Home Defense: Rifle vs Shotgun vs Handgun

[Don Fischer]

Would be neat to see a shoot out between a rifle, shotgun and handgun in a typical house. Wonder who would clear the house first? If the shotgun was altered to shoot from the hil with a short as possible barrel, it just might win. But I thing modification's would be pretty extensive for it to do well. For rifles, the only one's having a chance would be AR type rifles if for no other reason than they are semi-auto. The handgun in any form would not need anything in the way of altering. I would for myself rather a semi-auto also. Fire power. My carry gun is a Shield 9c, single stack, 8 rds. That trump's a revolver with six rounds, BTW, my preference in handgun's is DA Revolver's. In my headboard is my choice for home defense, a P89 Ruger. Bit longer barrel, double stack magazine, heavier. The double stack mag make's the difference in my view. 16 rds ves 8 in my Shield. Shield hide's better and much lighter to carry all day. The Ruger on the other hand give's much needed fire power. I would hate to have to stop after 8 rds and change magazines! Fast as they can be changed, it's a lot faster to go to the extra 8 rds of the Ruger and then when it take's the same amount of time to load another 16 rds as another 8 in the Shield. Big factor in favor of a radically cut down shotgun is it will get anyone's attention! Rack in a round with a pump shotgun and the fight is probably in most case's be done!

I saw on the computer somewhere a head board that holds a full size shotgun. Pretty quick to get out but still have that length problem. If you actually need more than 5 rds to end the assault or run the guy off, you need more than the gun. You need to learn how to use it. I just though, on a cutdown shotgun it might not be an issue as with the full size shotgun. Cut the barrel down on a pump and the shot opens a lot quicker. Leave the barrel long and deal with the choke and the pattern tighten's up some. If the bad guy is in close enough, you could shoot poorly with the choked gun. Of course for changing someone's mind, there's nothing like blowing the gate off the hinges!

[PlatinumCore16]

Don, read one of your earlier posts in this thread about cutting down a shotgun and then only using the pistol grip with no stock. I would recommend looking into accuracy and usability/operability of a pistol grip only shotgun.

I researched this heavily when I purchased my shotgun and read many posts, articles, and threads about the use of shotguns with a pistol grip only. In fact there was a user here on this forum that trained security guards in the use of "sawed off" shotguns and said how it could be made to work, but was the dumbest idea he'd ever seen and trained. Wish I could find that for ya, but if someone remembers that post just post it or pm me and I'll add it.

[Danoobie]

I agree with PlatinumCore16, on this one.
IME, any light 12 gauge SG, even with low
brass bird-shot, kicks like a mule on crack.
Add a pistol grip to that, and you're asking for
some serious recoil, especially when you're
firing buckshot loads.

That thing Linda Hamilton did with the riot gun
in T2 looked real cool, but in real life, it doesn't
work like the movies. I would highly recommend you
borrow somebody's 12G SXS Coach Gun, with a shoulder
stock, and cut loose with a few rounds, before you consider
putting a pistol grip on a shotgun.

[TXAZ]

I'll stick with my Sig handgun.
If I wanted to "clear the house" without regard to walls, water pipes, wires, gas lines or the neighbors, I'd pull out the rifle. Not going to happen.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I guess the correct answer is have al three available with the correct rounds for home defense loaded.

I think, as I have been saying repeatedly, that they know how to use all of them appropriately.

No one real would suggest a pistol grip shotgun as optimal for the untrained home defender.

We are still in the loop of hardware over software.

It's mindset, tactics and THEN equipment.

How does a shotgun clear the house first? The shotgun doesn't do it by itself. It is the user, for God's sake.

I just hope for some readers of the thread, they get the takeaaway message that the magic equipment gun isn't the place to start. For the rest, enjoy the equipment fantasy. Boy - I'm cranky on this one.

[CalmerThanYou]

In the world I live in, being proficient with any firearm you own is a fundamental basic.

