Carrying 1911 in condition 2

[kenny53]

I use to carry condition 2 and felt good about it. I now carry condition 1. My 1911 is IWB and the holster protects the safety so I don't worry about it being bumped off safe.

We should all carry in the condition we feel comfortable with.
When I first started to carry I did not put a round in the chamber my Glock. As I grew accustom to carrying and thought about how the gun it only made sense carry with one in the chamber. With the 1911 there are two safeties the must be disengaged to fire. I feel safe with the design. Just think about the mechanics of your firearm and see how it works and I would bet one in the chamber will make sense.

[JoeSixpack]

Get to know your gun internally.. You'll see pretty much any handgun built in the last 30-40 years are extremely safe from a handling point.. except for the rare mechanical failure guns (particularly handguns) do not just go off assuming you didn't just stuff it in your waist band like an idiot.

I carry my hi-point c9 with 1 in the pipe and let me tell you I carry that when I'm doing dirty jobs and it gets beat to hell.

Im not trying to push anyone outside their comfort zone, do what works for you.. but what I am saying is get to know your gun better and you'll probably trust it enough to carry in a more ready condition.

[TunnelRat]

The Israeli method of carry is a leftover from carrying pistols without firing pin blocks. It's outdated and unnecessary in the majority of cases. As for, "It's almost as fast", how close is almost? 1.5 seconds is almost as fast as 1 second, but I can tell you in watching people draw it seems a lot longer when a person has a 0.5 second head start. It also makes the assumption that you always have two hands for the pistol, or at the least easy access to a surface you can use to rack the pistol.

[44 AMP]

Why does everyone frown on carrying in condition 2?

Short answer, because it gets you nothing in the way of additional safety with the gun, and "slows down" your ability to shoot.

And welcome to the internet where a lot of folks will tell you that if you don't carry the way they recommend, you're going to DIE!!!!

Carry your gun any dang way you feel comfortable with. If it causes an ND (and what AD isn't actually an ND??) write us and tell us what happened, and why. IF you get in a gunfight, and your chosen manner of carry results in you being hurt, write us, and tell us why.

If your chosen manner of carry gets you killed ...walk it off...then write us and tell us why.

I suggest that you ignore the military's rules of carry when it comes to your personal safety. Pointing out what the Army (or any branch) did in the beginning, and what they do now, is interesting history, but its a red herring argument when it comes to how one should carry one's personal pistol.

The reasons for this are glaringly obvious, but somehow always seem to get overlooked when someone advocates for the military rules of carry being the right, (and the only right) way to carry.

I'll hit the high points, for those who haven't thought about them...

#1) The military does not put as high a priority on your personal safety as you or I do.

#2) Military carry rules are intended and developed to give the greatest "protection" to the military as a whole, NOT the individual soldier.

#3) Personal self defense and combat are NOT the same thing. There are some points in common, but they are not the same thing.

#4) Today's attitudes about what is, and isn't safe are different from the past, and different from what the military considers most important.

The rub comes in because there is no "clear and authoritative" set of rules. Different organizations have different rules. The designer's intent is a moot point.

First off, because no one has ever found any written instructions for how JM Browning intended the pistol to be operated. We can only infer what he intended, and from his pre-1911 prototypes, he didn't think the thumb safety was needed. And, it doesn't matter, anyway, because while Browning was a genius designer, he wasn't what today is called "an operator". In other words, he wasn't a soldier who would be using the gun in combat, so his perspective on what was needed and useful was different.

It was the Cavalry that insisted on the thumb safety (known then as the safety lock), and yes, the concern was controlling the pistol and an unruly horse. Specifically mentioned was the risk of a discharge when re-holstering the cocked pistol. The grip safety provided no protection for that.

The 1911 was new tech, and high tech for the time when it was introduced, and for some time afterwards. It's been reported that George S. Patton had an ND/AD with a 1911 in the early days, and went back to and stuck with his revolvers afterwards.

Remember that the Army is not dealing with one trained, competent person, they are dealing with thousands (tens of thousands or more during war) of barely trained young men who often lack adult supervision (NCO and up...), and sometimes even that supervision is inadequate.

