped to deal with violence.

Finally, I think that young upper-middle class suburban woman have a totally misplaces sense of their own abilities. They have been brainwashed by the PC crowd to believe that they are up to any challenge, apparantly including believing that they could disarm a criminal if they just had a bit of training.

This is a foolish debate, I am done.

mikejonestkd · September 6, 2007, 08:04 AM

justme,

You do know who Mas Ayoob is, right?

Self defense is all about preparation and taking the proper steps to ensure survival. Sometimes it involves evasion/ escape and sometimes it involves close quarters conflict. Its all about increasing your odds of survival.

If a newbie rookie LEO can do it with minimal initial training and infrequent refresher courses then a normal citizen with the time and dedication can meet or exceed the same level of compentancy in a SD class or a MA school.

I have a bit of experience in the matter of MA SD and I can have young college girls dropping 200 pound guys in a hour of training, if they keep it up they can keep the skill, or even improve on it.

Just my .02 cents, not that you really needed ANOTHER MA ' expert ' opinion...LOL

Manedwolf · September 6, 2007, 08:05 AM

Quote:

justme,

You do know who Mas Ayoob is, right?

I strongly suspect he doesn't...

Justme · September 6, 2007, 08:09 AM

Yea, and the "real" mas ayoob is not using his real name on this forum. Jesus guys, think.

Lurper · September 6, 2007, 08:13 AM

Justme, that is the real Mas.

pax · September 6, 2007, 08:14 AM

G'morning, all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Massad Ayoob

Officers trained for only a few hours, with no more than four hours annual refresher if that, have been "making it work" for three decades. It has been estimated that Lindell's disarming, and particularly his corollary handgun retention, methods have saved as many cops as concealed body armor.

At the risk of stating the obvious, some of the cops Mas refers to here were females. Young, white, upper-middle class, suburban females, even.

pax

PS Justme ~ that is the real life Ayoob. No foolin'. Sometimes you meet the most surprising people online.

mikejonestkd · September 6, 2007, 08:14 AM

I am guessing that a mod will be along shortly to set the record straight....

Justme · September 6, 2007, 08:23 AM

Mas Ayoob, on post #52, on a forum for which he does not get paid? While he makes a living writing and posting elsewhere?

I think it possible that Ayoob would post here. I think it impossible that he would use his real name. Not least of all because his credibility is often challenged in court cases and he couldn't afford to risk something being taken out of context and used to impeach him.

Finally, I can think of no human being on the planet who cares less what I think than Mas Ayoob does.

pax · September 6, 2007, 08:26 AM

Justme ~

Those are all great arguments, especially the last one.

But like most every other argument you've made in this thread, they're wrong.

pax

buzz_knox · September 6, 2007, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Mas Ayoob, on post #52, on a forum for which he does not get paid? While he makes a living writing and posting elsewhere?

I think it possible that Ayoob would post here. I think it impossible that he would use his real name. Not least of all because his credibility is often challenged in court cases and he couldn't afford to risk something being taken out of context and used to impeach him.

Finally, I can think of no human being on the planet who cares less what I think than Mas Ayoob does.

Mas posts on a lot of forums, as do many other instructors who have been and will be experts. It's no different than a magazine article, which are often taken out of context any way. The key, though, is that these gentlemen and ladies are difficult to impeach because 1) they have the ability to explain the context and 2) what they say on the 'net is effectively the same thing as what they say in testimony and in their articles.

Manedwolf · September 6, 2007, 08:34 AM

Justme, hands away from the keyboard a moment, and THINK.

Do you really think the mods here would allow someone else to impersonate Massad Ayoob by having a username that suggests that it's him?

Think really hard about that. Take a few minutes.

And yeah, you do see people you've "heard about" on forums. Adam Baldwin (Jayne from Firefly) is on a few forums as himself, where he's argued with leftists and made them look pretty foolish. (one called him a "neanderthal")

...he's a staunch conservative and quite well-spoken as well.

