Why are there no poly-framed super-compact semiautos

[simonrichter]

it occured to me that, despite the vast variety of models on the firearms market, there are no polymer framed super-tiny mouseguns. The Taurus PT22 and the Kahr P380 are about as smallas it gets with a plastic frame. All of the super-concealables like the Seecamp, NAA or Bauer Baby Browning copies are massive metal frame guns.

Is there any technical reason for that or is it just the result of a dwindling interest in minor calibers mouseguns?

[racedawg]

Beleive Springfield makes a 9mm..seen one few yrs back.it was really small

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[RickB]

If you mean .22s and .25s specifically, it's probably a matter of there not being much demand.

There are some small, polymer-framed .380s.

[burrhead]

I've had a nice Colt 1908 Vest Pocket for 30+ years. I might carry it every few years at a function just for fun. Have my eye out for a Beretta Minx just to have one. I like the little bugs for what they are; fun big-boy toys but there's no real market. Seecamps are nice but no company that wants to stay in business would tool up to make a new design.

[TailGator]

You're mostly talking about pistols with one-finger grips. The light weight of polymer would likely make it even tougher to keep a grip on the little buggers. Combine that with the .22 and .25 cartridges being so widely panned for defensive use, and it might be hard to generate a lot of interest.

[simonrichter]

@tailGator: I suppose that's the explanation.... It's still a little odd that there are soo many different models out there and not a single poly framed Baby Browning sitze. Now you mention it, the PT22 ply has Quite a beefy grip for more than two fingers

[TunnelRat]

Personally I find a number of those pistols rather unpleasant to shoot and not very easy to shoot well. At the local gun stores near me the small pocket pistols often end up in the used gun section because people find out that in practice it's not as easy as they'd hoped.

[PSP]

All of the super-concealables like the Seecamp, NAA or Bauer Baby Browning copies are massive metal frame guns.

Massive??? What? How small do you want?

Many .380 pocket guns are hugely popular, whether polymer or metal framed.

[JERRYS.]

the kel-tec p32

[TailGator]

Massive??? What? How small do you want?

Many .380 pocket guns are hugely popular, whether polymer or metal framed.

I took the comment to refer to the material mass, or weight (and yes, physics majors, I know the difference) of metal being higher. Most reports, and my own experience, relate that the metal .380s (Sig P238, NAA) transmit less felt recoil than the polymer pistols of similar size (like the LCP). Its the old trade-off of mass being good for shooting and bad for carrying, though. The LCP is extremely popular for being so easy to carry.

[valleyforge.1777]

How much real difference is there between the weight of a polymer frame and an aluminum frame for a small handgun? Once you take the upper section off (slide, barrel, recoil rod, spring) the aluminum frames are REALLY light.

[tallball]

The Kel-Tec P32 and P3AT, and the pistols "inspired by them".

[Carl the Floor Walker]

First of all you are talking about Grips and not frames. The Pico for instance has a steel frame and a polymer grip. The Kahr has steel inserts and a polymer grip. Same with other guns. A polymer grip can crack under pressure or heavy use in some cases, like the Ruger LCP.

[drunder40]

Would the Colt Mustang XTP FE qualify as a super compact? it is tiny..

[simonrichter]

No, I would only count anything nearly the sitze of a Baby Browning - the Mustang is 5,5" long!.

[TRX]

I dunno, my Ruger LCP has a plastic frame, and it's pretty small.

[TailGator]

How much real difference is there between the weight of a polymer frame and an aluminum frame for a small handgun? Once you take the upper section off (slide, barrel, recoil rod, spring) the aluminum frames are REALLY light.

I don't know about the frames only, but to take a couple of examples, Sig lists the weight of the P238 as 16 oz, and Ruger says the LCP (the old version) weighs less than 10 oz.

[ammo.crafter]

I guess the PK380 would be too large to be considered.

I will day that my AMT Backup is a micro compact and is steel, yet the 380 recoil is sharp due to its size. A poly mini would exhibit vastly greater felt recoil. Perhaps this is why manufacturers have not gotten into them.

[Bill DeShivs]

The larger the gun, the more advantage polymer holds.
There are few guns of ANY composition the size of the Baby Browning!
Bernardelli
Walther 9
Unique Mikros
Browning clones.
I doubt a polymer-framed Baby Browning would show any weight saving over the lightweight alloy version.
The Keltec P-32, while larger, weighs less than the lightweight Browning.

[JohnKSa]

The smaller/lighter the gun in a given caliber, the harder it is to make it reliable. Interesting quote by Les Baer in the January issue of American Handgunner.

In reference to pistols with barrels shorter than 4.25", Baer commented: "Its just too hard to get those small guns to run 100 percent. Some people can come close, but close isn't good enough for me."

I also recall reading an article in Shotgun News some years back by one of the authors (Frank James) who bought a Kahr PM40 (.40S&W version of the PM9) and had trouble getting it to shoot reliably. He had a steel-framed version of the gun and thought he was getting an even better carry gun by picking up the polymer frame version. Unfortunately, even after a trip to a custom gunsmith he finally had to live with the fact that if he didn't hold it very firmly it was going to jam on him. It was bad enough that he could only shoot about a box of ammo through it in a range session before his hands weakened from fatigue and he started getting jams.

At some point, a gun gets small enough that if you try to make it lighter by going to a polymer frame you're just not going to be able to make it work all the time.

My personal lower size weight limit for a polymer 9mm is the CW9/P9. In a heavier caliber I would go bigger/heavier. In a smaller caliber, a little smaller and lighter would be acceptable.

[TunnelRat]

In reference to pistols with barrels shorter than 4.25", Baer commented: "Its just too hard to get those small guns to run 100 percent. Some people can come close, but close isn't good enough for me."

While I can see that for the 1911, I've owned a number of subcompacts with barrels shorter than that and were reliable. M&P 9c, Glock 26, P2000sk, and probably some I'm forgetting.

[Cirdan]

"If you mean .22s and .25s specifically, it's probably a matter of there not being much demand.

There are some small, polymer-framed .380s. "

Exactly. Given how easy it is to carry one of the small .380s, like the LCP, why would you want a .32 or less? There are even some 9's approaching that size.

[JohnKSa]

While I can see that for the 1911, I've owned a number of subcompacts with barrels shorter than that and were reliable. M&P 9c, Glock 26, P2000sk, and probably some I'm forgetting.

His business isn't limited to only 1911s, but you are correct that his focus is probably some what narrower than most.

I didn't intend for the quote to be viewed as proof that a pistol with a barrel under 4.25" can't be reliable. I quoted it as supporting evidence that pistol reliability tends to be reduced when the gun size/weight is reduced.

Is 4.25" the lower barrel length limit for a reliable pistol? Nope, I carry a CW9/P9 which has a barrel length of 3.6" and clearly I believe it's reliable or I wouldn't carry it. But I do realize that its small size and light weight means it likely won't be as tolerant of ammo variations or poor shooting grip as a larger, heavier gun would be.

[TunnelRat]

I didn't intend for the quote to be viewed as proof that a pistol with a barrel under 4.25" can't be reliable.

I didn't take it that way. I was simply sharing my own experience.

[gglass]

I cannot imagine needing anything smaller or lighter than an LCP in .380 ACP. It has the minimum cartridge size that I would ever want for self defense, and with a weight of around 10oz, it does not sag my jeans or shorts. With just enough polymer grip to hold onto, and a slide just long enough to accurately aim, what more (or less) could I ask for?