Military service, war, combat, has often been described as 99% boredom, 1% terror (or 95/5 or something similar). The point is that when bored, young men find ways to amuse themselves, and that includes playing with their weapons. This is the reason the Army went to the chamber empty at all times (except in actual combat) rule. NOT for the safety of the soldier carrying the pistol, for the safety of the Army as a whole, to reduce the numbers of AD/ND incidents.

People stress on how lowering the hammer by hand cannot be safely done. Those of us with decades of experience and practice feel differently about ourselves. And, I think, with good reason. However, when you are talking about large numbers of people, its pretty much a given that somebody in that group will screw up.

There is no "idiot proof" pistol. There cannot be.

[Bill DeShivs]

If you train for Condition 2, it's perfectly safe. Cocking the hammer is easily done as you draw.
The 1911 wasn't "designed" to be carried in condition 1, BTW. It was designed to be carried condition 2.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by chaim

Apparently Condition 2 is how the military first required soldiers to carry the 1911. However, the original design and today's designs are different.

The most recent Army field manual for the M1911A1 still calls for "usually" keeping the pistol in Condition 2. But it also says that "when action is imminent" to cock it and set the safety.

Military use is different from civilian concealed carry. In the military, when you are on a post you are surrounded by other people who have guns, and you don't expect to be attacked at any instant. (Granted, that's perhaps not a safe assumption in Afghanistan, where every so-called "friendly" may be a one-man sleeper cell, but the M1911A1 field manual was written before we went into Afghanistan.) The whole point of civilian concealed carry is that we don't know when "action is imminent," so we have to assume that it's always imminent. Muggers don't call ahead to make appointments.

That's why we carry in Condition 1. And I don't view that as inconsistent with the military usage.

That said, if I really really didn't want to carry in Condition 1, I would carry in Condition 3. That way I don't risk losing control of the hammer trying to lower it "safely" on a live round, and IMHO Israeli draw is as fast as trying to thumb cock the hammer, and much more reliable.

[spacemanspiff]

But in my video games it sounds SUPER cool when I press X to activate super slow mode and then press Y to draw my gun from its holster and everything goes like really quiet in the game so you can hear every little detail as the gun comes out and the slide gets racked and then its BOOOOM BOOOOM BOOOOM BOOOM BOOOM BOOOOM BOOOOM BOOOOM and since its still in slow mode the muzzle blasts are all like fire-y and explode-y and then I get the achievement "Be a super bad**s".

OK, maybe that was a little too much tongue in cheek here, but the point is, I am not a weapons expert trained in Israeli carry methods. I highly doubt any of us are. And if there happens to be one or two, thats amazing and awesome. But its not worth the risk to me to carry a 1911 without a round in the chamber. Life isnt like the video games or movies. The gunfight you find yourself in will be over before you know it and if you are wasting your time racking the slide before you can level it against your attacker, there is a very good chance that you will find yourself laying on the ground leaking fluids.

[hdwhit]

I think someone carrying should carry in the condition they are comfortable having the gun and the train for using it from that condition.

[WVsig]

Originally Posted by hdwhit

I think someone carrying should carry in the condition they are comfortable having the gun and the train for using it from that condition.

So if I am comfortable with it I should carry a Sig P226 in SA with no safety riding in the my pants in the small of my back? Sorry there are right ways and wrong ways to carry a pistol. Some are down right dangerous like my absurd example above others are just not very smart.

If you are not carrying a 1911 cocked and locked throwing or using it as a club against your oncoming attacker should be part of your training because if you ever need it there is a good chance you will not be at the ready in time. The do what your a comfortable stance is a cop out. IMHO

[OldMarksman]

The earliest Army manuals that I have been able to find have specified when the 1911 was to be carried in Condition 3, and when in Condition 1.

They have all said that the gun was not to be carried with the hammer down with a round in the chamber.

[BigJimP]

Condition 1 ...is how a 1911 should be carried.../ condition 2 with a round under the hammer has some inherent issues that I don't like.

( I carry in condition 1, train in condition 1....).

[JJ45]

Jeff Cooper's opinion was that if you follow the 4 rules of firearm safety a mechanical safety is superfluous and unnecessary even in Condition 1. IF none of the rules are violated then he was correct.