September 5, 2007, 01:36 PM	#51
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Justme, so no one on the planet could disarm you reliably? I would take that with a grain of salt. Besides, Keltecs have much diminished stopping power - why bother to carry it? One can carry a snubby of much greater power or a pocket nine. That gun gives you an unwarranted amount of confidence. A crazed sociopath would absorb rounds like that as if they were M&Ms. Tsk, Tsk! __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

September 5, 2007, 01:44 PM	#53
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	Glenn ~ pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

September 5, 2007, 03:19 PM	#56
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	I think there is a difference between courses and courses. A realistic combatives course tries to teach an easy to remember set of techniques to disengage and get out of Dodge. They are not trying to impart an entire martial arts domain in a couple of days. There are frauds in everything. However, my experience with the combatives course were that they were quite realistic as to expectations. Some simple tricks that were better than nothing. I wonder how many posters actually train intensively with their firearms? Or just shoot a tin can at the range once in awhile. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

September 5, 2007, 03:53 PM	#58
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Carrying a weapon is neat - this is a gun list. However, learning a simple way to escape someone grabbing your arm is a complimentary skill. For example, it could be the crazy lady in the laudramat (seen this) - hosing her with your Kel-tec 32 ACP might be frowned upon. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

September 6, 2007, 12:52 AM	#60
gyp_c2 Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2000 Location: Colorado...Louisiana Posts: 387	well... ...geez... Anyone heard the saying, Beware the man with one gun, he may just know how to use it... If you learn only one technique, but have real kung-fu (time and work), you may be proficient with it...It's not an either-or, situation. Just another possible way...to survive __________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>g2<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< AVERT

September 5, 2007, 01:41 PM	#52
Tanzer Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2007 Posts: 884	Also, I've been to trainings that cost me a bundle. Good stuff, but the best (and simplest) technique I've ever learned to keep someone from grabbing your gun from your holster was shown to me in about five minutes from a corrections officer at my gun club. I practice that whenever I can. __________________ Only the ignorant find ignorance to be bliss. Only those of us who know better will suffer from it. Last edited by Tanzer; September 5, 2007 at 01:43 PM. Reason: Spelling/teenager interrupting me

September 5, 2007, 01:49 PM	#54
buzz_knox Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 1999 Location: Knoxville, in the Free State of Tennesse Posts: 4,190	I have a cousin who decided to take judo while in college. The instructor (at one time, nationally ranked) decided to cross the line while they were off campus. He propositioned her while she was on a date with her future husband. It took several people to pull her off of him while she was in the process of breaking his arm for his . . . indiscretion. A little bit of knowledge, combined with dedication and an understanding that one doesn't know everything is highly effective. A lot of knowledge and an arrogant belief in one's own superiority is highly ineffective.

September 5, 2007, 03:07 PM	#55
divemedic Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2006 Posts: 1,310	The real question IMO, is not whether or not the woamn CAN disarm the man at all, but whether she can do so without getting herself shot. I submit to ANYONE that learns a martial art that unrestricted, violent encounters against an assailant who is fighting you without warning and without any regard for your safety is much harder than taking on someone in a contrived situation in your Dojo while you are stretched, ready, and you know that all is safe. Why do so many articles and "experts" recommend learning a questionable skill set when carrying a weapon is much more effective? I think the skill CAN be learned, but not in a one day class. For too long the martial arts industry has peddled this tripe in an attempt to take your money. I don't care how much karate you know, an 80 pound child is not going to be able to overcome a 220 pound man, if that man has no mental restrictions about hurting said child.

September 5, 2007, 07:44 PM	#59
Justme Junior member Join Date: June 6, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,066	It's all about attitude. Nobody is going to reliably disarm me because I will not draw a weapon until I have made up my mind to use it. If the keltec comes out of the pocket bullets are going to fly, and hopefully some will hit their mark. Go ahead, take your classes, practice in the basement by yourself in front of mirror, just don't think it is going to make one wits worth of difference in the real world. The single most important thing we can teach anyone about self defense is to listen to their fear. Anything that is done to reduce that fear is by it's very nature dangerous. People have become too civilized to truely appreciate how important their instincts are, especially fear.

