Last Valk Comments

[stagpanther]

This is probably above my pay grade--I'm just a home hobbyist that simply likes building AR's and developing loads for them. I have purchased several 224 valk barrels and tried to make the best of them--though have come across some issues that are pretty controversial--if you go over to the 6.8 or 224 valkyrie forums you can pretty much get the gist of the issues as boiling down to "possible" variances in the reamers used and whether or not they are within SAAMI compliance. There's even possible evidence the SAAMI specs themselves were issued in various "flavors" over the course of the industry's roll-out of the valk.

Bottom line is that so far the end-purchaser appears to be taking a gamble on both the chamber configuration and the performance expectations of the product they are buying. Strictly my opinion--but this is not a good thing and not only are customers potentially getting screwed, but the overall viability of the cartridge may be in jeopardy. It's become a sort of "race against time" to salvage those expectations with new factory ammo offerings that are up to par with the initial hype--again, just my opinion.

In the meantime, I've shot a thousand or so handload cartridges through both the "long cut" chamber and "short cut chamber" often veering off into what I would call wildcat territory.

I recently re-assembled a rifle based on a PSA valk barrel, and discovered some pretty interesting things. These interesting "things" I offer up as just my experience and for the reader's "food for thought."

I have two builds with the long cut reamer used and one using H's newer short cut barrel. After all the usual checks--my last check upon developing a new load is do load up dummy inert loads to see how well they cycle. In the pictures below I tested loads using the 80 matchking and 75 eld bullets. When using new starline brass the cartridges work fine in both "short and long cut" guns--though predictably in the "long cut" guns it takes some "creativity" with the COL to get near acceptable results.

If you look at the pictures below, you can see the spent cases have a uniform heavy carbon deposit around the case necks. This can be attributed to things like case neck wall dimensions, tension and powder burn-rate and primer used--but I don't think so, I think there is a fundamental issue with neck of the case in the chamber.

The interesting part is that I can resize the used brass and make new cartridges that conform to the SAAMI specs in the key areas--and they will pass and fit case gauges exactly the same as a handload using a new unfired case. But when I dry test-cycle the cartridge using the used case--there is notable resistance of the bolt upon extraction from the chamber. What make this even more interesting is that same reload used in H's barrel--which is made to tighter chamber tolerances--extracts just as easily as a new cartridge made of virgin components! That is definitely NOT what I would expect. I also included a close up of the bullets--admittedly the bullet will take some damage as a matter of course in chambering and extraction--but the cartridges that showed a propensity towards resistance to extraction also showed more abrasion marks that tended to be on just part of the side of the bullet.

All this could be due to simply my having made crappy builds and reloads--that's always a possibility. But I felt I should mention it because the carbon build-up could over time affect the chamber and possibly even head spacing. I have a strong hunch--but can't prove it, that there is a cartridge/bullet concentricity issue to the chamber--I've seen some really wild variations in group sizes as well as bullet spin stability which IMO go beyond "haven't found the sweet spot load."

And, with this post, it's "over and out" for me on discussing the valk since I do not want incur the wrath of the big boys.







The cartridges above were cycled about a dozen times through the rifles; both short and long cut.

[Model12Win]

Valk is a good DMR (pronounced “dimmer”) cart.

[stagpanther]

Valk is a good DMR (pronounced “dimmer”) cart.

The inherent performance of the cartridge is definitely there.

[bfoosh006]

@stagpanther

Everything you have pointed out makes sense.

I also have been on the fence about buying a .224 V... mostly because there seems to be quite a bit of "hit or miss" in the accuracy dept..

Up until reading your findings... I was beginning to think the standard 1n7 twist just wasn't cutting it.
I felt maybe a 1n6.5 would help.

Have you ever CerroSafe chamber casted before ?

I would love to see some measurements from both chambers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DByaASz_HNk

Also... do you happen to have a Bore Scope ?

And, because I can't seem to find it... can you IM me some links to your other forum threads and for "Harrison" ?

[stagpanther]

@stagpanther

Everything you have pointed out makes sense.

I also have been on the fence about buying a .224 V... mostly because there seems to be quite a bit of "hit or miss" in the accuracy dept..

Up until reading your findings... I was beginning to think the standard 1n7 twist just wasn't cutting it.
I felt maybe a 1n6.5 would help.

Have you ever CerroSafe chamber casted before ?

I would love to see some measurements from both chambers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DByaASz_HNk

Also... do you happen to have a Bore Scope ?

I did do a cerrosoft cast of the PSA chamber and confirmed what H was talking about. I already assembled his new barrel and didn't do a cast--I wish I had but bullet seating tests have shown that the freebore to lands is much shorter. Doing a cast is tricky once the barrel is installed on an AR--but I may try later. If you reload and are willing to go outside of SAAMI specs--you can still make it a heck of shooter if you have the long freebore chamber--therein lies the rub. Getting the right combo of stability, performance, chambering etc is going to be very challenging with factory loads. I need to get a bore scope at some point--a real one.

