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Old June 25, 2019, 03:49 PM   #1
AK103K
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Shooting without sights

Just curious how many do this in their regular routine. I do, and think its an important part of your skill set, but Ive heard some derogatory comments when Ive brought it up in the past too.

Always figured the answer there was "no". Woof woof, negative waves, baby!

Just got this video by Gabe Suarez in an email, which led me to bring it up.



He touches on shooting without using your sights and shows just how easy is actually is. And it is pretty easy, if you let it be. :thumb:


And before the "Gabe Hate" begins, this isnt about Gabe, its about learning what I think is an important part of our skill set.
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Old June 25, 2019, 05:39 PM   #2
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I do, and think its an important part of your skill set,
Proper stance, grip, and good application of the remaining fundamentals will take you a long way.

Not using your sights is a great way to check those characteristics. While we did shoot without sights, it was NEVER A PRIMARY technique.

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Old June 25, 2019, 05:46 PM   #3
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If all you practice is sighted shooting, Id say youre not paying attention to the big picture, and just shorting yourself.

Sighted shooting should be your base, but thats also a base for other things, if you allow it and explore them.

It pays to be diverse in your skills.
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Old June 25, 2019, 06:33 PM   #4
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Practicing not using sights is useful.

Planning on not using sights in a gun fight is stupid.
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Old June 25, 2019, 07:05 PM   #5
AK103K
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Originally Posted by davidsog View Post
Practicing not using sights is useful.

Planning on not using sights in a gun fight is stupid.
No doubt, but who said anything about planning on ONLY shooting without sights?

Its just one useful part of a skill set.
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Old June 25, 2019, 07:53 PM   #6
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No doubt, but who said anything about planning on ONLY shooting without sights?
Quote:
Ive heard some derogatory comments when Ive brought it up in the past too.
Implies that shooting without sights is part of someones' plan.......



Practicing not using sights is useful.

Planning on not using sights in a gun fight is stupid.
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Old June 25, 2019, 08:11 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by davidsog View Post
Implies that shooting without sights is part of someones' plan.......



Practicing not using sights is useful.

Planning on not using sights in a gun fight is stupid.
Well, Dusty, dont practice it then, then you wont have to plan on using it.
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Old June 25, 2019, 08:23 PM   #8
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Well, Dusty, dont practice it then, then you wont have to plan on using it.
I think you are just arguing to argue. I have not disagreed with you.


Anyway, practicing is without sights has its place and is useful.
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Old June 25, 2019, 08:28 PM   #9
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I practice shooting over my sights. Not looking through them, but looking over them but still have something of a reference point.
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Old June 25, 2019, 08:50 PM   #10
AK103K
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I think you are just arguing to argue.
Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing about you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hagar View Post
I practice shooting over my sights. Not looking through them, but looking over them but still have something of a reference point.
I shoot that way a lot too. You may not be consciously looking at the sights, but your brain still sees them, or some of the other indexes it gets in practice when you shoot in other ways.

You may not be "aiming", but your brain is, whether youre conscious of it or not.
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Old June 25, 2019, 09:13 PM   #11
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I practice using sights, laser, two handed strong & weak side, one handed strong & weak side, AND also point shooting at 15 feet. Like I've said so many times before...to each their own. I don't care if someone shoots sideways. If they hit what they intend on hitting, kudos to them.
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Old June 26, 2019, 07:37 AM   #12
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When considering lawful self defense, a person should probably not be a stranger to this type of shooting. As far as me personally, its probably 10-15% of what I do in practice. I'm talking stuff from zero to 7 paces.


You don't want to get stuck on the idea that you have to utilize a traditional firing method in every circumstance. Time may not always be on your side in this regard. That said, I am a proponent of using the sights so long as time and circumstances reasonably allow for it.
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Old June 26, 2019, 07:42 AM   #13
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I plan and practice being able to shoot effectively with my gun hip high, waist high, chest high, near my body as well as at a level where I can even see the sights, strong hand, weak hand...

I always thought it's a good idea on planning what you will do when you face sub-optimal situations.

Planning is always good.
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Old June 26, 2019, 07:46 AM   #14
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I plan and practice being able to shoot effectively with my gun hip high, waist high, chest high, near my body as well as at a level where I can even see the sights, strong hand, weak hand...

I always thought it's a good idea on planning what you will do when you face sub-optimal situations.

