Wishlist of easy designs that no one is making

[RX-79G]

1. A DAO 5 shot .22 revolver using the NAA cylinder. Not a DA version of their classic looking revolver, but a thoroughly modern defense gun of absolute minimal dimensions and fast firing, even through a pocket.

2. A .25 auto with a modern safety/carry design as small as a Browning Baby. Everything else out there is or was taller and wider.

3. Combat pistols designed around double feed mags, as used in rifles, submachine guns and the Steyr GB. They are easier and faster to load and have a greater capacity for their size.

4. A stamped steel coated frame for a combat gun. This would minimize the grip size, even with the biggest .45 double column mags.

5. A combat auto built with an integral suppressor. Not only would this shorten the total length, but the suppressor could be integral to the function of the action, rather than causing problems.

6. A combat pistol that locates an Armson OEG type Binden site in the back of the slide. As fast and potentially accurate as a dot sight, but nothing sticking up out of the gun.

7. Frames made of micarta, acrylic impregnated wood or G10. Polymer framed guns prove that a pistol frame need not be under much stress. Why not make them out of something attractive and very individual?

8. A modern pistol built from the ground up to take advantage of the capacity and power of 9x23.

[DaleA]

Double feed mags...
Wouldn't you consider the Beretta the Army uses today to be a double feed magazine?

I looked up the Steyr GB and it is a very interesting pistol. The search led me to this site which has quite a bit of information I like. Thanks.

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/othe...guns/steyr-gb/

[9mmfan]

Originally Posted by DaleA

Double feed mags...
Wouldn't you consider the Beretta the Army uses today to be a double feed magazine?

They are double stack, but narrow at the top to feed from the center. On the rifles, at least on the AR pattern rifles, there are two feed ramps that will feed from either side of the magazine. You just mash the rounds straight in, as opposed to using the case head to press down on the top round then slide the round being loaded under the feed lips.

[Theohazard]

Interesting thread. Some of those things probably don't exist for a good reason, but it's always fascinating to think about new designs. And maybe some of those are designs we'll see someday. Here are two things that stood out to me:

Originally Posted by RX-79G

3. Combat pistols designed around double feed mags, as used in rifles, submachine guns and the Steyr GB. They are easier and faster to load and have a greater capacity for their size.

Wouldn't this make the handgun too wide? You'd either need a double-wide feed ramp or two separate feed ramps, and the slide would probably need to be widened to compensate.

Of course, now that I think about it, the FN Five seveN uses a double-feed mag. Though my guess is that this is made practical due to the fact that the 5.7 round is shaped like a bottlenecked rifle round, so the feed ramps can be smaller and narrower. But I'd be interested to hear from someone who has more experience with the Five seveN than I have.

Originally Posted by RX-79G

5. A combat auto built with an integral suppressor. Not only would this shorten the total length, but the suppressor could be integral to the function of the action, rather than causing problems.

I'm guessing the reason this hasn't been done before (to the best of my knowledge) is that it would require a complete re-design of the standard modern semi-auto design. All the integrally-suppressed pistols I've ever seen were .22s. A decent .22 suppressor only needs to be about an inch wide to work well, and because the barrel is fixed and the slide doesn't cover the barrel, it doesn't interfere with the action at all.

But a good modern wipe-less 9mm suppressor is usually over 1.25" thick. So you'd have to design the slide to fit around it but still maintain enough slide weight to have the gun function, which seems to me like it would add too much width and make the gun too bulky. Though I suppose you could use a different locking mechanism that required a much lighter slide, but the only mechanism I can think of that would accomplish that is gas-delayed blowback, which tends to be noticeably louder when suppressed; every account I've read or heard says the P7 is louder than most other 9mms when suppressed. But the P7 still has a relatively normal-sized slide; in order to get the slide small enough to not interfere with an integral suppressor you'd probably have to bleed off even more gas to properly delay the blowback. But I'm getting a little too deep into the subject of non-standard handgun locking mechanisms, which is a subject I admittedly don't know a whole lot about.