[MosinNOUGAT]

It is hard to see what they offer as compared to the 223 chambered regular configuration long arms.

That's what I was thinking, especially for the price. Probably easier to just get as shortened AR than a $1100 kriss vector with less power.

[Rangerrich99]

Like the OP, I had similar questions regarding my options for home defense. Consequently, over the years I've modified my choices more than once. And after talking with several professionals (shooting instructors, LEOs, defensive shooting instructors) I came to the conclusion that the answer is: it depends on what you've trained for and with what type of weapon you've trained.

My opinion on the subject is mine and mine alone, and probably shouldn't have much influence on what another decides is best for them.

However, in the interest of replying to the OP, my short answer is: first the AR, then the shotgun, then the handgun.

Now the long answer:

I have my mossberg 500 with the 18.5 inch barrel (standard stock; I gave away the pistol grip) loaded with 00 buckshot. When I lived in an apartment, I was concerned with over-penetration, and chose no. 4 buckshot. Now I live in a house, and being that I live in the PHX area, my house is surrounded on three sides by a 6 ft. tall cinder block wall (pretty common in PHX), so I don't worry about penetration at all. Two extra boxes of shells in the nightstand.

My reason for choosing the shotgun is that I'm very familiar with operating this particular gun in a hurry under some stress; it just comes with bird hunting. Birds appear out of nowhere and move quickly, so you get used to not only pointing quickly from odd body positions, but running the pump quickly as well for the follow-up shot. With all that practice, it's not difficult for me to snap off 3 shells in about one second.

As far as rounds, people seem to forget that in just one 00 buckshot shell there are 9 .33 inch (50 gr.?) lead balls, flying at approx. 1,200 fps. So I'm not shooting one round at a time, I'm shooting nine projectiles per trigger pull. If I only get two rounds off per second (maybe I just woke up and I'm a bit slow) that's 18 pellets/bullets with two trigger pulls. Far more rounds than I can get off with either a rifle or a handgun in 1-2 seconds. If I have to fire all six rounds that's, let's see, fifty-four .33 caliber balls; many more projectiles than either my AR-15 or my handgun can even hold in one of their magazines.

As far as pattern goes, well with that short barrel, at 15 ft. it's a little bigger than a baseball. So no, I can't sweep a whole room with a couple shots, but let's be honest, all I have to do is put the muzzle over the thoracic cavity and press, producing a baseball-sized pattern somewhere near the middle of the bad guy. (btw, from my own experience, if you hit a man-sized animal such as a 150-200 lb. porker in what amounts to the thoracic cavity area with one of these at a distance of less than 15 ft., they tend to go down immediately or very quickly).

But let's say for the sake of argument that the scenario is basically contact distance and the shot won't spread. The muzzle of my mossy is about .74 inches (.74 caliber). About an ounce of lead moving at 1,200 fps at the muzzle. Is anyone really going to tell me that wouldn't do serious damage to the bad guy? Is he made of iron? Kevlar?

At any rate, the caveats to my choice are- that I live alone (other than my niece and nephew a few times a year and the GF a few times a week) so I don't have a lot of friendlies running around the house to worry about. So if you're in my house and I didn't know about it, the probability is just about 100% that you're a bad guy. Of course, it's a moot scenario in my case, as there's no way around my two dogs that go into "danger, Will Robinson" mode if anyone gets within ten feet of the house. And Max is a Rhodesian Ridgeback (dog bred to hunt African lions, 150 lbs. with two-inch fangs and no pain receptors in his whole body). As a matter of fact, my best home defense weapons are probably my two very large, very protective dogs.

So, while I probably wouldn't tell one of my friends to make a pump shotgun their first choice in HD, especially if they didn't much experience with shotguns, for myself I'm perfectly comfortable using a shotgun to hold off the bad guys until the cavalry shows up.

