Explination difference in dies?

Jerry45 · February 11, 2011, 05:49 PM

Can someone explain the difference in these two dies? I know what a Collet is just don't understand the difference in the two dies and why the $20.00 difference in price. Also which would be the better of the two.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=329661

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=184277

dlb435 · February 11, 2011, 05:55 PM

Sure, one is a Lee die and the other is RCBS. Lee comes with a two year warrenty, the RCBS is lifetime. You get what you pay for.

Jerry45 · February 11, 2011, 06:05 PM

Well I’m batting 1000. First I put a post in the wrong forum, now didn’t read well enough. I put in RCBS and got both Lee and RCBS and just didn’t notice the big LEE right in front of my face.

Thanks, for the reply. That explains everything.

jepp2 · February 11, 2011, 07:38 PM

Realize that the Lee collet die works differently than the RCBS neck size die.

The collet die has "fingers" that squeeze the neck of the case against a mandrel.

The neck size die reduces the neck of the case, then the expander passes through and correctly sizes the ID of the neck.

The collet die can result in better accuracy and less cold working of the neck which can lead to neck splits.

I own Lee, RCBS, Lyman, Redding, and Dillon sizing dies. In some applications Lee work better than any other. So while their are some Lee bashers around, I look for functionality that meets my needs. Sometimes it is Lee, other times others.

DaleA · February 11, 2011, 07:40 PM

Well Jerry45 once I achieve perfection in my own life (yeah, any day now) I'll get on the case of everyone else that makes a mistake. Till then I'm letting it slide and hoping to get the same in return.

Brian Pfleuger · February 11, 2011, 07:48 PM

You sure do get what you pay for...

The Lee Collet die is almost universally considered one of the best neck sizing dies money can buy, at any price, so far as the quality of ammo that it creates.

It's also very easy to use, hard to screw up if you can (and do) read directions and completely eliminates the need for lubing the case.

wncchester · February 11, 2011, 09:26 PM

"The Lee Collet die is almost universally considered one of the best neck sizing dies money can buy, at any price, so far as the quality of ammo that it creates."

Peet, I strongly disagree. The Lee collet is THE BEST neck die for factory chambers available, at any price. After I got my first one all of my old RCBS, etc, neck dies were immediately retired as fast as I could collect Lee collet replacements. I prefer them to any bushing type neck die too.

The Lee has one moving part, the collet, so some people have problems with it. Those who aren't willing to read and follow instructions, think a little and maybe experiment a bit should probably stick with more basic "push the case in, pull the case out" type dies tho.

Jerry45 · February 11, 2011, 09:29 PM

I use Lee taper crimp dies on .45 ACP, 9 mm. and 4570 and love them. I read the revues on both the .223 and 30/06 neck sizing dies. Most of the reviews are good but the few bad ones are really bad. Knowing how some people don’t read/follow directions I'm hoping that’s the case with the bad reviews. Two really worry me.

Quote:

This die takes a tremendous amount of pressure to get the neck tension I need. I actually broke my Lee classic turret press trying to get the neck tension so where I could not push or pull the bullet in the case with my fingers.

Quote:

My die exploded while sizing my first round, the aluminum cap blew off the top of die shearing off the threads of the cap. Lee says to use up to 25 lbs of force I was not able to get close to the 25 lbs before the die gave way.

jimbob86 · February 11, 2011, 09:37 PM

I have loaded far more .270 WIN rounds with my Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die than any other die ..... less work on me, less work on the brass..... Win/Win!

Brian Pfleuger · February 11, 2011, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry45

I use Lee taper crimp dies on .45 ACP, 9 mm. and 4570 and love them. I read the revues on both the .223 and 30/06 neck sizing dies. Most of the reviews are good but the few bad ones a really bad. Knowing how some people don’t read/follow directions I hoping that’s the case with the bad reviews. Two really worry me.

Jerry, those are perfect examples of people who don't read directions.

I use the Lee Collet dies for .204 Ruger, .22-250 and 7mm-08. It couldn't be simpler. I'm really not sure how people manage to screw it up.