I never personally used silenced firearms in the military, but from my understanding a silenced pistol is normally deployed as an offensive weapon. In that case, having to attach the silencer ahead of time isn't as much of an issue and having it still be compact with a silencer isn't as much of an advantage. Also, modern silencers have recoil boosters to allow them to function on barrels with the Browning modified locked-breech design, so reliability with a detachable silencer is not really an issue for the most part.

It seems to me that the design constraints of an integrally-suppressed center-fire pistol make it impractical to build. But I'm certainly no firearm design expert, so I'd be interested to see what other say about it.

[RJay]

Define Combat Pistols? If you mean by combat, a military issue firearm. why would a military firearm need a suppressor? A hand arm plays such a small part of combat, I really don't understand any need for a double feed system. If by Combat Pistols you mean something that looks cool that you can play with at the range, sure, why not. How about two 1911 systems melted together with two magazines. Double your pleasure, double your fun, kill twice as many ninjas, with only one gun.

[johnwilliamson062]

1. A DAO 5 shot .22 revolver using the NAA cylinder. Not a DA version of their classic looking revolver, but a thoroughly modern defense gun of absolute minimal dimensions and fast firing, even through a pocket.

I was thinking about this a few days ago after I handled an RG .22 Seems odd there isn't a similar sized .22 of higher quality.

2. A .25 auto with a modern safety/carry design as small as a Browning Baby. Everything else out there is or was taller and wider.

Everything keeps getting bigger in a smaller package. With how many small 380s, the Seacamp 32, etc., I doubt there is much of a market for a 25 ACP.

3. Combat pistols designed around double feed mags, as used in rifles, submachine guns and the Steyr GB. They are easier and faster to load and have a greater capacity for their size.

I dont see how this works through the grip. Maybe pistol grip bullpup type hybrid something something. Or an AR/AK type pistol...

5. A combat auto built with an integral suppressor. Not only would this shorten the total length, but the suppressor could be integral to the function of the action, rather than causing problems.

I believe there are several custom makers who fill this niche, although not gns designed from ground up or exactly integral, but not just hung off the end. I don't think there is a larger market. There are a lot of fixed barrel semi-auto pistols and you can build a suppressor around the gun on them pretty easily. Barrel out past the slide then drop a chamber down where people usually hang a flashlight/laser.

I didn;t ignore the others b/c I didnt think they were worth discussing, I simply don't know much about them.

[SHE3PDOG]

How about two 1911 systems melted together with two magazines. Double your pleasure, double your fun, kill twice as many ninjas, with only one gun.

I can't imagine that being very comfortable to shoot, but I'd like to see one anyways just for the intrigue factor.

On a side note, I'm not real sure about the other services, but we use silencers in order to take out unexpected targets like dangerous animals, lights, and other random stuff that may compromise a mission while the element of surprise is still necessary.

I'm sure special purpose units use them for other cool stuff, but this has been my experience. I could potentially see an integrally supressed pistol being useful here as it would remain silent and keep the rifle uninhibited by extra length.

I'm sure it is possible, but I'm just not sure it is possible within the confines of our current handgun engineering box which has remained largely unchanged for many years. New ideas like that would require a lot of money for development for a very tiny market, so I'm betting we will never see one in mass production.

The double feed ramps is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how it would work without making the gun way fatter or the round way smaller. The 5.7 kind of does a little of both, so I'm not sure something even as small as 9mm would be reasonable for this.

[RJay]

Odd that , 27 years in the service, two trips to RVN, 1 trip to a small Island called Granada ( I think that is the way it is spelled , don't even care ) I observed no line combat troops with suppressors, only a couple of snake eaters and a couple of CIA types that we dropped off on a B-52 mission. In a regular combat unit why would you want to use a suppressor to quite a dog, hell, we used M-60's and One guy used a Ma Duce on a water buff.. ( We also had a pilot used 3.75 FFAR on a village chiefs white elephant while the village chief was on his back ) Don't need no stinking suppressor, in combat there is very little reason to kill someone quietly. Heck, we made a lot of noise, we wanted them to know we where coming to play, besides there is no way you can drop a entire battalion on a drop zone with out every one knowing it ( including reporters from ever major news source).. No. there are a few special applications for a suppressor, maybe .00000001 percent of all the combat missions. As for the 45's melted together, already been done , one grip frame, two slides. Of course the sand box may be difference, that area is out side the realm of my experience, and of course the Junior services may do things differenly ( Navy. Marine Corp Coast Guard and AF )

