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Old March 7, 2019, 05:16 PM   #76
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Situational awareness is important but I suspect most violent encounters are very much spur of the moment-no build up or signalling, more like an ambush. An ability to switch gears, to go from Condition White to Condition Red-0 to 60 in 3 seconds flat. I doubt if many of us will ever match Bill Jordan's time, but a fast, smooth fluid draw is a skill worth mastering.
Two things, of course it's a skill worth having. It's also down the line of the tools you need to stay alive.

Actually most violent encounters are not spur of the moment and have plenty of signalling. Most deadly violent encounters involve either family and friends or folks who move in the same social circles, according to FBI figures. It's the cases of "familiarity breeds attempts". It's these shootings that are the most common and also the least trained for or considered.

A gun is the last tool in your toolbox. Not the first. A lot of trainers and schools and scenarios don't don't train for that or discuss it. It's not a good sale. We imagine home invasions and random robbery attempts or stranger rapes and train for that sudden violent attack. But those are rare. The most common you can see it coming and often step right into it.

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Old March 7, 2019, 06:21 PM   #77
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We did the Tueller Drill using a mannequin on a pulley during one of our practical shooting days. One of the fastest guys in the club was pulling the rope. He knows I am pretty quick so he purposely distracted me by asking if I understood the course of fire. The moment I turned my head, he took off. I have pretty quick reflexes so I cleared the holster in just under half a second. I then got off 2 shots in 1 second. I side stepped and took a 3rd shot aiming for the head. All 3 shots were hits and (first 2 went into the shoulder and the 3rd right through the ear). Total time the mannequin moved was about 2.5 seconds. Of course I knew it was a drill and had an open holster so that really helped. I'll still take some credit since all 3 shots were hits and the guy running the drill distracted me. Some of the other guys didn't even clear the holster.
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Old March 7, 2019, 07:06 PM   #78
Bartholomew Roberts
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Some thoughts on the topic from a longtime TFL member...
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/...-wrong-skills/
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Old March 7, 2019, 10:17 PM   #79
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Thanks for posting the article. It provides an interesting perspective. I’m sure we have all seen videos where distraction was used before drawing the gun to engage the target. I’m not sure how fast you guys are, but if you club the speed draw on a drawn gun, you’re probably going to get shot. The article still doesn’t invalidate the importance of being able to draw your gun quickly and smoothly, but emphasizes having other skills as well.
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Old March 7, 2019, 11:29 PM   #80
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The article still doesn’t invalidate the importance of being able to draw your gun quickly and smoothly, but emphasizes having other skills as well.
Some of the comments here have made light of draw speed/ability, but I would never say it’s an invalid skill. You should not try to train to draw on a drawn gun. That was the premise of OPs question, and the answer is a resounding “NO.” That being said, mosT here agree there is a benefit of practicing the draw, with a focus on a smooth and fluid motion. Speed comes. From what I’ve read here, other places, and experienced at the range from my friends; a draw and fire with a COM hit (7 yards ala tueller drill) from concealment or retention is about 1.5 seconds on average with a non-novice but non-competitive shooter. Seeking much quicker is very much a point of diminishing returns, imo. Get there, maintain, then focus more on other aspects of SD.
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Old March 8, 2019, 01:00 AM   #81
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I try not to have to worry about how quick I can draw by already having my gun in my hand.
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Old March 8, 2019, 08:09 AM   #82
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In 40 years of carrying a gun professionally I never worried about a fast draw. I shoot competitively, I carry the same gun in the same place. Everytime I have needed my gun it was there. There are many times when you draw proactively or have a long gun. Your most critical skill is observation.

Proper prior planning prevents poor performance.
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Old March 8, 2019, 05:27 PM   #83
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2damnold4this posted another article in the "Using standards..." thread. In the article the author writes:

"Research has shown that pulling your gun quickly, upon observing a threat, is a great way to get killed. The vast majority of successful engagements occur when we obscure and delay our draw to the most advantageous time, i.e, when the bad guys aren’t looking."

Every situation is different and we can't predict a future uncertain scenario, but it is worth noting that the speed of a quick-draw is widely recognized as a supporting skill and certainly not the one of primary significance. I'll reiterate what's already been written here several times, that skills in smooth and dependable drawing are important, but sheer speed is surely not as important as the best timing of one's draw.
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Old March 8, 2019, 05:45 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Leaf View Post
I try not to have to worry about how quick I can draw by already having my gun in my hand.
How do you do that? Draw early like EJ Bradford? Or do you point a snubbie in your jacket pocket?
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Old March 8, 2019, 06:10 PM   #85
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I think Leaf may be on to something. Just put one of these in your jacket pocket and keep you gun in your hand! Brilliant!