But in the world of "big ifs" this has to be the biggest ...he didn't actually recommend a 1911 without a thumb safety catch. Just trying to emphasize a point.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Endless debate. It's all trigger pull and your finger.

A cocked 1911, safety off
A Glock
A Revolver

What is the difference? Trigger pull and your finger.

BTW, all have generated NDs when the finger is on the trigger.

So these threads are a yawn except for historical information about gun design and the cavalry.

They are like the endless I can't shoot a Glock because of the grip angle. Now who's fault is that. If you can't shoot a 1911 or a Glock decently - look the mirror. If you can't handle your gun safely - look in the mirror.

I can shoot either decently and carry the Glock or the 1911 in Condition 1 and feel just as safe with either guns and with a modicum of accuracy. I even shoot a SW Model 19 decently.

[RickB]

Someone commented that it's easy to cock on the draw, and I found a video of a guy doing so, but couldn't really tell WHEN he was cocking?
Is it done when the gun is in the holster, before the hand closes on the butt of the gun?
I've tried to cock a hammer after grasping the gun, and while it's possible with a spur hammer and G.I. grip safety, it's all but impossible with a rowel hammer and beavertail, and certainly not possible in either case with the gun held in a "firing grip", which is the first step in a conventional draw.

[WVsig]

Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer

Endless debate. It's all trigger pull and your finger.

A cocked 1911, safety off
A Glock
A Revolver

What is the difference? Trigger pull and your finger.

BTW, all have generated NDs when the finger is on the trigger.

So these threads are a yawn except for historical information about gun design and the cavalry.

They are like the endless I can't shoot a Glock because of the grip angle. Now who's fault is that. If you can't shoot a 1911 or a Glock decently - look the mirror. If you can't handle your gun safely - look in the mirror.

I can shoot either decently and carry the Glock or the 1911 in Condition 1 and feel just as safe with either guns and with a modicum of accuracy. I even shoot a SW Model 19 decently.

Sorry but IMHO that is completely missing the point. The OP is advocating a carry of condition that is not optimal for the platform he has chosen to discuss. Others have point out why that is the case. He and others who are advocating for another condition besides Condition 1 cannot offer anything beyond "its almost as fast", "the Israelis do it", "carry what you are comfortable with" or they want to quote an irrelevant manual that does not really apply to modern civilian handgun shooting in a self defense situation.

Lots of things happen to go right for you in a self defense situation for you to the to the point where you get to pull the trigger. A highly respected trainer once told me don't train stupid stuff. KH used a different S word but I think you get the point. I personally think it applies to the OP. Don't train and don't advocate for stupid STUFF.

[dahermit]

The US Army, particularly the horse Cavalry were familiar with thumb cocking their Colt SAA's, and did not consider it dangerous.

SAA's are not 1911's. A 1911's grip shape is not conducive to cocking the hammer with one's thumb whereas a SAA's grip shape is.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I was referring to the general tendency of discussing the various conditons of carrying a 1911 and expanding on it. It is clear that Condition 1 or 0 (even) is the way a competent gun user would carry the gun.

Would you want a thumb safety on an eight pound trigger 1911?

[Slamfire]

I tried uploading pages from my 1913 Small Arms Manual. This is as early as I have found to bolster my claims of "original" intent on the carry of the M1911 pistol. Firstly was the directions on how to load, which was to rack the slide and put the safety on. Then, if you were going to holster the pistol, you took the safety lock off and lowered the hammer. Then you put it in your flap holster.

MG Hatcher knew Mr. John Browning, and in his book "Text Book of Pistols and Revolvers" claimed the safest way to carry a M1911 was with a round in the chamber and the hammer down.

There are some differences between the military, and the quick draw McGraw expectations of civilians. We have been taught, through tens of thousands of hours of watching movies and TV shows, the "Big Man" concept of history. We expect the Big Man, standing alone, against the evil hordes, to overcome them with his lighting fast reactions, and quick reloads. Anyone remember the Walk and Draw era where everyone knew that the man who cleared leather first always won the gun fight? I still see this in modern Western Movies. The good guy, the bad, guy, walk down the middle of the street, and the first one to clear leather always wins. Self defense classes and self defense "games" reinforce this. One of the bad tactics taught is running through a room of armed men in an attempt to clear them all before the timer goes off. That is incidentally, a great way to get killed.