Planning is always good.
So is it your primary plan to shoot without sights or part of a PACE?? That is the intelligence test.


I never entered a house in the GWOT with my pistol as a primary but I did transition to it a few times.

So, did I plan on using a pistol or should I have just thrown my long gun out the window for all future hits?
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Old June 26, 2019, 08:19 AM   #15
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So is it your primary plan to shoot without sights or part of a PACE?? That is the intelligence test.


I never entered a house in the GWOT with my pistol as a primary but I did transition to it a few times.

So, did I plan on using a pistol or should I have just thrown my long gun out the window for all future hits?

The answer is I try to avoid responding to sophomoric challenges.
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Old June 26, 2019, 08:51 AM   #16
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I think it is a good idea. I've never done it but it definitely has its merits.
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Old June 26, 2019, 08:52 AM   #17
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Proper grip and grips that fit your hand so you can easily find your “natural point” are fundamental to any accuracy as a pistoleros.

“Natural point” means that when you take your stance (proper repeatable stance is another fundamental) you grab your pistol, adjust it slightly to where you feel it’s in the “right” same place, and raise pistol to target- the sights are aligned left to right and the major motion to sight on target is up-down.

Getting this proper grip is important for competition because it reduces the fatigue of aiming, effects of recoil are consistent, and accurate follow up shots are much much quicker.

I’m a big proponent of sanding grips to fit my hand so the natural point is right on from first grabs but that’s not always practical for every grip style.

For me, if I lay my finger along the trigger guard and frame then grip my Bersa Thunder firm, the sights will line up when I initially “engage” my (bullseye) target. Only minor motion needed to get a sight picture. When shopping for a pistol, this is a major factor for me; it’s like finding a good pair of blue jeans.

One night I went to bullseye league and discovered I had left my dot sight on and the battery was dead and I forgot spares. Just eyeballing though the tube I did okay- worst scores of my series but still on the paper. (NRA pistol match, 50 feet indoors).

Left handed is always a fun event. Or switch for lefties.

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Old June 26, 2019, 09:33 AM   #18
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Proper grip and grips that fit your hand so you can easily find your “natural point” are fundamental to any accuracy as a pistoleros.

“Natural point” means that when you take your stance (proper repeatable stance is another fundamental) you grab your pistol, adjust it slightly to where you feel it’s in the “right” same place, and raise pistol to target- the sights are aligned left to right and the major motion to sight on target is up-down.

Getting this proper grip is important for competition because it reduces the fatigue of aiming, effects of recoil are consistent, and accurate follow up shots are much much quicker.

I’m a big proponent of sanding grips to fit my hand so the natural point is right on from first grabs but that’s not always practical for every grip style.

For me, if I lay my finger along the trigger guard and frame then grip my Bersa Thunder firm, the sights will line up when I initially “engage” my (bullseye) target. Only minor motion needed to get a sight picture. When shopping for a pistol, this is a major factor for me; it’s like finding a good pair of blue jeans.
This is the best use of shooting without sights. We did a drill shooting at 2 meters and then 5 meters.

Holster to position 4. two rounds per firing iteration. 1 magazines at each distance to warm up.

Adjusting your stance and grip allows you to see the effect on grouping. Once you dialed in at 2 meters then move out to 5 meters.

Really helps on getting your stance dialed in allowing a good visual representation of the importance of small things like curling your toes in or slight counterpressure with your non-firing thumb and allows you to customize what works for your body.

It shows that it can work in an emergency. I had friend whose AimPoint battery was defective and he lost his primary sight after the first room. He finished the room on his primary.

Lesson's learned from developing that good stance makes things more accurate and faster when you do get on the sights.
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Old June 26, 2019, 09:40 AM   #19
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Missing in so much of most tactics discussion is the appraisal of what we should plan for.

I'm over three quarters of a century old.

None of my pieces parts are what they usta was.

If I ever use a gun in self defense it will almost certainly be relatively up close and personal.

I will not be serving warrants, making traffic stops or arresting felons.

It's highly unlikely I would be making any shots over about 30-50 feet and even shots at 50 feet would be highly unlikely and so not the initial plan.

In my case the plan is if possible to keep an assailant or threat out of grappling distance and if not possible then how best to shoot when really close.

