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Old January 15, 2019, 11:05 PM   #1
Chaparral
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Hairy situation here in Texas

Situation happened to myself here in Texas as I traveled from my home town to one of the larger big cities here in Texas. This was right before Christmas. I had been out all day conducting business and I arrived back that evening walking across the parking lot to my hotel room.When I drove up I saw 3 young Hispanic guys with tattoos on their faces standing in the parking lot. I pulled my SW mdl 60 Chief Special out and placed it in my rt hand with my coat over my hand and arm.I had the barrel pointing forward. As I approached the hotel I saw them walking toward me. I'm an older guy, with not much fighting ability left, but plenty of training with weapons and shooting still usable. Immediately they approached me. They stood in front of me at my 10, 12, and 2 o'clock positions Probably 5 ft away. I noticed the guy at the 10 spot had a longneck beer bottle in his rt hand. The other two had empty hands. I was assuming that beer bottle was for my lt side of my head. The one in the middle was doing all the talking in broken English. The 2 on the ends looked scared while the one talking was attempting to distract me.The whole time I had thoughts rushing through my head 1) I am going to hate killing these 3 guys,2) I am going to hate putting holes in this jacket.3) Double tap the one with the bottle and then work down the line. 4) Look for anyone behind them. My training took over. Finally the one in the middle ask," Hey can you look at your watch and tell me the time?" When he asked that I noticed the guy at my 10 turned his beer around in his rt hand and stepped toward me. I stepped back and told them my watch was broke. The guy in the middle just smiled and said,"Watch is broke huh?"I smiled and said yeah. They moved aside and I walked to the hotel entrance. Inside I just deflated. They had no idea what was under that jacket pointing right at their chest. Thank God I had it with me.
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Old January 15, 2019, 11:28 PM   #2
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So you drove up and see these guys that concerned you so much that you drew your firearm, put it in your hand, and walked with it pointed at these guys. I get that it was your hotel room, but you had a car that gave you an escape. Why not just go for a ride around the block, or drive to a convenience store and get a snack? Then come back and see if they're still there. Why walk willingly into that situation? Had that coat blown aside or been brushed aside you're brandishing a firearm and pointing it towards people that had not at that point made any threats. In certain locations that might be considered in itself assault. It also might have triggered those guys to do something when they may well have been just drunk idiots (if they're going to attack you seems to me that one would want to get in your blind spot, not all three stand in front of you). Idk. This is just my read of things.

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Old January 15, 2019, 11:32 PM   #3
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Glad it worked out for you. I'm usually a semi guy, but there are times where an internal hammer revolver is a better tool.
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Old January 16, 2019, 12:54 AM   #4
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Agree entirely with TunnelRat. Avoidence is the first concern. Above all the live fire training you do.
Did your room have an interior door, and you were walking toward the hotel entrance? Hotels have more than one entrance even though they might not be closest to your room.
If not, and your room had an exterior door, that was your first mistake. Always choose a hotel with interior access to your room.
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Old January 16, 2019, 07:24 AM   #5
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We live knee deep in these thugs here in Texas.
They're impossible to avoid anymore.
Stay ready. Stay confident. Make good choices.
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Old January 16, 2019, 11:51 AM   #6
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Whatever you did,it worked. Glad you are OK.

Keyboard hindsight certainly can be very well thought out.What may seem obvious from the outside looking in,Its different when you are in the middle of a changing situation.

Without being a critic...I have no criticism,I tend to agree that if a situation looks bad enough for me to get my gun in my hand,I might consider not walking toward the situation. No matter how legit a SD shooting might be,I would not regret surviving,but likely I'd wish I'd chosen as TunnelRat suggested.

Once again,no criticism,my "personal space" would be closer to 20 feet than 5 feet.Even if I have to back up some.

And consider,you had 10,12,and 2 covered. Remember the Three Musketeers? Athos,Porthos,and Demitri ? What about D;Arctanian? (OK,I probably spelled it wrong) Anyway, who was watching 6 oclock? Thug number 4?

What you did worked. Good for you!!
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Old January 16, 2019, 12:50 PM   #7
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You observe a group of men that make you uneasy.. so uneasy in fact that you draw a weapon and cover it with a coat. I would say that if I feel that I need to hold a gun in my hand in order to enter a hotel, I wont enter it at the present time. If a minor inconvenience can save me from being harmed or potential having to harm someone else, I will gladly accept an inconvenience.

If the man indeed turned the bottle around as if to use it like a bludgeon, I agree that it certainly seems like they were going to make a move on you. At the same time, if that was their intent and the fellow was actually readying himself to make a move on you. I don't see your "verbal quip" as being an effective means to dissuade them from trying. I wont say that you were wrong in your assessment of these men, you may be 100% correct but I find it odd if the suggesting is that that they aborted simply because you didn't look at your watch.

