Diagnose this jam please

chris in va · January 24, 2016, 06:33 PM

CZ 97b, 230gr LRN or 200gr SWC. Both do it.

The extractor has been thoroughly cleaned so I don't see it being the problem. Sometimes the fired case is facing forward but mostly backward.

The charges are about middle/upper range, not max though.

SQUAREKNOT · January 24, 2016, 06:45 PM

Reloads? Same mag? Bad mag/spring?

chris in va · January 24, 2016, 07:00 PM

Reloads, different mags, stock springs.

thump_rrr · January 24, 2016, 07:43 PM

Was this load in this gun previously working properly?

Shotgun Slim · January 24, 2016, 07:44 PM

I have a buddy who had a 1911 do the same thing. He spent a year replacing parts,changing mags,everything he could do. Had experts look at the thing-no cure. Poor guy has bought another gun. His loads were also light/midrange stuff. I can only wish you good luck sincerely.

JeepHammer · January 24, 2016, 08:10 PM

I can't see the Extractor or Ejector marks on the case to be sure, but it looks like what I've seen several times before.

Understand the dynamics of what's happening,
The extractor (Claw on the slide, you can see it from outside) isn't holding the case long enough for the EJECTOR (a pin sticking up usually from the frame) to throw it clear of the action.

Either the claw has crud under it, so it's not getting a good bite,
The claw is rounded over, not getting a good bite on the rim of the round,
Or the spring is weak, again, not getting a good grip on the rim of the round.

This could also be an EJECTOR, the pin that throws the case out of the action,
Being just a hair too short, chipped away a little, or bent backwards a little.

The extractor *Should* get a grip on the rim of the case,
Hold the case until the case contacts the Ejector SOLIDLY.

At that point, the case mouth is free of the chamber and the Ejector can flip the case out of the weapon, the claw of the Extractor looses grip as the case rotates out from the impact with the Ejector.

Short Ejector (for what ever reason) and a weak extractor claw will just flip the case around backwards.

I had the same issues before, wasn't even the firearm, it was a batch of brass with thick rims, the case wouldn't release from the claw correctly.

Guys with 1911's see a version of this, the 'Stove Pipe Jam', where the case lets go too soon and doesn't hit the Ejector hard enough, the case stands straight up and looks like a 'Stove Pipe'.

pnac · January 24, 2016, 08:17 PM

Try the CZ forums, if it's happened to anyone before those guys probably know about it.

pnac · January 24, 2016, 08:33 PM

Very good, JeepHammer. I was going to suggest a bad extractor until I noticed the extractor mark on the case rim. Still, a dirty extractor combined with a weak charge (notice the soot on the case) could cause that.

Or maybe he was shooting "gangsta style" with a weak charge.

JeepHammer · January 24, 2016, 09:38 PM

Every EJECTOR bends, chips, wears over time...
I had a CZ clone years ago that the Ejector folded down into the frame, all you got was the 'Bump' on the back curve of the ejector, which didn't do SQUAT for getting the case out of the slide...

Since I wasn't used to 'Fold Down Ejector v.2.0' I ALWAYS had to take the slide off, fold that thing up, and start over again when I went to the range with it.
Glad it wasn't a personal defense firearm, it would only shoot ONCE...

--------

Limp wrist a 1911 and it will sure cause issues!

I had a customer with a Glock that wouldn't eject,
He brings it in, I can't find an issue,
He's back the next day, I STILL can't find an issue,
He comes back again, so finally I have him shoot it.
Muzzle bucks up 10 or 15 degrees on anyone else,
Goes up 45 or 50 degrees with him...
FOUND THE PROBLEM!

Pulls the trigger, lets it FREE RECOIL, "Like You See In The Movies With Big Guns" he says...
He was a BIG guy too!

JeepHammer · January 24, 2016, 09:44 PM

I can't make any promises I've come close,
Didn't see the firearm do the issue, or even fire.
Just covering the things it's most likely to be...

Tight chambers and dirty ammo can cause the same issue, so will rusted chambers.
Too much force expended yanking the case to throw it.
You *Usually* see a really deep rim extraction gouge when that happens since it takes so much force to get the case out of the chamber...

Old/Weak ammo can do the same thing...
I saw a guy locally that the case just spun in the air just right of the ejection port and fell to the ground about 2 feet away.
Turned out to be VERY old ammo (like WW II surplus) that was corroded.
New ammo cycled like a champ and threw cases like it was supposed to do.
Considerably more recoil with the new ammo...

chris in va · January 24, 2016, 09:47 PM

I took the slide off and noticed the extractor won't hold an unfired round in place. It has a LCI that has to be depressed but there's still some wiggle in there.

Perhaps it's time for a new extractor.

Also, CZ updated their ejector to a longer design sometime around 2013. Mine is just a little nub, not exactly confidence inspiring.

JeepHammer · January 25, 2016, 08:20 AM

That's a solid Ejector! 'BOUT TIME!

Ask any of the guys will little curved, dinky pieces of stamped metal what they think of their ejectors... Right after they have 'Issues'...
Or like I had, a 'Fold Away' ejector, every time you leaned the frame forward before the slide was fully installed, the ejector folded down...

Weak spring in the extractor?
They are usually pretty easy to find, most are common size.
Might just be crud build up.
Don't ask me how it happens, but carbon/crud LOVE to get into that spring hole and plug things up...