Jerry45 · February 11, 2011, 10:06 PM

I like the idea of de-priming and neck size with no need fore lube. I think I’ll take a chance

and order one of each, .223 and 30/06.

PawPaw · February 11, 2011, 10:16 PM

I'm a Lee user and I admit that I had problems the first time I used the collet die. A simple re-read of the instructions fixed that problem.

The Factory Crimp Die (FCD) is a must-have for cast bullet shooting in rifle calibers. Especially in lever guns. Every serious cast bullet shooter I know has at least a couple FCDs in their die boxes. I don't crimp bullets for my bolt rifles, but for cast bullets in lever calibers, the FCD is a wonderful invention.

I don't have anything against the other die manufacturers, and I'd probably happily use the others if I owned them. Lee work for me, and I'll continue to use what works.

Jerry45 · February 11, 2011, 10:33 PM

Hey, PawPaw, another Paw Paw here. That’s what the grand kids call me. Good to see another Louisiana boy(?) here. Thanks for the post.

BigJakeJ1s · February 11, 2011, 11:08 PM

Polish the collet/closer interface, and replace the lock ring with one that works, and the Lee collet neck dies are good to go. The only reason I go to that much trouble on a die is because once done, it works really well. The design principle is excellent, but unfortunately the execution is lacking, in terms of material choice and quality control of machining/finishing. Same goes for collet-type factory crimp dies for rifle and bottleneck pistol cartridges.

Andy

Jerry45 · February 11, 2011, 11:30 PM

I was thinking of drilling and tapping the locking ring and inserting a piece of shot and Allen set screw like RCBS does. Polishing the collet/closer interface doesn’t sound like a bad idea either. Thank you.

flyboyjake · February 12, 2011, 04:02 AM

sorry if this is considered a thread hijack...

Lee produces some excellent stuff, and while I havent had any notable problems with their customer service (I broke a number of decapper pins which they proclaim are unbreakable, but they wanted me to send them the broken pin for me to get a new one. I have no issues with this), RCPS is unmatched in my oppinion for CS, even Dillon takes a bench to them in my oppinion... Heck, I bought a turret press from cabellas bargain cave for $65 that was a display model. It was obvious from its condition that it had been there (or on display) for years... it was missing lots of stuff, but I figured I could buy it from RCBS and still save a bunch of $ over new. I called RCBS and they shipped everything it was missing for free. When it got to me, there was a hole in the package and some stuff fell out. I called them back and demanded they let me pay for it to be sent again. They ignored my demands and sent the parts a second time free of charge. So when you say "you get what you pay for" this is true, but it should suggest NOTHING of the quality of product that LEE produces.

Sport45 · February 12, 2011, 04:52 AM

Quote:

I was thinking of drilling and tapping the locking ring and inserting a piece of shot and Allen set screw like RCBS does.

I don't think the Lee lock rings have enough "meat" for you to do this. The recess for the o-ring doesn't leave a lot of thickness for threads. I've never had any problems with the Lee lock rings anyway.

The Lee lock rings cost about 1/3 of what other locking rings sell for. If you want to positively lock them to a die you could double them up. Snug the lock rings together (with the o-rings in the middle) and they shouldn't move without a wrench.

flyboyjake · February 12, 2011, 07:31 AM

would be a shame to ruin the lee lock rings. For accuracy rifle shooting, concentricity has been touted as a significant factor in accuracy. One of the tricks to achieving this was to put an o-ring under the lock ring of your die to allow it to "self adjust" with the ram stroke. This is precisely what the lee dies can do right from the factory. If you turn the die in to the press by gripping the lock ring and not the die, you wont have any issues with its setting changing.

steve4102 · February 12, 2011, 08:29 AM

Quote:

and order one of each, .223 and 30/06.

As already stated the Lee Collet die is an excellent choice in a Neck sizing die, you should be pleased with your purchase. At some point you will have to FL size your brass and bump the shoulder back. I use the Redding "Body" die for this as it does not contact the neck.

223? This isn't for an AR or other semi-auto is it?? If so, forget the Neck die, they are bad Juju in semi-autos.