https://www.amazon.com/Surprising-Ar...gateway&sr=8-5
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Old March 8, 2019, 08:41 PM   #86
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You will never draw a gun so fast as to beat someone who is already covering you. Drawing from the drop is a good way to die.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrxPQc9HOF0

Once more, when it happens, it happens fast. Your mental preparedness and situational awareness make a huge difference. I saw people lose their lives in combat due to "suspension of belief"....they simply did not want to process what was happening and believe their life was about to end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4CocUezIkI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQOHBSuY7TM&t=133s
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Old March 8, 2019, 11:04 PM   #87
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How do you do that? Draw early like EJ Bradford? Or do you point a snubbie in your jacket pocket?
Generally the snubbie in the jacket pocket option. But it was more like a High Standard .22 magnum two shot derringer in my Tuffy jacket pocket with my palm firmly attached. Not a particularly reliable firearm as it later turned out but pretty darn small and handy.

I would have really preferred the fake arm rig though. Ain't nobody gonna get the first shot with me wearing that.
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Old March 8, 2019, 11:06 PM   #88
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You should learn to draw and fire as quickly as possible and still do it smoothly and with acceptable accuracy. Better to have and not need. There's no such thing as "drawing too fast."

The concept that the first shot doesn't do anything is BS. In 99.99% of the real life shooting videos I've seen, the bad guy panics and flees the instant somebody starts shooting at him, especially if he's hit. Get the first shot in if at all possible, as well as the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, until the threat is eliminated.

On the internet, everybody is an expert.
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Old March 9, 2019, 02:08 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Ruark
The concept that the first shot doesn't do anything is BS.
It isn’t BS. I’d suggest that if a guy presses an assault AFTER you’ve drawn a gun but flees after you fire a shot (regardless of whether it hits), then the guy probably didn’t see the gun and the loud bang made him aware of it. Alternatively, he may have already decided to flee on recognizing the gun but his OODA loop is lagging yours badly.

The important point is that in the vast majority of scenarios, the effect of the first shot is purely psychological. One side ends the fight because they choose to, not because they are physically incapable of continuing to fight.

There are some important points that derive from this:
1) You don’t have to quit just because you’ve been shot, so don’t let the psychological impact overwhelm your will to win.

2) Firearms and tactics that aren’t effective in stopping fanatical terrorists with suicide vests might still be very effective on thieves and more common threats because of their paychological impact (big boom, big flash, possibly even appearance). Prey deter predators all the time not by looking like they can defeat the predator; but by looking like they can injure the predator as they are being eaten alive.

3) Understand that if you are relying on the psychological impact to be a deterrent, you are putting the choice of whether the conflict continues in your opponents’ hands, not yours. Even if you center punch a guy right in the upper thoracic cavity, unless you hit the central nervous system, all you’ve done is put a near-term expiration date on the fight - you haven’t ended it.

Every day someone wins the dirtbag lottery and has an experience that statistically was very unlikely. There’s a good video in the archives here of a guy with a knife in El Salvador or Nicuragua who is literally surrounded by police armed with pistols and AKs. He was trying to see his girlfriend in a women’s shelter. He decides to have a go and ends up stabbing I think four? or so police officers as they pump rounds into him. You meet the wrong guy on the wrong day and he may not much care that you are carrying your $3,000 Wilson Combat token of invulnerability.
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Old March 9, 2019, 05:17 PM   #90
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It isn’t BS. I’d suggest that if a guy presses an assault AFTER you’ve drawn a gun but flees after you fire a shot (regardless of whether it hits), then the guy probably didn’t see the gun and the loud bang made him aware of it. Alternatively, he may have already decided to flee on recognizing the gun but his OODA loop is lagging yours badly.

The important point is that in the vast majority of scenarios, the effect of the first shot is purely psychological. One side ends the fight because they choose to, not because they are physically incapable of continuing to fight.

There are some important points that derive from this:
1) You don’t have to quit just because you’ve been shot, so don’t let the psychological impact overwhelm your will to win.

2) Firearms and tactics that aren’t effective in stopping fanatical terrorists with suicide vests might still be very effective on thieves and more common threats because of their paychological impact (big boom, big flash, possibly even appearance). Prey deter predators all the time not by looking like they can defeat the predator; but by looking like they can injure the predator as they are being eaten alive.

3) Understand that if you are relying on the psychological impact to be a deterrent, you are putting the choice of whether the conflict continues in your opponents’ hands, not yours. Even if you center punch a guy right in the upper thoracic cavity, unless you hit the central nervous system, all you’ve done is put a near-term expiration date on the fight - you haven’t ended it.