September 6, 2007, 06:39 AM	#61
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 3,716	I was going to post something about self defense and women but it is obvious that we are already WAY over our limit of martial arts experts on this thread. The use of 'NEVER ' and ' ALWAYS ' are good indicators of a person's real life experience in the MA and in SD situations....that's all I got to say about this topic. __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

September 6, 2007, 07:01 AM	#62
Mas Ayoob Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2005 Posts: 249	Pax, et. al., have it nailed. Instead of "what if" speculation, let's look to documented fact. Pax is referring to Lindell-based techniques, which began more than 30 years ago at the Kansas City Regional Police Academy under Jim Lindell, head of defensive tactics training there at that time. Jim now runs the National Law Enforcement Training Center in KC. With the broad national and international adoption of Lindell-based training by law enforcement, there has been a substantial volume of feedback "from the street." Officers trained for only a few hours, with no more than four hours annual refresher if that, have been "making it work" for three decades. It has been estimated that Lindell's disarming, and particularly his corollary handgun retention, methods have saved as many cops as concealed body armor. Skeptics need to Google NLETC and Lindell and do a bit of research.

September 6, 2007, 07:30 AM	#63
Justme Junior member Join Date: June 6, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,066	Are you suggesting that what works for a professional LEO would work for a young woman who has never been in a violent situation in her life? Nice people have no idea just how brutal street violence gets, nor how quickly it gets that way. If someone has already pulled a firearm out there is a pretty good chance they are not averse to violence. Teaching people how to escape and evade criminals is a good thing, teaching them to risk their life by trying to disarm someone with a gun is a bad thing.

September 6, 2007, 07:51 AM	#64
Mas Ayoob Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2005 Posts: 249	What I'm suggesting is that what works for LEOs who face violent criminals constantly tends to work for private citizens who face the same criminals less frequently. Justme, are YOU suggesting that a lady in this situation try to outrun a bullet instead?

September 6, 2007, 08:04 AM	#65
Justme Junior member Join Date: June 6, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,066	I am suggesting that people become more aware of their surroundings and recognize their fear as a good thing and pay attention to it. I am suggesting that when people are faced with an armed aggressor they should do everything in their power not to escalate the situation. And yes, I am suggesting that people who are not used to violent situations are ill equiped to deal with violence. Finally, I think that young upper-middle class suburban woman have a totally misplaces sense of their own abilities. They have been brainwashed by the PC crowd to believe that they are up to any challenge, apparantly including believing that they could disarm a criminal if they just had a bit of training. This is a foolish debate, I am done.

September 6, 2007, 08:09 AM	#68
Justme Junior member Join Date: June 6, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,066	Yea, and the "real" mas ayoob is not using his real name on this forum. Jesus guys, think.

September 6, 2007, 08:13 AM	#69
Lurper Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2006 Posts: 943	Justme, that is the real Mas.

September 6, 2007, 08:14 AM	#71
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 3,716	I am guessing that a mod will be along shortly to set the record straight.... __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth. Last edited by mikejonestkd; September 6, 2007 at 08:15 AM. Reason: too slow on the keyboard this morning...

September 6, 2007, 08:23 AM	#72
Justme Junior member Join Date: June 6, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,066	Mas Ayoob, on post #52, on a forum for which he does not get paid? While he makes a living writing and posting elsewhere? I think it possible that Ayoob would post here. I think it impossible that he would use his real name. Not least of all because his credibility is often challenged in court cases and he couldn't afford to risk something being taken out of context and used to impeach him. Finally, I can think of no human being on the planet who cares less what I think than Mas Ayoob does.

September 6, 2007, 08:26 AM	#73
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	Justme ~ Those are all great arguments, especially the last one. But like most every other argument you've made in this thread, they're wrong. pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

September 6, 2007, 08:34 AM	#75
Manedwolf Junior member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Posts: 3,266	Justme, hands away from the keyboard a moment, and THINK. Do you really think the mods here would allow someone else to impersonate Massad Ayoob by having a username that suggests that it's him? Think really hard about that. Take a few minutes. And yeah, you do see people you've "heard about" on forums. Adam Baldwin (Jayne from Firefly) is on a few forums as himself, where he's argued with leftists and made them look pretty foolish. (one called him a "neanderthal") ...he's a staunch conservative and quite well-spoken as well.