Good job on paying attention..

I offer a demerit on walking right into a situation when or [if] your gut was telling you that you that you needed a gun at the ready.
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Old January 16, 2019, 01:25 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TunnelRat View Post
So you drove up and see these guys that concerned you so much that you drew your firearm, put it in your hand, and walked with it pointed at these guys. I get that it was your hotel room, but you had a car that gave you an escape. Why not just go for a ride around the block, or drive to a convenience store and get a snack? Then come back and see if they're still there. Why walk willingly into that situation? Had that coat blown aside or been brushed aside you're brandishing a firearm and pointing it towards people that had not at that point made any threats. In certain locations that might be considered in itself assault. It also might have triggered those guys to do something when they may well have been just drunk idiots (if they're going to attack you seems to me that one would want to get in your blind spot, not all three stand in front of you). Idk. This is just my read of things.

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Yeah you are completely right. I should have just drove around in circles going to convenient stores snacking on peanuts and circling the parking lot until they were gone. Yeah your right. I should let three possible thugs dictate when, where, and how I move in life. These Texas gangs like MS13 LOVE for you to be afraid. And your right about the weapon too. I should have let them cave the side of my head in with the bottle and then pull the weapon. Or I could have sat in the truck with the doors locked waiting till whenever to go to my room. All sounds great!
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Old January 16, 2019, 01:26 PM   #9
Chaparral
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Originally Posted by ManyMag View Post
We live knee deep in these thugs here in Texas.
They're impossible to avoid anymore.
Stay ready. Stay confident. Make good choices.
I appreciate you brother.
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Old January 16, 2019, 01:28 PM   #10
Chaparral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireForged View Post
You observe a group of men that make you uneasy.. so uneasy in fact that you draw a weapon and cover it with a coat. I would say that if I feel that I need to hold a gun in my hand in order to enter a hotel, I wont enter it at the present time. If a minor inconvenience can save me from being harmed or potential having to harm someone else, I will gladly accept an inconvenience.

If the man indeed turned the bottle around as if to use it like a bludgeon, I agree that it certainly seems like they were going to make a move on you. At the same time, if that was their intent and the fellow was actually readying himself to make a move on you. I don't see your "verbal quip" as being an effective means to dissuade them from trying. I wont say that you were wrong in your assessment of these men, you may be 100% correct but I find it odd if the suggesting is that that they aborted simply because you didn't look at your watch.

Good job on paying attention..

I offer a demerit on walking right into a situation when or [if] your gut was telling you that you that you needed a gun at the ready.
I parked a good ways from them. I did not walk into them, they had to walk a good distance to confront me.
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Old January 16, 2019, 01:33 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Chaparral View Post
Yeah you are completely right. I should have just drove around in circles going to convenient stores snacking on peanuts and circling the parking lot until they were gone. Yeah your right. I should let three possible thugs dictate when, where, and how I move in life. These Texas gangs like MS13 LOVE for you to be afraid. And your right about the weapon too. I should have let them cave the side of my head in with the bottle and then pull the weapon. Or I could have sat in the truck with the doors locked waiting till whenever to go to my room. All sounds great!
So you know for a fact that these guys were MS13 and not three drunk guys? And you scared off three members of MS13 by coming up with, "My watch is broken"? Damn.

I'm not asking you to drive around all night. At some point you have to go to bed and I'm a realist. But heck a short delay is better than potentially having to kill 3 people, right? If you came back and they were still there maybe stop in at the front desk and ask if they know who they are. Maybe ask if the person can get the police to do a drive by. At least work some options before walking right into what you perceived to be an imminent threat. But I forgot. You have a gun. You're deputized by default. And these three guys that hadn't yet done anything to confirm they were a threat you were going to walk over there weapon drawn ready to kill them if they gave you any grief. "My training took over". You know I've seen that video. That guy was also from Texas.

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Old January 16, 2019, 01:38 PM   #12
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Chaparral: If you are gonna post something of this nature, expect to get picked apart. This is the reason I will never divulge any thing of this nature. All it does is piss the OP off, unless the OP asked to be judged.

I unnerstand where you are coming from though having encountered two such incidents. Whatever happened is not public information; at least those are my thoughts.

All in all, if you do post the incident, consider it a learning experience. Lots of guys have lots of opinions.
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Old January 16, 2019, 01:42 PM   #13
Chaparral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TunnelRat View Post
So you know for a fact that these guys were MS13 and not three drunk guys? And you scared off three members of MS13 by coming up with, "My watch is broken"? Damn.