For the OP, you must come to your own decision based on your own training and experience. Or get a big protective dog or two.

Little video for your viewing pleasure:
https://youtu.be/dbFLY9OIqPA

[PlatinumCore16]

I think what makes your opinion(dare I say experience) different is that you have a reason for your choices, location, training/experience, and that makes your decisions personal.

In the spirit of compliance(though if accused I will deny it) if we are to continue this thread we should follow the suggestion of Glenn and talk more about the "software", if you will, than the hardware. Not trying to toot my own horn, but in my post I never actually stated what I used apart from a handgun/shotgun, but then gave a reasoning behind/scenarios in which I thought through. Ranger you did the same, so I think that's a good addition.

Would like to see some scenarios from other folks on mindset of other weapons. Please forgive me if I have misunderstood the request though, Glenn.

[Rangerrich99]

In the spirit of compliance(though if accused I will deny it) if we are to continue this thread we should follow the suggestion of Glenn and talk more about the "software", if you will, than the hardware. Not trying to toot my own horn, but in my post I never actually stated what I used apart from a handgun/shotgun, but then gave a reasoning behind/scenarios in which I thought through. Ranger you did the same, so I think that's a good addition.

Would like to see some scenarios from other folks on mindset of other weapons.

A very good point. I'll have to reconsider my reply.

[MosinNOUGAT]

Would like to see some scenarios from other folks on mindset of other weapons.

I have thought of a scenario involving staying in one room.

Say a robber comes into your house and you decide to stay in one room where you only have to guard one door.

Would a bayonet work for this?

I was thinking a few rounds would be fired off and then you could just stab him and finish the job.

[FITASC]

Wonder who would clear the house first

The police after dialing 911 and waiting behind the bedroom door and bed.

Clearing the house is for video game commandos

[Don Fischer]

Platinum Core. With the cut down shotgun you can use lesser loads. I load my shotgun's down on purpose just because of recoil and I don't have a cut down one. If you use a 20ga and either load your own down or even shoot target loads recoil come's way down. I don't think I know anyone that can take a load of bird shot from a 20ga and smile!

[Don Fischer]

Glen, no one would recommend any fire arm for an untrained defender!

[MosinNOUGAT]

Glen, no one would recommend any fire arm for an untrained defender!

This is a very true statement!

[K_Mac]

I don't think I know anyone that can take a load of bird shot from a 20ga and smile!

It would certainly leave a nasty surface wound. Whether it will stop an assailant is another question. Birdshot is great for birds, rabbits and such, but for stopping a preditor looking to kill, rape or pillage, no thanks.

[2damnold4this]

I have thought of a scenario involving staying in one room.

Say a robber comes into your house and you decide to stay in one room where you only have to guard one door.

Would a bayonet work for this?

I was thinking a few rounds would be fired off and then you could just stab him and finish the job.

Staying in the same room is a good idea. People have defended themselves with spears, swords and knives. That doesn't make them the best option but it does show how important mindset can be. If all you have is a Nagant with a bayonet, use it. But it isn't optimal.

It would be a good idea to take some courses and to become familiar with various types of firearms (perhaps you rent them at a range) before making a choice.

I think the only advantages of a pistol caliber carbine have over a rifle caliber carbine are lower recoil, noise and muzzle flash as well as cheaper practice ammo if it is a 9mm. If those advantages encourage more practice, it might be worth it. Otherwise, a rifle caliber carbine in 5.56 or such would be better, IMO.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Folks, the OP's discussion of the bayonet confirms my suspicion that the OP has little serious knowledge and/or intent in this thread.

Anyone who says something like that needs a deep and serious study of the laws of self-defense and tactics.

I appreciate the serious discussions that many of you engaged in. I discourage those who came very close to trolling, which should be obvious to all.

Thus, closed.

BTW, one should read Frank Ettin's posts on the laws of self-defense and cases on how finishing the job (how immature) is a ticket to prison.