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Old August 7, 2019, 10:56 AM   #51
Aguila Blanca
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Originally Posted by briandg
The columbine bombs were, iirc, incapable of exploding off of the timer/detonator that they had put in place. A tank full of propane contains no oxygen and hence cannot blow up. the only thing that it can do is to be released into an oxygen rich environment. If a valve is popped or a hole punched in it and the gas catches fire, there will be nothing but a large torch, depending on how much LP is escaping. Propane will only explode when it is gasified and held in an oxygen rich environment at a concentration that is high enough to sustain combustion.The other way of doing it would be to set the thing to burst somehow, flood the area with propane gas, and have a timed spark emitter. Set it up with a bunch of lighted candles concealed somewhere and an electronic device that will open the valve? I can think of several ways to do so.
The fact that the Columbine attackers were lousy bomb makers does not change the fact that the propane bombs were supposed to be their primary weapons. They resorted to firearms when the bombs failed to detonate. It is speculation that the bombs would have caused hundreds of casualties if they had gone off, but I have yet to see any credible source that argues against that speculation.

The point being that, if we take away guns, people who want to kill other people will just become better bomb makers.
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Old August 7, 2019, 11:13 AM   #52
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The fact that the Columbine attackers were lousy bomb makers does not change the fact that the propane bombs were supposed to be their primary weapons. They resorted to firearms when the bombs failed to detonate.
That is not what I said there. I know, agree, and have constantly read that the plan was to blow the building and then shoot them as the fire drill sent them outside.

The mexican casino fire kille fifty or so people, and that was just a handful of guys with big gas cans. Bombs aren't the only way to cause mayhem. In fact they may be the poorest idea. Many of the mass killings that I have read of would have been far more lethal if different methods had been used, but the people who engage in mass killings are not interested in body count so much as doing it in their chosen maner.

I feel kind of shaky discussing these things. The author of the anarchist's cookbook, which those two criminals owned and read. died in mental anguish over creating it.. He spent years doing public service to attone.
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Old August 7, 2019, 11:58 AM   #53
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The point being that, if we take away guns, people who want to kill other people will just become better bomb makers.
I wish more people (especially the politician breed) understood this little bit of truth.
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Old August 7, 2019, 12:15 PM   #54
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Or maybe just drive through crowds.


Did you know that some states don't allow you to pump your own gasoline? I know that most of the reasoning is for environmental concerns but other concerns are that people can't be trusted to handle pointy things or flammable fluids. This law is unlikely to stop a guy from taking a five gallon jerry can to the mall with him.
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Old August 7, 2019, 01:54 PM   #55
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i have been thinking about what i would have done in that situation.....if i had family with me id get them out of the area but id like to think if i was alone id try to do something. I havent read the entire post but what is the general consensus of engaging an active shooter in a parking lot using your own vehicle as the first weapon?
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Old August 7, 2019, 03:05 PM   #56
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The point being that, if we take away guns, people who want to kill other people will just become better bomb makers.
Bingo!
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Old August 7, 2019, 04:14 PM   #57
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Honestly, the first thing I thought when I read your first post:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...6&postcount=21

Was your fear stood out and it read like false bravado trying to convince yourself of something.
Think that all you like. Just as I don’t really know you, anywhere you’ve been, anything you’ve experienced, et al.... well you don’t know me either. I’m not in fear, I’m currently in my living room typing online. What I was discussing if someone overcomes their fear and feels a conviction to intervene, then “i might get sued” or “it’s not my job” should not be a thought or inhibition. Yet those thoughts are constantly thrown around here. Those thoughts are appropriate if you’re present during a gas station robbery and there’s about a 99% chance the dude will take the money and run without harming anyone. They are not appropriate if someone is killing kids indiscriminately in Walmart.