Jerry45 · February 12, 2011, 01:58 PM

Steve, the .223 this die will be used for is my wife’s bolt gun. I have an AR but the ammo for the bolt gun will not be fired in the AR. The AR stuff gets full-length and crimped.

Sport and Flyboy, I hadn't looked really closely at the collar on my Lee FCD dies so I didn’t realize there wasn’t enough meat. The one’s I have are in Dillon tool heads so once adjusted and locked I haven’t had to take them in or out. Since the neck sizing dies will be used in a single stage I really didn’t/don’t want to have to re-adjust ever time I reload. The RCBS dies locking rings are locked in, I just spin them in and out of the press.

Flyboy, I tried using my Lee 45/70 FCD in the single stage. The lock ring turns VERY easily and the two times I put it in and took it out the die turned in the ring. It’s now locked into a Dillon tool head and I crimp using the Dillon.

Sport, double-nuting sound like the ticket. I'll order extra rings.

wncchester · February 12, 2011, 05:58 PM

"This die takes a tremendous amount of pressure to get the neck tension I need. I actually broke my Lee classic turret press trying to get the neck tension so where I could not push or pull the bullet in the case with my fingers."

Jerry, anyone saying that hasn't a clue how that die works, fergit him.
Get the die and read the instructions. Do it right and you won't duplicate his foolishess.

Jerry45 · February 12, 2011, 06:55 PM

When I read it I took it at face value. After thinking about it I can’t see how more pressure would be needed to neck size than to FL size a case. Not having used one of these dies I can’t speak form experience but would think it would take less pressure to just neck size if the die is set correctly.

Brian Pfleuger · February 12, 2011, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry45

Not having used one of these dies I can’t speak form experience but would think it would take less pressure to just neck size if the die is set correctly.

It takes little pressure indeed. In fact, I do it twice on every case.

Thanks to a tip from UncleNick, I hold each case under pressure for a count of 5, then lower the ram enough to turn the case 180dg and do it again. The count of 5 gives the brass time to "relax" a bit, and it does affect the final size, and the two runs through the die with a 180dg turn ensure the most concentric necks possible.

You'll definitely want to polish the collet and interior surface of the die. The 3 that I have were not really bad at all, but Clark has posted some pictures of some of his and the surfaces were AWFUL.

Jerry45 · February 12, 2011, 09:15 PM

Good tip that I will remember and use.

flyboyjake · February 13, 2011, 01:57 AM

When I followed the instructions for the LEE neck size die, I had some issues with getting the neck sized properly. It seems I wasn't able to press don't on the press ram hard enough to lift the collet high enough around the mandrel. The neck was still too big, and had hardly any tension. While some people actually have problems doing it the way I do, I have found this to solve my issues. I adjusted the die so that at its full stroke, it was just slightly cammed over. That last bit of MASSIVE force was what it took to do the job. I do let it sit at the top of the stroke for a moment too, but I have no need to run it twice.

So I agree to the fact that it does take a bit of force to use a neck sizing die, but achimedes solved that for us with the leverage our presses can exert.

February 11, 2011, 05:49 PM	#1
Jerry45 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Metairie, Louisiana Posts: 890	Explination difference in dies? Can someone explain the difference in these two dies? I know what a Collet is just don't understand the difference in the two dies and why the $20.00 difference in price. Also which would be the better of the two. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=329661 http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=184277 __________________ Guns are not dangerous! People are! RKBA!

February 11, 2011, 06:05 PM	#3
Jerry45 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Metairie, Louisiana Posts: 890	Well I’m batting 1000. First I put a post in the wrong forum, now didn’t read well enough. I put in RCBS and got both Lee and RCBS and just didn’t notice the big LEE right in front of my face. Thanks, for the reply. That explains everything. __________________ Guns are not dangerous! People are! RKBA!

February 11, 2011, 07:48 PM	#6
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	You sure do get what you pay for... The Lee Collet die is almost universally considered one of the best neck sizing dies money can buy, at any price, so far as the quality of ammo that it creates. It's also very easy to use, hard to screw up if you can (and do) read directions and completely eliminates the need for lubing the case. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

February 11, 2011, 10:06 PM	#11
Jerry45 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Metairie, Louisiana Posts: 890	I like the idea of de-priming and neck size with no need fore lube. I think I’ll take a chance and order one of each, .223 and 30/06. __________________ Guns are not dangerous! People are! RKBA!