January 24, 2016, 06:33 PM	#1
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	Diagnose this jam please CZ 97b, 230gr LRN or 200gr SWC. Both do it. The extractor has been thoroughly cleaned so I don't see it being the problem. Sometimes the fired case is facing forward but mostly backward. The charges are about middle/upper range, not max though.

January 24, 2016, 08:17 PM	#7
pnac Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2008 Posts: 550	Try the CZ forums, if it's happened to anyone before those guys probably know about it. __________________ In my hour of darkness In my time of need Oh Lord grant me vision Oh Lord grant me speed - Gram Parsons

January 24, 2016, 08:33 PM	#8
pnac Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2008 Posts: 550	Very good, JeepHammer. I was going to suggest a bad extractor until I noticed the extractor mark on the case rim. Still, a dirty extractor combined with a weak charge (notice the soot on the case) could cause that. Or maybe he was shooting "gangsta style" with a weak charge. __________________ In my hour of darkness In my time of need Oh Lord grant me vision Oh Lord grant me speed - Gram Parsons

January 24, 2016, 06:45 PM	#2
SQUAREKNOT Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2008 Posts: 263	Reloads? Same mag? Bad mag/spring?

January 24, 2016, 07:00 PM	#3
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	Reloads, different mags, stock springs.

January 24, 2016, 07:43 PM	#4
thump_rrr Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2010 Posts: 403	Was this load in this gun previously working properly?

January 24, 2016, 07:44 PM	#5
Shotgun Slim Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2014 Location: Va Posts: 291	I have a buddy who had a 1911 do the same thing. He spent a year replacing parts,changing mags,everything he could do. Had experts look at the thing-no cure. Poor guy has bought another gun. His loads were also light/midrange stuff. I can only wish you good luck sincerely.

January 24, 2016, 08:10 PM	#6
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	I can't see the Extractor or Ejector marks on the case to be sure, but it looks like what I've seen several times before. Understand the dynamics of what's happening, The extractor (Claw on the slide, you can see it from outside) isn't holding the case long enough for the EJECTOR (a pin sticking up usually from the frame) to throw it clear of the action. Either the claw has crud under it, so it's not getting a good bite, The claw is rounded over, not getting a good bite on the rim of the round, Or the spring is weak, again, not getting a good grip on the rim of the round. This could also be an EJECTOR, the pin that throws the case out of the action, Being just a hair too short, chipped away a little, or bent backwards a little. The extractor Should get a grip on the rim of the case, Hold the case until the case contacts the Ejector SOLIDLY. At that point, the case mouth is free of the chamber and the Ejector can flip the case out of the weapon, the claw of the Extractor looses grip as the case rotates out from the impact with the Ejector. Short Ejector (for what ever reason) and a weak extractor claw will just flip the case around backwards. I had the same issues before, wasn't even the firearm, it was a batch of brass with thick rims, the case wouldn't release from the claw correctly. Guys with 1911's see a version of this, the 'Stove Pipe Jam', where the case lets go too soon and doesn't hit the Ejector hard enough, the case stands straight up and looks like a 'Stove Pipe'.

January 24, 2016, 09:38 PM	#9
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	Every EJECTOR bends, chips, wears over time... I had a CZ clone years ago that the Ejector folded down into the frame, all you got was the 'Bump' on the back curve of the ejector, which didn't do SQUAT for getting the case out of the slide... Since I wasn't used to 'Fold Down Ejector v.2.0' I ALWAYS had to take the slide off, fold that thing up, and start over again when I went to the range with it. Glad it wasn't a personal defense firearm, it would only shoot ONCE... -------- Limp wrist a 1911 and it will sure cause issues! I had a customer with a Glock that wouldn't eject, He brings it in, I can't find an issue, He's back the next day, I STILL can't find an issue, He comes back again, so finally I have him shoot it. Muzzle bucks up 10 or 15 degrees on anyone else, Goes up 45 or 50 degrees with him... FOUND THE PROBLEM! Pulls the trigger, lets it FREE RECOIL, "Like You See In The Movies With Big Guns" he says... He was a BIG guy too!

January 24, 2016, 09:44 PM	#10
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	I can't make any promises I've come close, Didn't see the firearm do the issue, or even fire. Just covering the things it's most likely to be... Tight chambers and dirty ammo can cause the same issue, so will rusted chambers. Too much force expended yanking the case to throw it. You Usually see a really deep rim extraction gouge when that happens since it takes so much force to get the case out of the chamber... Old/Weak ammo can do the same thing... I saw a guy locally that the case just spun in the air just right of the ejection port and fell to the ground about 2 feet away. Turned out to be VERY old ammo (like WW II surplus) that was corroded. New ammo cycled like a champ and threw cases like it was supposed to do. Considerably more recoil with the new ammo...

January 24, 2016, 09:47 PM	#11
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	I took the slide off and noticed the extractor won't hold an unfired round in place. It has a LCI that has to be depressed but there's still some wiggle in there. Perhaps it's time for a new extractor. Also, CZ updated their ejector to a longer design sometime around 2013. Mine is just a little nub, not exactly confidence inspiring.

January 25, 2016, 08:20 AM	#12
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	That's a solid Ejector! 'BOUT TIME! Ask any of the guys will little curved, dinky pieces of stamped metal what they think of their ejectors... Right after they have 'Issues'... Or like I had, a 'Fold Away' ejector, every time you leaned the frame forward before the slide was fully installed, the ejector folded down... Weak spring in the extractor? They are usually pretty easy to find, most are common size. Might just be crud build up. Don't ask me how it happens, but carbon/crud LOVE to get into that spring hole and plug things up...