Every day someone wins the dirtbag lottery and has an experience that statistically was very unlikely. There’s a good video in the archives here of a guy with a knife in El Salvador or Nicuragua who is literally surrounded by police armed with pistols and AKs. He was trying to see his girlfriend in a women’s shelter. He decides to have a go and ends up stabbing I think four? or so police officers as they pump rounds into him. You meet the wrong guy on the wrong day and he may not much care that you are carrying your $3,000 Wilson Combat token of invulnerability.
If you shoot them in the face with enough gun, the first shot does wonders.
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Old March 9, 2019, 07:43 PM   #91
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You can tell the guy who was shot under the chin with a 9mm FMJ exiting out the top of his skull. It was about 30 minutes before EMTs showed up and he had wandered around the house some. Accomplished several complex tasks and was awake, alert, and coherent to time, place, and situation when EMTs arrived.

He was moving pretty slow though, so there’s that. I mean, that’s definitely an abnormality but the actual “stop doing that now!” zone is a lot smaller than the face.
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Old March 9, 2019, 10:11 PM   #92
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The actual real effect of a pistol fired at a robber entering a store, with gun in the hand.

All quite, then bang! A 9mm for instance, no one with ear protection... It is loud! And that sound is aimed right at the would-be robber. He/she gets to hear every decibel of it.
They have to know a bullet was in that action somewhere.
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Old March 10, 2019, 06:25 PM   #93
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B.Roberts makes some very good points ( as usual). Unfortunately there are a good many people who's sensibilities surrounding combat are seemingly derived from television and movies.
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Old March 10, 2019, 11:32 PM   #94
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You have to admit that a lot of the problem is also that some people have mistaken good advice, or for that matter, advice from some of the less conservative trainers or you tube heroes.

Mall ninja may have gotten his inspiration from lethal weapon, but you have to admit that a great deal of the craziness that some people have comes from the catalogs, the magazines, the constant barrage of bad advice given by friends and gun dealers.

There is more crazy out there than ever in the history of mankind, I believe. There's no one source. fiction television has had a large role to play. Let's be serious, though, I can get more terrible advice hanging around the gun shops.

I am really mortified by the conditions in america now. there is no limit to the poisonous nonsense that we are exposed to. I had better stop there.
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Old March 11, 2019, 06:21 PM   #95
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That is a fair statement
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Old March 13, 2019, 09:57 AM   #96
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My take on this subject is to shoot as fast as you can shoot with the amount of accuracy required. The issue I see with most shooters including myself is when we try to shoot "fast" we end up shooting faster than we can. This includes our draw stroke, presentation etc...

Here a few videos of some experienced shooters talking about this subject.

Bill Wilson & Ken Hackathorn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAOBFVjLbvM

Rob Leatham

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HgpAhO-uwI
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Old March 13, 2019, 12:49 PM   #97
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My take on this subject is to shoot as fast as you can shoot with the amount of accuracy required.
That succinctly expresses the truth that the recipe for success in a gun fight requires skill, experience, and awareness. Thanks WVsig.
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Old March 13, 2019, 09:06 PM   #98
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You can tell the guy who was shot under the chin with a 9mm FMJ exiting out the top of his skull. It was about 30 minutes before EMTs showed up and he had wandered around the house some. Accomplished several complex tasks and was awake, alert, and coherent to time, place, and situation when EMTs arrived.
Basically what that shows is you want to send at least two slugs moving in that general direction.
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Old March 13, 2019, 09:25 PM   #99
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What it also shows is that the parts of a critter are surprisingly resilient. A bullet works by destroying tissue, nothing more, nothing less can be counted on.

the prime goal is to get a disabling hit. what we see a lot of times in head shots is first, misses, and second, marginal damage or even no damage at all. It's important to remember that if a defender is surprised, the fastest reaction and quickest shot will almost always be to go for the center torso. Big target and probably right there in front of you. There are dozens of different variables and scenarios, but here is a pretty simple fact. It's going to be quicker and easier to make three or even four effective upper torso hits than it would be to get a single round into the brain. For that matter, three or four rounds into the heart/lung region will be more reliable than a miss, or even a weak hit for a head shot.

Keep it simple. Do as much damage as you can. Don't try any fancy shooting or magical thinking, just do the quickest and easiest thing that will do disabling damage.
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Old March 17, 2019, 08:54 PM   #100
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When someone is up very close and trying to kill you, a shot to the individual's heart is not the best option. A bullet through the heart still leaves the assailant with anywhere from ten to fifteen seconds to do what he or she is going to do to you and just like attempting a head shot, you might not be precisely on target. With a properly placed head shot however, deactivation of the main brain housing group is immediate. If the chest shot is all you can get, then by all means go for it but start walking those rounds right on up to the assailant's brain. But then, you're free to take my advice or leave it, briandg. It is going to be your call. I'm just trying to put some friendly advice out there.
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