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Old February 17, 2011, 11:33 PM   #1
shooter1911
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45 ACP Crimp

Are you guys using a taper crimp on 230gr ball ammo or no crimp at all? I have been using a slight TC with 5.2gr of 231 for range loads, and 6.3gr of Unique for 230gr golden sabers, but some say there is no reason to crimp 45ACP loads at all. Your opinions would be welcome.
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Old February 17, 2011, 11:37 PM   #2
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taper crimp, Because the manuals say to do so. I use the Lee Factory Crimp die as a separate step.

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Old February 18, 2011, 12:28 AM   #3
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Compared to magnum cartridges like the .357 and .44 Mag, there is no reason to roll crimp the .45 ACP to prevent bullet pull on recoil. There is also no reason to roll crimp the .45 ACP as it headspaces on the case mouth and this effectively "buries" the mouth of the case.

And, as most reloaders set up their equipment to create a slight "bell" to help in seating the bullet without crumpling the case, you need something to remove this bell. This is generally referred to as a "taper crimp", because there are dies designed with a gradual decreasing diameter or taper. I believe it is common practice to adjust the die so it just removes the bell. There is no need to try to crimp the case into the bullet.

If you have your equipment set up and can seat bullets without creating a bell, I suppose there is no reason to use a taper crimp to remove it.
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Old February 19, 2011, 12:41 AM   #4
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Quote:
taper crimp, Because the manuals say to do so.
true

Quote:
there is no reason to roll crimp the .45 ACP to prevent bullet pull on recoil.
also true

Quote:
There is also no reason to roll crimp the .45 ACP as it headspaces on the case mouth and this effectively "buries" the mouth of the case.
What do you mean "buries"?

Quote:
There is no need to try to crimp the case into the bullet.
Yes there is. Many seasoned 45 ACP target shooters discovered that by applying a slight roll crimp, their velocities became more consistent, and they got higher scores.

When you shoot lead, you have to bell.
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Old February 19, 2011, 03:35 AM   #5
dmazur
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Sierra Bullets has a series of pages on their site, and one of them covers crimping -

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/re...sics/crimp.cfm

This covers the basics of taper vs. roll crimping. Not every possible reason for a variation in technique.

By "buries", I was trying (and failing) to describe what I've seen when someone applied a heavy roll crimp to a .45 ACP case...the case mouth is buried in the bullet. The edges are gone, not available for headspacing.

I'll admit I've never tried roll crimping .45 ACP, but I'm not too old to learn something new.
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Old February 19, 2011, 05:27 AM   #6
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dmazur

When using lead bullets with a taper crimp, if the die is set to apply too much crimp, the mouth of the case will be “squeezed” into the lead. Then, while the bullet is still going down, the case shaves into, or digs under, or “buries” into the bullet.

Although technically the 45 ACP headspaces off the case mouth, as cases get shorter or are slightly roll crimped, they actually are gripped by the ejector and are held against the face of the slide for firing.
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Old February 19, 2011, 06:53 AM   #7
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.469--.470", you mean?
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Old February 19, 2011, 07:17 AM   #8
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I use enough taper crimp to remove the bell left by the expanding die and not much more, if any.

If loading .45acp for a light revolver using heavy bullets a roll crimp might be needed.
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Old February 20, 2011, 12:20 AM   #9
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shooter 1911,

I've taper crimp .45 ACP bullets since Hector was a pup. I seat my bullets so the case headspaces on the bullet. A light taper crimp is all that is needed. Works like a champ out of my Commander.
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Old February 20, 2011, 03:10 AM   #10
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When taper crimping lead bullets it should be done as a separate step. For that matter with any bullet. The last step done, using a Taper Crimp die only....... Viola! No lead or copper shaving, COL problems, etc.
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Old February 20, 2011, 11:23 AM   #11
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I seat my bullets so the case head spaces on the bullet.

BigBob, what does this mean.
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Old February 20, 2011, 12:02 PM   #12
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Quote:
I seat my bullets so the case head spaces on the bullet

What???????????? The case head is the back end of the case!

Please explain.


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Old February 20, 2011, 03:20 PM   #13
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In MHO, the term "crimp" is misleading when talking about the 45 ACP. I use a taper crimp die, not to crimp the case, but to straighten out the flared case mouth. I do not need a "crimp" to hold the bullet in place, neck tension does that. On second thought, I do not crimp my 45 ACP ammo. I de-flare the case mouth...
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Old February 20, 2011, 03:35 PM   #14
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I don't bother with any sort of crimp with my LRN 45's. Feeds fine in my Glock. None of the factory FMJ I've bought have a crimp.

Now my 9mm is a whole other animal. If I don't use a FCD, my CZ won't get past two rounds.
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Old February 20, 2011, 05:05 PM   #15
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Jim243,
The answer to your question is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headspace_%28firearms%29
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Old February 20, 2011, 05:59 PM   #16
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To clarify, "headspace" is usually one word. I think you maybe caused confusion with the character space between "head" and "space" in your previous post.

I agree about headspacing lead on the bullet though. It has significantly accuracy advantage with every lead bullet load I've tried. It also seems to reduce leading. It doesn't seem to do much for jacketed bullets, but I suspect a lot of those are unseated by the primer before the powder gets up to speed, so they wind up fitting themselves to the throat. Lead bullets aren't hard enough to do that without distorting.

Headspacing on the extractor of 1911's is common. Many are loose enough and long enough in the chamber to do that. Headspacing on the case mouth was Browning's intention, but some think as few a 30% of 1911's actually do that before the extractor hook gets hold of the rim to become the defactor headspace determinant. I can't speak to the other makes.

