usefulness of "AR-pistols"

[HiBC]

As far as the helzer,...I don't need to say anything.

As far as an AR Pistol,I do not have one,but I give it a "Maybe"

Where I live,only a handgun may be carried as a concealed weapon.

At this point,and,IMO,for the foreseeable future,an AR pistol is not what I will
have under my coat.Life is good here.

But there are places and situations ....

For just "range toy" I got to shoot a 10 in legit,registered ,9mm AR SBR that uses UZI mags. It had a mini red dot on it.

It was fun,laid out a lot of accurate,controllable fire(up close)...

And the 100 packs of WalMart WW whitebox 9mm are pretty cheap shooting.

But....nah.Priorities!! Limited resources.

[simonrichter]

Hey, thanks for the interesting replies!

Yes, I was more referring to Heizer and similar stuff...

I would consider all the other stuff more as carbines or SMG, just taking away the shoulder stock doesn't make them "pistols" in my opinion, even if they are in legal terms.

And yes, a 10" barrel DOES make sense. Ballistics by the inch rates a .223 out of a 7" barrel with around 600 ft/lbs, that IS considerably more punch than a usual handgun caliber

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by simonrichter

Yes, I was more referring to Heizer and similar stuff...

OK, thanks for clearing that up. Those aren't AR pistols, no matter what bogus names the companies give them. An AR pistol is an AR-15 that is built without a stock and with a short barrel and therefore is legally classified as a pistol. The point is to have a short-barreled AR-15 that gets around the SBR laws.

[Skans]

I really want a Heizer PAK1 and PAR1. I want them in stainless. But, I want to buy them cheap from someone who already had fun with them and are looking to recover about 75% of what they paid.

Why? As interesting novelty pistols and because I'd like to see what it feels like to shoot 7.52x39 and 5.56 from a tiny pistol.

[P5 Guy]

I guess handloading rounds with a faster powder that burns before the bullet leaves the muzzle would make sense?

[ShootistPRS]

P5 Guy said "I guess handloading rounds with a faster powder that burns before the bullet leaves the muzzle would make sense?"

No, if you load a fast enough powder to eliminate the muzzle flash you will lose most of your velocity. The flash that you see is super heated carbon left over from the powder burning. It is not "unburned" or "burning" powder. It is there because the gases generated by the burning powder have not yet cooled. It is simply heat that has not been used to accelerate the bullet.

The short barrel will give up enough velocity and switching to a faster powder will lose much more velocity. All the powder in the cartridge is burned in the first few inches of the bore. If you look at the pressure time curve you recognize that the powder is burned at the peak pressure point. From that point on it is the pressure of the heat that continues to accelerate the bullet.

[MarkCO]

Yes, you can load faster powders to perform better in shorter barrels, but you will still be far behind the longer barrels.

And yes, there IS powder that burns after it leaves the barrel in all kinds of firearms. Only the fastest pistol powders burn in a few inches of barrel. High speed cameras do not lie.

[Sevens]

The very genuine danger in attempting to use a "faster burning powder" in .223 brass (no matter if your barrel length is 3" or 24") is that you have way too much space to get yourself in to trouble with when you goof with a powder that reaches peak pressure too quickly.

Is it possible to launch a 55gr bullet from a .223 cartridge case with a 3" to 24" barrel using a fast burning pistol powder? Totally! But if you end up using 20-25 grains of a fast burning pistol powder (which is what a .223 will hold) you absolutely will grenade the firearm.

Not "might", not "could", but WILL.

So you would need to approach such a venture with caution and you'd likely have more success with the completely silly/useless Heizer than you ever would with a gas-op AR pistol or SBR.

And you better start and keep in mind the buggest pitfall of starting low... and sticking bullets.

[Ghostpepper5K]

Greetings. This is my first post here. I think I need to make 5 posts before I can start throwing up my noob reloading questions.

Anyhow, I have one shorty - an Adams Arms 7.5" gas piston pistol. I did a lot of research before buying this one. Opinions will vary, but the AA is considered one of the best of the GP 7.5" shorties and does not exhibit some of the aforementioned characteristics.

The Troy Medieval muzzle brake does a nice job of keeping the gasses forward. It's not like my La Rue at 100 yards, but I can hit the paper. It is definitely a CQB gun.

[drobs]

I kind of wanted the 7.62x39 Heizer pistol. Then did some youtubing on them and it turns out they don't function very well with steel cased ammo.

[Targa]

I saw that as well but as little as I would shoot it I would just pony up the extra dough for some quality brass cased ammo.

[FrankenMauser]

How much "function" do you really need in a single-shot derringer?

[turkeestalker]

I guess handloading rounds with a faster powder that burns before the bullet leaves the muzzle would make sense?

Looking at the photo, that would adversely affect its usefulness to start a fire when you're out of matches!

Seriously, who am I to judge? I certainly own firearms that serve no real useful purpose, simply for their coolativity and fun factor in my eyes.

Those don't look like much fun to me though.