As for the twist--I think the 6.5 or less is the way to go--but then again might get unpredictable with lighter faster loads. I've found the 1:7 is fine with 90 gr on down bullets if I can get the bullet going fast enough and close enough to the lands/grooves.

[stagpanther]

I took a look at Hornady's site and using their own numbers it looks to me that their new 88eld match ammo drops subsonic right about at 1000 yds--very impressive--but still not in the ballpark of "just like a creedmoor" IMO.

[ed308]

And, because I can't seem to find it... can you IM me some links to your other forum threads and for "Harrison" ?

Go to the 68 Forum. You'll find several threads for the .224 Valkyrie. One is for the .224 Valkyrie long freebore. The other is the newer .224 Valkyrie that H refers as his .224 Valkyrie SAAMI (VLD). The VLD matches the SAAMI spec drawing perfectly.

https://68forums.com/forums/showthre...=.224+Valkyrie

[ed308]

Stag:

In your opinion, would there be much gain in purchasing a SAAMI spec barrel like H's VLD if you already have a long freebore barrel plus reload? Other than shooting factory ammo with decent accuracy, is there any real advantage?.

[stagpanther]

thanks ed.

[stagpanther]

In your opinion, would there be much gain in purchasing a SAAMI spec barrel like H's VLD if you already have a long freebore barrel plus reload? Other than shooting factory ammo with decent accuracy, is there any real advantage?.

Hmmm--that's a tough one--because for me the answer comes down to "how far off the reservation" are you willing to go?

The real problem comes down to whether or not you are going to be shooting strictly factory ammo. If that's the case--then you are going to be forced to play "wait and see" to see what the manufacturers roll out. On top of that, it's going to be a question of how well it works in potentially different chamber cuts among the barrels that are out there. Who even knows what was used in their test barrels? Do you see the inherent conundrum that's working against the cartridge?

I suspect somebody will come out with a cartridge that does reasonably well in most of the barrels out there--lord knows there's pent-up demand. I think when that happens all the "just like a creedmoor" hype will vanish from their advertising. I'm still very dubious about achieving true 1000+ yds supersonic long range performance with a less than 90 gr bullet that is loaded to SAAMI specs.

At this point--either one is strictly a reloader's proposition if you want the best performance lacking a good factory load. I haven't done a whole lot with H's short freebore cut (nor have I tried Hornady's 88 eld factory ammo--which may very well be good, I don't know)--except I did try some 88 eld loaded to a COL of 2.29 which fits a regular magazine--except that I did have intermittent problems with the follower pitching down a bit when the bullet nose contacted the magazine front wall; resulting in a few double-feeds.

The one "silver lining" about the long freebore barrel is that if you're willing to stray into wildcat territory and go way past the 2.26 COL spec--you can use more powder and more bullet which does put you in the ballpark of the "just like a creedmoor" hype.

Sorry if that seems confusing or evasive, I'm trying to be as honest as I can based on just my experience.

[ed308]

The one "silver lining" about the long freebore barrel is that if you're willing to stray into wildcat territory and go way past the 2.26 COL spec--you can use more powder and more bullet which does put you in the ballpark of the "just like a creedmoor" hype.

Sorry if that seems confusing or evasive, I'm trying to be as honest as I can based on just my experience.

Not confusing at all. And what I was thinking. I will only build one .224 Valkyrie, at least for now. So my long freebore will be the build instead of selling the barrel. I've received my Valkyrie Redding dies and Starline brass. Still waiting on a Wilson Case gauge and Odin Adjustable gas block. Work bench with vise is setup. Just need to build my Valkyrie, organized my reloading bench then crank out some ammo. 77 and 80 gr Nosler Custom Comps will be my bullet for now.

Thanks for your input and work with this cartridge.

[stagpanther]

77 and 80 gr Nosler Custom Comps will be my bullet for now.

Thanks for your input and work with this cartridge.

No problem--take everything I say with a grain a salt--somebody out there is bound to say they've had the opposite results.

The use of lightweight bullets is where I part company with most of the other folks that are developing valk loads--I prefer the 90-95 gr bullets (I found one stellar load using sierra's 95 MK for the long freebore--and that bullet still isn't quite what I would call optimal for the valk).

[stagpanther]

BTW--the hornady brass seems better to me than either the starline or federal.

[ed308]

Forget that Hornady sold Valkyrie brass. But Starline's price of $103.00 with free shipping for 250 pieces is hard to beat.

[stagpanther]

But Starline's price of $103.00 with free shipping for 250 pieces is hard to beat.

I know--I did the same thing; and I still use it but it's not up to the quality of Hornady's in my experience. Wish Lapua made some. The brass is going to get stressed in that chamber.

[ed308]

How many uses did you get with Starline brass compared to the Hornady brass?

[stagpanther]

How many uses did you get with Starline brass compared to the Hornady brass?