[Theohazard]

RJay, the main reason for suppressors in combat isn't stealth, it's facilitating communication. Squad or platoon level command and control isn't easy when there are 240s, SAWs, and M16s firing at full volume all around you.

Special operations are using them more and more these days as the technology makes silencers more durable and therefore more practical for military use. But your average soldier or Marine doesn't use them simply because their utility doesn't justify their cost.

[SHE3PDOG]

It is a new-ish thing for the line units. A few units were experimenting with it a while back, and apparently had success with it because it has caught on in the last year or two.

I agree with Theohazard for the most part though, special purpose units that can have everyone on the team use a silencer are ideal, but your average unit isn't going to have them mass issued. They just have a few here and there for special purposes like I mentioned earlier.

I'm also not suggesting their usefulness to a larger unit during a firefight per se, but en route to an objective there is no reason to not be as quiet as possible.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by SHE3PDOG

It is a new-ish thing for the line units. A few units were experimenting with it a while back, and apparently had success with it because it has caught on in the last year or two.

Man, I would have loved to have a suppressor on my 240, that thing was loud! Of course, we would've needed two per gun (one for each barrel), so that's 12 silencers per section. Kinda pricey.

[SHE3PDOG]

Nah, it is more like the DMR's and a few pointmen that have them on their M4's. They aren't mass issued to everyone. That would be very pricey indeed.

[RJay]

I agree, different war, different tools, different bad guys, different tactics. Only thing the same is that when the final tally is in, war still sucks, even if you're young and immortal. I still believe that the primary use of a handgun in combat is for the movies. Yes, , I carried one, several different ones if fact, but it was more for the " feel good " reason than anything else. I even carried a small 22 mag derringer in my shaving kit when I went to the shower head. It made me feel good but useless.

[RX-79G]

It's been done. More than once:

[RX-79G]

Military issued silenced pistols, WWII through today:





That's some of the American pistols. The SEALs just bought HK45s for suppressors. The Russians and Chinese also have pistols and rifles built for suppression.

[SHE3PDOG]

I'm with you on all accounts there, RJay. Interesting list of silenced handguns. I had no clue we had them so early.

[45_auto]

Originally Posted by she3pdog

I can't imagine that being very comfortable to shoot, but I'd like to see one anyways just for the intrigue factor.

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/03/1...barrel-pistol/

[SHE3PDOG]

Thanks for that. That is cool.

[Sabrewolfe]

That has got to be one of the most gloriously ridiculous things I have ever seen. If you thought the Deagle was a handful...

Still, it would be hilarious to be able to see the look on a muggers face when he suddenly found himself staring down the barrels of that thing

[Gbnk82]

I'd like to see a bigger selection in 9mm carbines the market for them seems strong but there just are not many designs out there worth getting..I think something like a mp5 clone built with a full 16" barrel would be a fun gun..

[johnwilliamson062]

Making a compatible carbine that works well and uses a standard mag, as you say your pistol will, may give you a leg up in the market. It seems to me that turning a pistol into a decent carbine is a lot easier than many of the changes suggested.

[Unlicensed Dremel]

How about two 1911 systems melted together with two magazines. Double your pleasure, double your fun, kill twice as many ninjas, with only one gun.

You mean this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM-DGaNmtA0

6. A combat pistol that locates an Armson OEG type Binden site in the back of the slide. As fast and potentially accurate as a dot sight, but nothing sticking up out of the gun

This I really like. Good ideas, all. Keep 'em coming. If I could just get my Witness 6" Hunter in 10mm and Boberg XR9, I think I could die happy - well, except for the many rifles I want.