A secondary but essential planning consideration is the physical makeup of my most likely handgun. Since I most often either pocket carry or use a small OWB open carry holster with either a "pocket pistol" or snub nose revolver there are already several less than optimal factors.

Pocket pistols are generally smoothed and rounded so sights are minimal.

Shorter barrels mean a shorter sight radius.

The gun I most likely will have will be a smaller caliber that will be less effective as distances increase.

I am still using the Mark1 eyes with only minor external enhancements.

While I am aware of "worst case scenarios" they are not the focus of my planning, rather I plan for the most likely scenario with a small percentage of practice time devoted to other considerations.

Just as shooting without using the sights is a primary focus, weak hand single handed presentation and shooting is a primary focus tactic.

In an emergency it's very likely that my strong hand and strong side will be busy warding, directing, misdirecting or moving stuff so it is my weak hand that I expect to be essential.

So "Yes Virginia", I do plan on shooting without using sights.
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Old June 26, 2019, 09:52 AM   #20
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Good Luck to you, Virgina, and whoever Dusty is too!!

Some food for thought on reliance upon what we called "the combat fairy". It is were people cut corners and do things because they work OK on a flat range putting holes in paper.

The problem is the combat fairy does not exist and discovering that can have some very harsh consequences.

Understanding your situation, you are absolutely correct in the realization your fight is in the immediate threat zone.

Absolutely correct too in most pocket pistols reach their maximum potential in that space.

Here is real world data on fights in that immediate threat zone with trained officers vs JQ Public:

Quote:
The average officer in static firearms qualifications (non-timed standing and shooting without moving) can hit the 9–10 rings far more often than not from the five yard line. However, research of actual OIS incidents has shown that officers can only accurately hit their moving assailants 14% of the time in life or death situations from distances of only two to 10 feet. On the other hand, assailants were able to successfully engage and hit officers 68% of the time within those same distances. So the psychophysiological components of actual gun fighting play a critical role in an officer’s survivability within relatively close distances.
https://lawofficer.com/exclusive/21footrule/

Last edited by davidsog; June 26, 2019 at 10:01 AM.
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Old June 26, 2019, 10:02 AM   #21
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I think people are wise to practice point shooting in case it has to be used. There is a certain level of planning in that statement, yes - there is a certain amount of planning in practicing any skill. Unless my reading comprehension has taken a serious dive in the last day or so, I don't see where anyone has said that point shooting should be the only way they shoot, only that it should be included in the skill set. I don't see how that is so hard to understand or a cause for argument.
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Old June 26, 2019, 11:31 AM   #22
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Unless my reading comprehension has taken a serious dive in the last day or so, I don't see where anyone has said that point shooting should be the only way they shoot, only that it should be included in the skill set. I don't see how that is so hard to understand or a cause for argument.
Amen.


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Old June 26, 2019, 12:49 PM   #23
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Do not get your training from an Internet video.
"...hip high, waist high..." That is pure Hollywood.
"...strong hand, weak hand..." Is pure shooting games with some Hollywood thrown in.
Point shooting is about looking at the target over the sights. It's very similar to pointing a shotgun. It requires a great deal of concentration to do well. It is not done to try and hit bullseyes or even the black(especially on a bullseye round target) though. It's about hitting the target anywhere.
"...the combat fairy does not exist..." Do too. We call 'em mosquitoes though. Those moose in Northern Ontario are not flying. They're being carried further into the swamps by mosquitoes and black flies. snicker.
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Old June 26, 2019, 12:53 PM   #24
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There are documented cases of people having to shoot from retention positions as well as needing to use the weak hand in the event of injury.

I've noticed in the past a tendency on your part to label just about anything you don't agree with as Hollywood, games, etc, whether it's carrying a spare magazine or here less than ideal shooting positions. Do these appear in entertainment media? Absolutely. Does that mean their realm of use is solely that domain? No, and there are reasons why many reputable trainers with law enforcement or military experience have taught them for decades, often since before they became popular for TV/movies.

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Old June 26, 2019, 01:00 PM   #25
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Unless my reading comprehension has taken a serious dive in the last day or so, I don't see where anyone has said that point shooting should be the only way they shoot, only that it should be included in the skill set.

Folks just are not clear on Primary vs Alternate vs Contingency vs Emergency which makes it confusing for a reader.

Plus they all want to score Internet points being the big dog on the range....Virginia?? Dusty???


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