February 11, 2011, 10:16 PM	#12
PawPaw Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2010 Location: Central Louisiana Posts: 3,137	I'm a Lee user and I admit that I had problems the first time I used the collet die. A simple re-read of the instructions fixed that problem. The Factory Crimp Die (FCD) is a must-have for cast bullet shooting in rifle calibers. Especially in lever guns. Every serious cast bullet shooter I know has at least a couple FCDs in their die boxes. I don't crimp bullets for my bolt rifles, but for cast bullets in lever calibers, the FCD is a wonderful invention. I don't have anything against the other die manufacturers, and I'd probably happily use the others if I owned them. Lee work for me, and I'll continue to use what works. __________________ Dennis Dezendorf http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com

February 11, 2011, 05:55 PM	#2
dlb435 Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Posts: 654	Sure, one is a Lee die and the other is RCBS. Lee comes with a two year warrenty, the RCBS is lifetime. You get what you pay for.

February 11, 2011, 07:38 PM	#4
jepp2 Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Loveland, CO Posts: 1,476	Realize that the Lee collet die works differently than the RCBS neck size die. The collet die has "fingers" that squeeze the neck of the case against a mandrel. The neck size die reduces the neck of the case, then the expander passes through and correctly sizes the ID of the neck. The collet die can result in better accuracy and less cold working of the neck which can lead to neck splits. I own Lee, RCBS, Lyman, Redding, and Dillon sizing dies. In some applications Lee work better than any other. So while their are some Lee bashers around, I look for functionality that meets my needs. Sometimes it is Lee, other times others.

February 11, 2011, 07:40 PM	#5
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,313	Well Jerry45 once I achieve perfection in my own life (yeah, any day now) I'll get on the case of everyone else that makes a mistake. Till then I'm letting it slide and hoping to get the same in return.

February 11, 2011, 09:26 PM	#7
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"The Lee Collet die is almost universally considered one of the best neck sizing dies money can buy, at any price, so far as the quality of ammo that it creates." Peet, I strongly disagree. The Lee collet is THE BEST neck die for factory chambers available, at any price. After I got my first one all of my old RCBS, etc, neck dies were immediately retired as fast as I could collect Lee collet replacements. I prefer them to any bushing type neck die too. The Lee has one moving part, the collet, so some people have problems with it. Those who aren't willing to read and follow instructions, think a little and maybe experiment a bit should probably stick with more basic "push the case in, pull the case out" type dies tho.

February 11, 2011, 09:37 PM	#9
jimbob86 Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: All the way to NEBRASKA Posts: 8,722	I have loaded far more .270 WIN rounds with my Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die than any other die ..... less work on me, less work on the brass..... Win/Win!

February 11, 2011, 10:33 PM	#13
Jerry45 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Metairie, Louisiana Posts: 890	Hey, PawPaw, another Paw Paw here. That’s what the grand kids call me. Good to see another Louisiana boy(?) here. Thanks for the post. __________________ Guns are not dangerous! People are! RKBA!

February 11, 2011, 11:08 PM	#14
BigJakeJ1s Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2005 Location: Arlington TX Posts: 663	Polish the collet/closer interface, and replace the lock ring with one that works, and the Lee collet neck dies are good to go. The only reason I go to that much trouble on a die is because once done, it works really well. The design principle is excellent, but unfortunately the execution is lacking, in terms of material choice and quality control of machining/finishing. Same goes for collet-type factory crimp dies for rifle and bottleneck pistol cartridges. Andy

February 11, 2011, 11:30 PM	#15
Jerry45 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Metairie, Louisiana Posts: 890	I was thinking of drilling and tapping the locking ring and inserting a piece of shot and Allen set screw like RCBS does. Polishing the collet/closer interface doesn’t sound like a bad idea either. Thank you. __________________ Guns are not dangerous! People are! RKBA!