[rep1954]

I think at self defense distances a 11 1/2" AR15 pistol is much more useful than a a carbine or a rifle and depending on your skill level a honest 100 yard gun. At least more usable and more accurate than a 6" revolver that puts out 900 foot pounds of energy. I like to use a 3 point hold, hand guard, grip, and a cheek weld on the buffer tube. A 11 1/2" barreled gun has a iron sight distance the same as a carbine. The worst thing about AR15 pistols is people who have no experience with them or the wrong kind. A AR15 pistol is no match for a 20 inch open sight barreled rifle at 600 yards but then again neither is a carbine.

[dontcatchmany]

I got one of these a couple of years ago:

http://www.guns.com/review/gun-revie...-pistol-video/

It is loud and has a flash but, hell, I lost most of my hearing in Vietnam many years ago

I have shot it one handed easily with a 30 round magazine, but not with the 100 round magazine. It mostly rides in my truck.

Approximately 1,000 rounds through it and and proves to be extremely accurate out to 100 yds (bench rest) and I have not shot it beyond that so far. First shots at a target were dead center at 20ish yards. Never a hiccup.

No, it will not fit in my pocket, but it conceals nicely behind my truck's passenger seat....no arm brace is needed.

Is it a novelty/toy....yes, But it does have purpose to me for self defense.

[dgludwig]

Might be OK for home defense and close quarter use, but really about as practical as a lever action mares leg.

Well said, Rembrandt- both are about as useless as teats on a boar hog. But I will concede that they have a high "cool" factor.

[P5 Guy]

How does one hold these 'pistols'?

[dgludwig]

Kind of like you hold a lever-action "Mares Leg"...

[ATN082268]

Originally Posted by dontcatchmany

I got one of these a couple of years ago:

http://www.guns.com/review/gun-revie...-pistol-video/

It is loud and has a flash but, hell, I lost most of my hearing in Vietnam many years ago

I have shot it one handed easily with a 30 round magazine, but not with the 100 round magazine. It mostly rides in my truck.

Approximately 1,000 rounds through it and and proves to be extremely accurate out to 100 yds (bench rest) and I have not shot it beyond that so far. First shots at a target were dead center at 20ish yards. Never a hiccup.

No, it will not fit in my pocket, but it conceals nicely behind my truck's passenger seat....no arm brace is needed.

Is it a novelty/toy....yes, But it does have purpose to me for self defense.

For concealed carry

[AK103K]

Well said, Rembrandt- both are about as useless as teats on a boar hog.

One may be, the other, not so much. If you shoot one, you understand. If youre guessing, you dont.

Kind of like you hold a lever-action "Mares Leg"...

Not necessarily. You can shoulder the buffer tube, thats not been a legal issue as of yet. Its easily done and not at all uncomfortable.

Technically, youre not supposed to shoulder the braces, do or dont, thats up to you. If you do, it somehow magically propels you into the NFA. If you dont shoulder it, your OK. Either way, the brace does make a difference.

I can shoot my AK pistols at 100+ yards with no trouble at all and with basically the same results as my 16" guns.

Personally, I see little use for a Mares Leg, and would consider that a "toy". The AR's are really more of a rifle than a pistol, and if "pistol" is what makes them acceptable, by all means, call it a pistol.

This is one of my PSA guns. With the suppressor mounted, its a tad shorter than my 16" guns, and as you can see, shoots pretty good at longer distances for a "pistol".

[weblance]

Originally Posted by rep1954

I think at self defense distances an AR15 pistol is much more useful than a carbine or a rifle, and depending on your skill level, an honest 100 yard gun. I like to use a 3 point hold, hand guard, grip, and a cheek weld on the buffer tube. The worst thing about AR15 pistols is people who have no experience with them

I absolutely agree. I edited your text a bit to bring it in line with my feelings on the AR Pistol. Below are mine...

[rep1954]

How does one hold these 'pistols'?

I use a 3 point hold. One on the hand guard, one on the grip, and a cheek weld on the buffer tube. I wonder how many nay sayers have actually shot a AR15 pistol?

[aarondhgraham]

They are the Mare's Leg of modern firearms,,,
Cute as all get-out and fun to shoot,,,
But that's about it.

Aarond

.

[AK103K]

They are cute and fun to shoot, but they are much more than that.

For those who say that they arent, what experience with them makes you say so?

[DMK]

AR15 "pistols" handle nothing like a Mares-Leg. For one thing, the 5.56 AR-15 has nearly negligible recoil.

I shoot mine with a two point sling just like a rifle, except that I don't shoulder it. I push the forearm out away from me and pull the pistol grip back. I put the buffer tube up to my cheek just like you would with a rifle, nose to charging handle for a consistent cheek weld.

I have the sling adjusted so that when I push the forearm out away from me it pulls tight around my back and keeps consistent tension. The side mounted sling on my handguard and front sight both act as a hand stop. I can actually wrap the sling around my forearm and pull it tight using the hasty sling method since my barrel is free floated.

Using iron sights or the red dot, I can ring steel gongs at 100y all day long. I can't do that with my 9mm sidearm. Not nearly as effortlessly.