Funny how everyone at TFL cheered Stephen Williford, who engaged the Sutherland Springs shooter. Yet if anyone mentions responding in a similar manner, hypothetically and if they feel they may be convicted to, it’s scoffed at by “oh but the cops will definitely come and mistake you as the shooter” or a million other hypotheticals. Are all of those possibilities? Yeah, very well could be. Does it pass an operational risk analysis... as in a risk worth taking to save lives? Maybe, depends on who you are and, where you are, the situation, and even what frame of mind you were in when you woke up that morning. My point is that people at least analyze it and don’t shut down automatically because “you’ll get sued” or “you’ll shoot your eye out kid” or whatever other dumb excuse.
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Old August 7, 2019, 05:39 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by 5whiskey
Funny how everyone at TFL cheered Stephen Williford, who engaged the Sutherland Springs shooter. Yet if anyone mentions responding in a similar manner, hypothetically and if they feel they may be convicted to, it’s scoffed at by “oh but the cops will definitely come and mistake you as the shooter” or a million other hypotheticals.
But Williford was armed with a scoped AR-15, and when he engaged the shooter there was nobody else even close to the line of fire. And the shooter wasn't in active shooter mode at that moment.

That's a totally different scenario from someone armed with a handgun -- very likely some type of compact or even subcompact handgun -- trying to engage an active shooter with people milling about everywhere.
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Old August 7, 2019, 07:28 PM   #59
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Engage an active, rifle toting, possibly body armed individual with a concealed pistol alone? Only if there is no other viable options. Even those of you who are the best trained in this group I would not give 50/50 odds to. Mine are noticeably less. Look you don’t know how competent the individual is, how determined said attacker is, if there is body armor, if there are other attackers present, or a great number of factors. You engage because there is no other acceptable alternative. If I engage such an attacker and my actions allow my wife and children to escape to safety the outcome beyond that is not incredibly vital.

I noted before it is not outside the realm of possibility to stop such an attacker or to survive should you fail. However there is a very good chance you meet the Valkyries as well.
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Old August 8, 2019, 11:48 AM   #60
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There is a mass shooter taking innocent lives, you’ve heard several shots fired and the shooting continues. You have a firearm, and could possibly save lives by acting quickly. You could also be shot first. You are not obligated to do anything, legally, but as a decent human being with an ounce of bravery do you at least try!?
I get what you are saying. And at one point in my life I was right there where you are at, asking the same question.

My thinking changed once I had a family to care and provide for.

As for human decency, well lets just say I gave up believing humans are inherently decent. Yes, there are good people out there. In fact, probably most people are good. And I spent most of my life thinking it was my moral obligation to help other people. Now though, I have become a bit jaded. I know I am not responsible for anyones safety and security but my family. If that makes me less decent of a human being, well I will have to answer for that when I meet my Maker, won't I?
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Old August 8, 2019, 12:01 PM   #61
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If I'm right there (and armed) and can shoot the bastard in the back of the head at point-blank range and he doesn't even see me, I'll do it. very little question about that. It's a vanishingly small probability, but it's not zero. Anything less favorable than that, I'll have to evaluate it at the time in the few seconds I have. Most likely I'll try to escape, while watching for an opportunity while the bad guy is distracted.

I don't run towards the sound of gunfire, that's a good way to get shot by another good guy. Also, when I get there it might not be obvious who the bad guy is. I don't want to shoot a detective who just put the bad guy down, and I don't want to get shot by him/her either.

Also if there is no possible escape, I might do something desperate (like draw against someone who has the drop on me) but I don't know, I might be too scared at the time.
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Old August 8, 2019, 12:28 PM   #62
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Human decency? I've seen too much. The possibility that one person in a mob of 100 people might actually be worth saving is enough reason for me to make an attempt if possible.

Out of the rest of that mob of 100 there may be one or more pedophiles, maybe a few violent offenders of some sort. There are probably a dozen people in any random crowd whom I wouldn't walk across the street to save from a speeding car. Wife beaters, child abusers, Identity thieves, dealers in drugs or guns, anyone who would aid and abet or participate in a heinous crime.