Again--just my opinion(s):

It's not a question of "how many uses"--in other words how many firings did you get before some kind of failure like neck split--case bulged too much etc.

The starline brass I think is just a bit too loose in it's dimensions--I resize and trim all of it even when unfired. But after a firing or two--I've noticed the necks are quite loose booth in chamber sealing and bullet grip tension. The case main body diameter seems to change a bit also--as I previously mentioned it can resize back to basic specs but still have troubles chambering freely. By chambering freely--I mean you can drop the bolt on it and it will extract freely without "stickiness" by either the bolt or the cartridge in the chamber.

When I look at the velocity the cartridge can do--and the celestial BC/SD numbers of the bullets--my conclusion is that this cartridge should be able to easily shoot WELL under .5 MOA.

[bfoosh006]

I finally got time to peruse the 6.8 Forum threads.... VERY interesting read.

Those chamber dimension differences are pretty wild.

I also would have thought those specs would have been handled much sooner ( and better )

( Going back to look around some more )

[stagpanther]

I finally got time to peruse the 6.8 Forum threads.... VERY interesting read.

Those chamber dimension differences are pretty wild.

I also would have thought those specs would have been handled much sooner ( and better )

( Going back to look around some more )

A long freebore isn't all that unusual--but the consumer not knowing what their getting (and theoretically should) is left holding the bag trying to figure out why they bought something that isn't shooting off the shelf ammo that meets the hype attributed to the cartridge. Even if you load your own it's a challenge to get loads that adapt well--though it can be done. I'll get back to more cartridge testing after hunting season is over (though by that time we'll be down around zero and likely feet of snow on the ground)

[bfoosh006]

Stagpanther, that is exactly what I was thinking.

A long freebore is actually more common then most realize.

But in a precision firearm... I sure would rather know if my barrel has a long freebore... or a little if no freebore / short throat.

Heck, even if the chamber differences were labeled, then at least anyone could know what they are getting.

I want to say the 6.5CM went through the same ordeal.

A short freebore could explain a lot of pressure signs with loads / ammo developed in a long freebore.

Much like Weatherby factory ammo showing wild pressure signs in firearms without the Weatherby factory freebores... ( some are 3/4" from the factory. .378 and .460 ....http://www.weatherby.com/support/faqs.html... 13th question ) )

[stagpanther]

I've learned quite a bit through this experience--and it's been an expensive one--I have now have 3 complete valk builds with optics. What astounds me is how the reamers can go out and rushed into use for barrel production apparently without anyone actually checking the reamer and chamber results for accuracy--and above all seeing if the existing ammo/cartridge options actually work as advertised. It seems to me none of this was done amid the release hype. If you "get down in the trenches" reloading valk cartridges it becomes quickly obvious that there are inherent problems with using existing factory cartridges and bullets to maximize the performance possibilities. I reload a "valk type 1" for the long freebore with COL's around 2.35"--depending on the bullet; and do a "valk type 2" for the shorter freebore which is much more accommodating of "to spec" cartridges of 2.26" +/- COL's. But to do the long COL's you are basically a wildcatter and on your own testing outside spec cartridges. For those comfortable with that--I suspect a minuscule portion of the market--that's OK, but certainly should not be what people have to do to meet performance expectations they were led to believe by all the hype.

[bfoosh006]

I gotta say ... I feel the "need" to cero-cast all my 6.5CM chambers... just to see if this is the case with that as well.

Remember the Youtube video of the older gunsmith claiming the same thing about the 6.5CM a few months after the full scale commercial release of the 6.5CM ?

( I realize the "off" headspace variation could have to do with a semi/ auto chamber perhaps needing to be "looser" for a variety of reasons )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KDrLsnt2MM

It ( the 6.5CM , IMHO ) was also the next, best, latest thing out there.... ( and is in most aspects ) but... perhaps in the rush to sell firearms.... certain dimensions were altered a decent amount.

I think I will pull a bullet and remove the primer, ream the primer pocket big enough, clear through.. so I can fit the Bore cam through... and use the case mouth as a reference point .... and compare throats in the 6.5CM.

[stagpanther]

I'm not saying that a long freebore length is an "automatic" bad sign in and of itself--it all depends on the bullets you are using--specifically their length, where they are seated to and where the base of the ogive begins. The creedmoor is another design which--IMO only--is vulnerable to irregularities in chambering simply by having very high SD bullets seated relatively long forward of the case mouth. The best high BC bullets for reliable cycling in an AR (in my experience) will generally have a "hybrid" ogive design rather than a very aerodynamic center of pressure rear of center like you might find in say a Berger match grade vld. I have managed to get the regular match vld's to work--but it often means a lot of experimentation with COL's to get the right one that will feed the best and reliably. Usually a few damaged bullets get sacrificed along the way.

[bfoosh006]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1lUiH1_KaY

You guys might find this interesting.

[stagpanther]

What a surprise. Have very strong opinions about this but not going to bother saying them--not worth it at this point.