February 12, 2011, 04:02 AM	#16
flyboyjake Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2010 Posts: 135	sorry if this is considered a thread hijack... Lee produces some excellent stuff, and while I havent had any notable problems with their customer service (I broke a number of decapper pins which they proclaim are unbreakable, but they wanted me to send them the broken pin for me to get a new one. I have no issues with this), RCPS is unmatched in my oppinion for CS, even Dillon takes a bench to them in my oppinion... Heck, I bought a turret press from cabellas bargain cave for $65 that was a display model. It was obvious from its condition that it had been there (or on display) for years... it was missing lots of stuff, but I figured I could buy it from RCBS and still save a bunch of $ over new. I called RCBS and they shipped everything it was missing for free. When it got to me, there was a hole in the package and some stuff fell out. I called them back and demanded they let me pay for it to be sent again. They ignored my demands and sent the parts a second time free of charge. So when you say "you get what you pay for" this is true, but it should suggest NOTHING of the quality of product that LEE produces.

February 12, 2011, 07:31 AM	#18
flyboyjake Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2010 Posts: 135	would be a shame to ruin the lee lock rings. For accuracy rifle shooting, concentricity has been touted as a significant factor in accuracy. One of the tricks to achieving this was to put an o-ring under the lock ring of your die to allow it to "self adjust" with the ram stroke. This is precisely what the lee dies can do right from the factory. If you turn the die in to the press by gripping the lock ring and not the die, you wont have any issues with its setting changing.

February 12, 2011, 01:58 PM	#20
Jerry45 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Metairie, Louisiana Posts: 890	Steve, the .223 this die will be used for is my wife’s bolt gun. I have an AR but the ammo for the bolt gun will not be fired in the AR. The AR stuff gets full-length and crimped. Sport and Flyboy, I hadn't looked really closely at the collar on my Lee FCD dies so I didn’t realize there wasn’t enough meat. The one’s I have are in Dillon tool heads so once adjusted and locked I haven’t had to take them in or out. Since the neck sizing dies will be used in a single stage I really didn’t/don’t want to have to re-adjust ever time I reload. The RCBS dies locking rings are locked in, I just spin them in and out of the press. Flyboy, I tried using my Lee 45/70 FCD in the single stage. The lock ring turns VERY easily and the two times I put it in and took it out the die turned in the ring. It’s now locked into a Dillon tool head and I crimp using the Dillon. Sport, double-nuting sound like the ticket. I'll order extra rings. __________________ Guns are not dangerous! People are! RKBA!

February 12, 2011, 05:58 PM	#21
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"This die takes a tremendous amount of pressure to get the neck tension I need. I actually broke my Lee classic turret press trying to get the neck tension so where I could not push or pull the bullet in the case with my fingers." Jerry, anyone saying that hasn't a clue how that die works, fergit him. Get the die and read the instructions. Do it right and you won't duplicate his foolishess.

February 12, 2011, 06:55 PM	#22
Jerry45 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Metairie, Louisiana Posts: 890	When I read it I took it at face value. After thinking about it I can’t see how more pressure would be needed to neck size than to FL size a case. Not having used one of these dies I can’t speak form experience but would think it would take less pressure to just neck size if the die is set correctly. __________________ Guns are not dangerous! People are! RKBA!

February 12, 2011, 09:15 PM	#24
Jerry45 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Metairie, Louisiana Posts: 890	Good tip that I will remember and use. __________________ Guns are not dangerous! People are! RKBA!

February 13, 2011, 01:57 AM	#25
flyboyjake Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2010 Posts: 135	When I followed the instructions for the LEE neck size die, I had some issues with getting the neck sized properly. It seems I wasn't able to press don't on the press ram hard enough to lift the collet high enough around the mandrel. The neck was still too big, and had hardly any tension. While some people actually have problems doing it the way I do, I have found this to solve my issues. I adjusted the die so that at its full stroke, it was just slightly cammed over. That last bit of MASSIVE force was what it took to do the job. I do let it sit at the top of the stroke for a moment too, but I have no need to run it twice. So I agree to the fact that it does take a bit of force to use a neck sizing die, but achimedes solved that for us with the leverage our presses can exert.