I see people here who are saying that the guy across the street doesn't matter at all and that his survival, no matter who he is, is no concern. That a targeted person is just out of luck because nobody is worth risking your life for. Whatever. That is an individual decision that won't be made until the time comes, no matter what we say in advance.

There are people who believe in fate or whatever, and believe that there are enough worthy people out there to take that chance. The guy in the shooter's crosshairs may be a mad dog killer who should be put down anyway, and he may be a surgeon at a children's cancer hospital. I'm inclined to think that saving a random stranger's life is something that I should do even if there's a pretty high risk involved.

Should we jump into boiling water to save another person's dog? That's just plain stupid. There are vague, wiggly lines between stupid and doing what you believe to be the right thing regardless of risk.
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Old August 8, 2019, 12:39 PM   #63
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Most likely I'll try to escape, while watching for an opportunity while the bad guy is distracted.
Interesting anecdote. I was trying to teach one of my nephews boxing. As we sparred he would attempt to hit me, miss, turn and run. This was getting annoying as we had no actual ring and I told him the next time he turned his hip that much I was going to drop him. I did (hitting someone on a downward angle on the top of the hip as they turn to run tend to drop them). I told him a lesson I have tried to instill in my own children: you either fight or you run. If you are attempting to escape commit all the resources you have to that attempt but do not get distracted from that attempt by worrying about looking for a moment of distraction to change directions.

Fighting in order to create an opportunity to run is slightly different.
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Old August 8, 2019, 01:12 PM   #64
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Although I'm in OK shape and shoot regularly, my first priority for any Active Shooter situation would be to get myself and those I care about the hell out of dodge. If I can't get out, I'd hunker down with my gun at my side. I'm in my mid 50's and searching for an Active Shooter in the hopes of bringing them down would be would be stupid.
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Old August 8, 2019, 01:50 PM   #65
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I like to recall what Babe Ruth said. If you swing at the ball you have a 50% chance of missing, if you don't swing you have a 100% chance.
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Old August 8, 2019, 02:23 PM   #66
briandg
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Not quite a good analogy, but okay.

In active shooter, you actually have about just short of ten or so probable results. Hide and survive, hide and get shot. fight and die, or fight and survive. Run and survive, or get shot in the back.

I think that we should clarify an issue. With all of the talk, there's one thing that seems to be missing.

Our mall is a literal labyrinth. If I heard shots, i'm not sure if I could locate them. So, for sake of discussion, I believe that it was food court, where it probably would be anyway. I just might be looking at a store at the store that's 150 feet away and around the corner. t's a long run from there to food court. The shooter may be far away when I get there, and be armed with a long range firearm. for example, he may have just walked in the front door. What should I do?

There is a great deal of difference between this and most of the other scenarios that come up, it seems. Is a rage shooter going to want to shoot like he's at a gallery, or will he want to do it where he can see the faces as he shoots them?
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Old August 8, 2019, 02:38 PM   #67
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If I heard shots, i'm not sure if I could locate them.
I agree.
Most think that they can immediately find the shooter. But, what if what you find first is another armed citizen that is shooting at the shooter?
What if you shoot him?
Lots to consider in nanoseconds.
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Old August 8, 2019, 02:39 PM   #68
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Interesting anecdote. I was trying to teach one of my nephews boxing. As we sparred he would attempt to hit me, miss, turn and run. This was getting annoying as we had no actual ring and I told him the next time he turned his hip that much I was going to drop him. I did (hitting someone on a downward angle on the top of the hip as they turn to run tend to drop them). I told him a lesson I have tried to instill in my own children: you either fight or you run. If you are attempting to escape commit all the resources you have to that attempt but do not get distracted from that attempt by worrying about looking for a moment of distraction to change directions.
That's a good point. I think what I meant was while looking for an opportunity to escape, don't miss an opportunity to fight back. I agree that once you've started your response you should be committed to it.
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Old August 8, 2019, 04:56 PM   #69
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Do you think you have the skill level and experience to stop a mass shooter event with your CCW pistol?