I talked to a Veteran of Iraqi/Afghanistan about his experiences reloading his M4, and whether he could quickly reload, and the guy said "you don't understand, I have 16 other men in my squad". He was right, I did not understand. While he is removing his magazine, he has 16 guys around him, almost all of them with fully loaded weapons, and they are going to eliminate any threat to a member of the squad, without having to be asked!

I did not ask, but I assume instead of running through a room of armed men, he would have tossed a grenade or two in that room. Or maybe, stood back and shot an AT-4 from 100 yards away and let that rattle the rafters. And in a worse case scenario, called in the friendly skies. I think they still use Napalm, don't they? Ever heard the joke "What comes out of a forest fire?" "Crispy critters!"

Anyway, when the M1911 was the service pistol, you loaded it as you were told, you carried it as you were told, and once you got into combat, you were not going to walk down the middle of anything and try to out draw someone in a classic Western style gunfight.

And I don't trust the M1911 safety, and I sure don't trust the extended and ambi safeties out there to be "On", when I expect them to be "On", nor do I trust them to be "Off" when I expect them to be "Off". Sometimes they are "On" when you expect them to be "Off", and sometimes they are "Off", when you expect them to be "On". And that is the greatest concern I have about carrying a M1911 cocked and locked. It might just be, cocked.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer

Would you want a thumb safety on an eight pound trigger 1911?

The U.S. Ordnance Department did. If I remember correctly, the standard for the mil-spec trigger was 5-1/2 to 6-1/2 pounds. Not exactly a hair trigger, but the cavalry wanted a thumb safety so that a cocked ready pistol held by a mounted horseman could be made safe with one hand until such time as he could free up both hands to return the pistol to what we today refer to as Condition 3.

That's why the thumb safety is there. Browning's 1910 prototype didn't have a thumb safety.

[WVsig]

Originally Posted by Slamfire

I tried uploading pages from my 1913 Small Arms Manual. This is as early as I have found to bolster my claims of "original" intent on the carry of the M1911 pistol. Firstly was the directions on how to load, which was to rack the slide and put the safety on. Then, if you were going to holster the pistol, you took the safety lock off and lowered the hammer. Then you put it in your flap holster.

MG Hatcher knew Mr. John Browning, and in his book "Text Book of Pistols and Revolvers" claimed the safest way to carry a M1911 was with a round in the chamber and the hammer down.

There are some differences between the military, and the quick draw McGraw expectations of civilians. We have been taught, through tens of thousands of hours of watching movies and TV shows, the "Big Man" concept of history. We expect the Big Man, standing alone, against the evil hordes, to overcome them with his lighting fast reactions, and quick reloads. Anyone remember the Walk and Draw era where everyone knew that the man who cleared leather first always won the gun fight? I still see this in modern Western Movies. The good guy, the bad, guy, walk down the middle of the street, and the first one to clear leather always wins. Self defense classes and self defense "games" reinforce this. One of the bad tactics taught is running through a room of armed men in an attempt to clear them all before the timer goes off. That is incidentally, a great way to get killed.

I talked to a Veteran of Iraqi/Afghanistan about his experiences reloading his M4, and whether he could quickly reload, and the guy said "you don't understand, I have 16 other men in my squad". He was right, I did not understand. While he is removing his magazine, he has 16 guys around him, almost all of them with fully loaded weapons, and they are going to eliminate any threat to a member of the squad, without having to be asked!

I did not ask, but I assume instead of running through a room of armed men, he would have tossed a grenade or two in that room. Or maybe, stood back and shot an AT-4 from 100 yards away and let that rattle the rafters. And in a worse case scenario, called in the friendly skies. I think they still use Napalm, don't they? Ever heard the joke "What comes out of a forest fire?" "Crispy critters!"