I'm not asking you to drive around all night. At some point you have to go to bed and I'm a realist. But heck a short delay is better than potentially having to kill 3 people, right? If you came back and they were still there maybe stop in at the front desk and ask if they know who they are. Maybe ask if the person can get the police to do a drive by. At least work some options before walking right into what you perceived to be an imminent threat. But I forgot. You have a gun. You're deputized by default. And these three guys that hadn't yet done anything to confirm they were a threat you were going to walk over there weapon drawn ready to kill them if they gave you any grief. "My training took over". You know I've seen that video. That guy was also from Texas.

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Tunnel Rat you are totally right. I need to move to your state and be more like you.
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Old January 16, 2019, 01:43 PM   #14
Chaparral
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Originally Posted by Dufus View Post
Chaparral: If you are gonna post something of this nature, expect to get picked apart. This is the reason I will never divulge any thing of this nature. All it does is piss the OP off, unless the OP asked to be judged.

I unnerstand where you are coming from though having encountered two such incidents. Whatever happened is not public information; at least those are my thoughts.

All in all, if you do post the incident, consider it a learning experience. Lots of guys have lots of opinions.
Lesson learned. I hate drama.
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Old January 16, 2019, 01:44 PM   #15
TunnelRat
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So let's be realistic for a second. What's the point of talking to others about things like this? Is it just supposed to be a communal circle jerk where we pat each other on the back, say good job, and give out gold stars? Or are we actually trying to learn something like a real AAR. Consider lessons learned, potential alternatives, you know, an actual mental exercise. We should be critical of each other, and we should be even more critical of ourselves. Better we think about it here than have the rest of our lives to think about it if it actually happened.

As for the common response of, "Well I guess I'm not perfect like you". That's missing the point about as much as possible. I have never claimed to be perfect and I never will. I have screwed up before and when I do I am my harshest critic. If the only response you have to an alternate point of view is anger and dismissal, you're cheating yourself. By the way that last point of view comes from a man who lives in Texas and was an officer in Baltimore PD for decades.

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Last edited by TunnelRat; January 16, 2019 at 01:53 PM.
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Old January 16, 2019, 02:09 PM   #16
Glenn E. Meyer
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Questions about your watch, directions are well known criminal 'interrogations' to test your victim status.

There's plenty of that from reliable sources on the web if you search for that.

Let's not get to personal here. Make it a learning experience.

BTW, in TX classes, we would have emphasized avoidance in this situation. Walking towards folks where you have to take your gun out, would not have been praised in class.

Last, don't assume your gun fight plan (which is good to have) is going to work. Shooting snubbies under stress isn't the easiest thing. Thus, try some quality FOF get a feel for success in such.
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Old January 16, 2019, 02:10 PM   #17
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I understand what everyone is saying about avoiding a situation and if I had my kids I might choose that path as well BUT, they win that way. I can't stand these punks turning my state and country into the same crappy kind of country they "fled" from. No, don't turn away and if they approach, put them in the grave!!!
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Old January 16, 2019, 02:28 PM   #18
Chaparral
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Anyhow back to my story. I truly was trying to point out things that might save your life. I'm sorry for having a snubnose at that time, I'm sorry for not camping in my truck, I NEVER walked toward anyone but they walked across a parking lot to get to me! Many years ago I took a combat pistol course in Oklahoma (oh my gosh can this be worse than my state of Texas?). One instructor was teaching awareness and PREPARATION. In the story I emphasized watching their hands. He taught us that their eyes will not kill you but their hands will. My eyes were locked on their hands. (Gee I hope that doesn't offend someone.) Annnnddddd he also happen to mention watch them attempting to distract you. He actually said it may be as simple as asking you the time. He said that one second of looking at your watch or cell phone may mean your life. So that is why I said my watch didn't work. Now I know these young innocent lads from the First Baptist Church of Houston that I portrayed so horribly were probably about to witness to me about Jesus. I feel so horrible now for trying to stay alert and possibly defending myself. And I apologize for being from Texas.
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Old January 16, 2019, 02:37 PM   #19
Chaparral
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Originally Posted by Roamin_Wade View Post
I understand what everyone is saying about avoiding a situation and if I had my kids I might choose that path as well BUT, they win that way. I can't stand these punks turning my state and country into the same crappy kind of country they "fled" from. No, don't turn away and if they approach, put them in the grave!!!
Funny how people in here tell me to avoid, avoid, avoid. And say "walking towards folks". Amazingly that is why I parked so far from them, walked towards my door, and they came across the parking lot and stopped me and stood in front of me in front of my door! Man I'm wrong on everything from having a subnose, not circling the motel, preparing, staying alert, assuming gang affiliation. not getting snacks, and last but not least being from Texas.
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Old January 16, 2019, 02:47 PM   #20
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Now I know these young innocent lads from the First Baptist Church of Houston that I portrayed so horribly were probably about to witness to me about Jesus. I feel so horrible now for trying to stay alert and possibly defending myself. And I apologize for being from Texas.
You're taking this way too personally and going a bit overboard. I doubt they were Mormons, but someone being drunk, Hispanic, and having tattoos doesn't automatically mean they're going to assault you. Would I have been cautious in that situation? Damn right. Would I have walked towards them if I felt the only way to do so safely was with a drawn firearm? No. Has anyone here asked you to "apologize"? To my knowledge, no. Relax. As for the Texas comment, it was a joke in reference to a viral YouTube video. I am confident that the people of Texas can survive some very gentle ribbing.