How about a simulation?:

Set up a helium balloon about 6 feet from the ground at a distance that simulates the scenario under discussion. Next, surround that balloon with 10-15 differently-colored helium balloons at the same height to represent the chaos of others fleeing that you don't want to shoot. Hopefully, there is a breeze to create movement. If not, bring a fan. Can you still hit your target balloon with your CCW pistol and not hit the others?

Too easy? Try again with a stereo blasting music. Many of these shootings have happened at night clubs and there will be a lot of extra noise. Still too easy? include a smoke machine. Visibility is not ideal (I imagine) during these incidents. You will also have hormone-induced tunnel vision. Still too easy? Try it at night. Many of these mass shootings have occurred at night. Still too easy? Increase the stress level by having someone shooting back at you with a rifle (not recommended).

I agree with zxcvbob, if a shooter just happens to materialize in front of you and you have the opportunity for an easy shot then, by all means, take it. If not... get out!
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Old August 8, 2019, 05:33 PM   #70
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I read some really crazy stuff on these subject's. Something few seem to consider. You get into a situation like that and odds are it will be the first time you've ever been in the situation. We can't possibly know what is going to happen at that moment. I believe the thing to keep in mind is preservation of your family and yourself. You start attacking bad guys at long range and you are asking for trouble! Simple as that. You attack a guy with a rifle and same thing, your looking to get shot and for what? Police are paid and, hopefully, trained to take the situation on. You get yourself in the middle of it and they just might shoot you! You want to help people? Help them retreat, live to fight another day!
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Old August 10, 2019, 03:48 PM   #71
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You get into a situation like that and odds are it will be the first time you've ever been in the situation.
you must be kidding. I go through mass shootings every night. I have chronic problems with nightmares.

With all of this experience and training, I'm absolutely certain that I could take down the entire manson family with miniguns.
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Old August 10, 2019, 04:31 PM   #72
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If I'm carrying, which I can't do at work so it's mostly weekends or if I go out in the evening, it's an LCR w/.38+p or a Keltec P32. Maybe sometimes a Shield 9. I don't fancy myself a John Wick stand-in, and I'm not going to take on a AK or AR unless like others said he's RIGHT THERE and I have a clear unobstructed shot, preferably from the back/side, or straight on if I have no other viable option to escape.

Often when my wife and I go to a Walmart we go separate directions with our lists. If the shooting was coming from the part of the store where I knew my wife was, that might change my calculations some.
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Old August 10, 2019, 05:18 PM   #73
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Sorry, but if I am ion the scenario, I am getting me and mine out of harm's way and out of the area. I am not engaging an active shooter.
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Old August 10, 2019, 05:24 PM   #74
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The algorithm of decision in these cases will cover far more bits and bytes than the average stockbroker's programs.

That's an interesting thought. The stakes are about the same. You may make a huge profit, or succeed in your mission with no further casualties.

You might lose everything you have, such as when Enron went down like the titanic. You might go running full speed right into the arms of a man with an AK and take a hit to the chest and becoming just another body to count.

We Americans (some of us at least) expect a police officer to run these algorithms in less than a second, and lets be serious. A stock broker has better intel before he places that $5,000,000 hedge bet on nestles or ford. That stockbroker doesn't have to gamble on whether the pre-teen boy is actually holding a gun, or one carved out of a 2x4 such as dillinger used.

Every time I think or read about these situations, it makes me even more certain that I never want to be put in that spot. My pizza always falls with the cheese side down and if there lightning has struck my home and trees three times.

There's another algorithm. Do we spend $2,000 on a rod system or do we count on insurance?
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Old August 10, 2019, 05:29 PM   #75
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Sorry, but if I am ion the scenario, I am getting me and mine out of harm's way and out of the area. I am not engaging an active shooter.
That is your decision to make, and I can assure you that you will be re-thinking it even as it happens. It's not a decision like braking for a car. You're going to stop. It's going to be closer to braking for a deer. It may be smarter to brake, pull aside, or if you are in crazy wall to wall traffic you may just grit your teeth and say bye-bye to bambie.
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