If you go back and look at the roll-crimped rounds used by the old time match shooters (and a few modern ones), they generally allow the leading edge of the lead bullet to protrude beyond the case mouth at least 0.020" and often more. That means the cartridge actually headspaces on the bullet when it finds the throat, so the case never goes deep enough to jam the case mouth into the throat. The roll crimp does increase start pressure and consistency, but wears your cases out faster.

The taper crimp, set to dig just slightly into a lead bullet, will still leave enough mouth width for case mouth headspacing with most case brands, assuming the chamber's extractor hook doesn't stop cartridge forward insertion first. It does protect against a lubricated lead bullets getting pushed into the case (setback) while going up the loading ramp, though. That's not usually a concern with unlubed jacketed bullets because of their higher friction with brass.

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Old February 20, 2011, 06:07 PM   #17
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Quote:
When taper crimping lead bullets it should be done as a separate step. For that matter with any bullet. The last step done, using a Taper Crimp die only....... Viola! No lead or copper shaving, COL problems, etc.
Hmmm. This is news to me. I guess I have been doing it all wrong.

If you have your 3rd die set up properly you can seat/ crimp in one stage without any issues. If you try to overcrimp you will get lead or copper shavings.
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Old February 20, 2011, 08:40 PM   #18
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I think the who term crimp when it applies to the taper crimp die is a misnomer,you not actually crimping anything. The whole purpose of the taper crimp die is to remove the flair on the case mouth so it feeds and headspaces correctly.

Bullet tension on cases that headspace on the case mouth is determined by the resizing die,expander ball,case thickness and bullet diameter. I set up my taper crimp die using a FL resize case with no flair measure the case mouth dia. with a set of calipers run it up into the taper crimp die and measure again. both measurements should be the same or no more than .002 smaller.

I set up my built in taper or roll crimp dies to seat and crimp on the same stroke,done it that way for 30 years shooting lead,plated and jacketed bullets with no issue.
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Old February 20, 2011, 08:59 PM   #19
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I manage to crimp and seat my 45 auto and my 44 mag without a 4th die. My 45 is a very slight crimp and I cast my own and I don't have any issues with razor burn. I also apply a heavy crimp on my 44 mag and .444 without any shaving issues. Yest it takes a minute to set up right but it works.
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Old February 21, 2011, 08:45 PM   #20
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Res45,

I'll respectfully disagree where lubricated lead bullets are concerned. What you describe is fine for jacketed bullets, but lubricated lead can sometimes be pushed deeper into a case by thumb pressure alone. Particularly if the case brand is one with thinner walls, like R-P. In that instance you want the top end of the taper to just slightly bite into the lead to help prevent setback into the case when the slide slams the round into the feed ramp and around the corner into the chamber. It doesn't need to be much. A couple thousandths makes quite a difference. As long as the case mouth doesn't get below minimum mouth OD spec it will still be able to headspace on the mouth (though I normally headspace lead bullets on the bullet finding the throat rather than on the case mouth; accuracy is improved and leading is reduced by this practice and it renders case mouth OD irrelevant).

The main reason for separate crimping is accuracy. When the separate crimp dies started showing up in 70's, a number of match shooters compared rounds crimped by the seating die crimp groove to those crimped separately and found the latter performed more consistently. It got to the point that if they used a round no commercial crimp dies was made for, they'd buy a second seater and pull out the seating stem and use that for crimping (this was mainly revolver shooters).

I don't know the reason for the above being true other than maybe it lets the cartridge center in the crimp ring better if a seating stem doesn't have hold of the bullet nose. Maybe it also is less prone to building up crud in the seater.
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Old February 21, 2011, 10:43 PM   #21
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Any time you can seat and crimp separately, you will have more uniform rounds. Dillon Precision dies only come that way...and for a reason. Now does that translate to more points in a match? Thats pretty hard to quantify. But I've only been trying for 25 years.
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Old February 21, 2011, 11:52 PM   #22
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I have never been able to push a lead bullet back into the case by finger pressure alone. I guess we can all do it our own ways and RESPECTFULLY (I really like this term...2 thumbs up to you UncleNick) agree to disagree!
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Old February 22, 2011, 01:32 AM   #23
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Taper crimp with pistol rounds.

Roll crimp with revolver rounds.

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Old February 22, 2011, 09:14 AM   #24
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Jim243,

The .45 ACP headspaces on the mouth of the case to the face of the case. That's all well and good if all your cases are the same length and that length is .898". I've found that very few .45 ACP cases are that S.A.A.M.I. spesified length. So I make my loads fit the pistol, pretty much the same thing we do with rifle, only its much easier to do with the pistol case.

1) Remove the barrel from the weapon. This is our gage to headspace.
For purpose of education, slip a few cases into the chamber. Hold the
barrel vertical. Your gage is the back of the barrel shroud. Where does
the face of the case come in relation to the back of that shroud. If the
head of the case is lower than the shourd your case is to short. If the
If the case sticks up longer than the shroud your case is to
long and you may have trouble going into battery.

2) Now adjust your seatting die, seat a bullet into the case.
slip the case into the barrel and verify that the face of the
case is the same length as the shroud. You may not get the
bullets outof the case, so use old cases and resize them.
seat about four cases and verify their length with a bullet seated.


3) Set your crimping die a little longer and and crimp one case, then
try it in barrel again. Does the crimping die actually crimp the case?
And is the headspace still correct? If The case is to long again this is
caused by the crimp being excessice. Back it out a 1/4 of a turn and
try it again with a third case.

That is all that it takes. Before you jump in and load a bunch of cases.
try those four cases in your magazines. Pull the slide back and release it.
do the feed OK. Do they strip from the magazine.

It sounds like a lot of work, but it isn't really. It also seems to help with the accuracy department as well.
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Old February 22, 2011, 09:24 AM   #25
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Please excxuse the double post. I must have a little tired and my fat fingers were running hog wild.
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