You posted something to the internet to a discussion forum. People commented on it. That's how this works. Now you're mad at the people that didn't agree?
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Old January 16, 2019, 02:53 PM   #21
Chaparral
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Originally Posted by TunnelRat View Post
You're taking this way too personally and going a bit overboard. I doubt they were Mormons, but someone being drunk, Hispanic, and having tattoos doesn't automatically mean they're going to assault you. Would I have been cautious in that situation? Damn right. Would I have walked towards them if I felt the only way to do so safely was with a drawn firearm? No. Has anyone here asked you to "apologize"? To my knowledge, no. Relax. As for the Texas comment, it was a joke in reference to a viral YouTube video. I am confident that the people of Texas can survive some very gentle ribbing.

You posted something to the internet to a discussion forum. People commented on it. That's how this works. Now you're mad at the people that didn't agree?
Did anyone here say they were drunk? Did anyone say I walked toward them? Man simply get your facts straight before talking a bunch but really saying nothing.
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Old January 16, 2019, 02:57 PM   #22
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So let's look at this from another angle. What happens when the three individuals you encountered get inside your personal space and start giving you a hard time? Maybe one gives you a small push but nothing life threatening. You can't just shoot them for it, and as you said, you're an old guy without much fighting ability left so how are you going to resolve that?

No one likes the feeling of others having control over their lives but if you end up shooting someone you shouldn't have then every waking moment of the rest of your life will be dictated to you. In prison.
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Old January 16, 2019, 02:58 PM   #23
TunnelRat
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You're right. You didn't say they were drunk. You said one had a beer bottle in his hands. I interpreted that as they were potentially drunk, similar to you interpreted they might be MS13. I was wrong and I apologize. And yes they walked towards you. You obviously were concerned that your path might draw their attention and bring them over to you as you chose to walk gun in hand. I don't think these factors invalidate everything I've said here, but I'll leave that to others.
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Old January 16, 2019, 03:14 PM   #24
Chaparral
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Originally Posted by shafter View Post
So let's look at this from another angle. What happens when the three individuals you encountered get inside your personal space and start giving you a hard time? Maybe one gives you a small push but nothing life threatening. You can't just shoot them for it, and as you said, you're an old guy without much fighting ability left so how are you going to resolve that?

No one likes the feeling of others having control over their lives but if you end up shooting someone you shouldn't have then every waking moment of the rest of your life will be dictated to you. In prison.
Shafter, I'm afraid to actually say what I am about to say, but in the state of Texas many things can constitute a weapon. I never wanted to say this but I have been in law enforcement, around law enforcement, and taught law enforcement since late 70's. Presently I teach at a Texas college. If I were assaulted by these three, at my age, this would constitute a weapon in itself. A simple push or shove or making fun is not grounds. But if it broke out into stealing my property, an assault that escalated to the point where I feared for my life just from being overcome by young people obviously stronger, using fist and feet or whatever than yes lethal force is justified. Remember, feet and hands are listed as a weapon. People are beat to death every day. In my situation deadly force was not justified. Had he swung the bottle I would have dropped him. Also, you are taught when dealing with weapons you never want to be out done so to speak. In other words if he raises his hands you raise a stick, if he raises a stick you raise a gun and so on. I once saw a man here in Texas take his belt off that had a big rodeo buckle and start swinging it. The other guy pulled a pistol and killed him. The man was not charged.
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Old January 16, 2019, 04:25 PM   #25
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Chaparral,

I'm glad all worked out well for you and the three young men. I've never been in a similar situation, but I do have a couple of questions for you.

You wrote that you drove into the parking lot, parked and saw three young men across the parking lot. You THEN drew your weapon and approached the hotel/room entrance, while the three men approached you from across the parking lot.

Here are my questions...How far away from you were they when you actually drew your weapon? If a shooting had occurred, and a justifiable reason had to be determined, would avoidance have been a better option?
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