Anyway, when the M1911 was the service pistol, you loaded it as you were told, you carried it as you were told, and once you got into combat, you were not going to walk down the middle of anything and try to out draw someone in a classic Western style gunfight.

And I don't trust the M1911 safety, and I sure don't trust the extended and ambi safeties out there to be "On", when I expect them to be "On", nor do I trust them to be "Off" when I expect them to be "Off". Sometimes they are "On" when you expect them to be "Off", and sometimes they are "Off", when you expect them to be "On". And that is the greatest concern I have about carrying a M1911 cocked and locked. It might just be, cocked.

Am not sure what the point of that post was. The Army manual from 1913 has ZERO relevance to the modern 1911 and the concealed carry defensive pistol environment most of us work in. What a Vet did in combat does not really apply because as you alluded to the pistol is a secondary at best at worst a weapon of last resort. What the 1911 did or did not do as a service pistol is not relevant to this discussion. IMHO. If you can't tell when your safety is on or off you are better off carrying a different platform.

Your hyperbole is amusing. No one is stating that one should be a western style quick draw artist. What people are saying is that the real world scenario where a civilian will use a gun in self defense are under the following criteria.

1. They occur in low or no light conditions

2. Usually in a 1-10 yard distance

3. Typically face 1-3 bad guys

4. Number of shots fired

a. Shooting (only one person firing a gun) 1-3 shots

b. Gunfight (people shooting back at you) you shoot until your gun is empty.
70% of gun usages are shootings not gunfights.

Also a large % of shootings are done with strong hand only while point shooting. Most people are startled and do not get their strong hand on the gun or their sights aligned with their eyes on the target. They draw strong handed and point shoot because the attacker is already on them.

The biggest take away from this for this discussion is low light and 1-10 yards. The tueller drill time and time again tells us that when we know a treat is imminent we only have 1-2 seconds to draw and fire a gun. When we do not know a threat is imminent we have less time.

It is not that people want to be trick draw artists it is that in the "Real world" you if you have to use your gun it will most likely be in a low light condition, you will be startled and or surprised and you will have 1-2 seconds to draw and engage because you attacker will be within 10 yards of you. Your ad hominem about "big men" has no baring on the discussion. We aren't talking about movies we are talking about the "real world".

Please explain to me how the Army field manual of 1913 is relevant to this scenario.

[WVsig]

Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer

I was referring to the general tendency of discussing the various conditons of carrying a 1911 and expanding on it. It is clear that Condition 1 or 0 (even) is the way a competent gun user would carry the gun.

Would you want a thumb safety on an eight pound trigger 1911?

Some people carry BHPs. LOL

[TunnelRat]

Self defense classes and self defense "games" reinforce this. One of the bad tactics taught is running through a room of armed men in an attempt to clear them all before the timer goes off. That is incidentally, a great way to get killed.

I haven't taken a self defense course yet that has taught me to run through a room of armed men. Competition and self defense can have some overlap, but it's often a lot less than people credit. For that matter, a competition that encourages the behavior you mention would be idiotic. Speed does matter whether you like it or not. Assuming you'll have the time and/or dexterity to thumb cock a pistol in a close encounter is foolhardy, imo.

As for the random aside about combat versus not, you seem to contradict yourself. You use the Army manual from 1913 as a baseline, but then proceed to point out, correctly, that combat and self defense are very different tasks most of the time. I don't have a squad or a platoon to cover me and I'm not on a base surrounded by armed guards. More importantly, there is no wire or frontline where I know the enemy to be. There is far less redundancy in my system than in a military unit and to an extent much more uncertainty, and those are some reasons why time is essential.

[Bill DeShivs]

The manuals were brought up because someone said the 1911 was designed to be carried in Condition 1. It was not. Threads drift.
I said that condition 2 can be as-or almost as fast as Condition 2. And it is-if you train that way. Decocking a 1911 is easy and safe.
There is nothing wrong with carrying in Condition one (or condition 2.)

[JoeSixpack]

Kinda surprised the manual would want you to carry hammer down on a live round didn't the original design lack a firing pin block? wouldn't a sharp blow to the hammer cause the firing pin to strike and ignite the primer?

[Bill DeShivs]

No, it will not. The firing pin is an inertial type.