Belt fed .22 SMG

George Hill · May 3, 2000, 02:00 AM

I swear I saw a photo of one...
I the 4th Edition of Assault Weapons - a soft cover book I was flipping through at Barnes and Nobles...
I looked like a fat Flash Gordon ray gun...
I forget the name of the thing - it was nasty looking and somewhat retarded... but it has a RPM rate of 2200!
Has anyone ever heard of such a hidious thing before?

fal308 · May 3, 2000, 08:16 AM

Not sure offhand of the one of which you speak but some of the Tippmans are FA.

James K · May 4, 2000, 10:31 AM

I don't remember the maker, but there were some .22 belt fed copies of the Browning 1917 and 1919 made back around 1960. They were NFA weapons, but at that time could be registered and legal. I think the price was into 5 figures ($12,000 comes to mind, really big bucks in that era). There was at least one gunzine article.

All were handmade of course and they used neat little fabric belts. I have no idea how many made and sold, but at a guess, less than a dozen.

Jim

pete80 · May 4, 2000, 06:06 PM

Damn, that thing would be like a laser! No recoil or muzzle jump. Can anyone find a pic of this weapon?

Shin-Tao · May 4, 2000, 07:27 PM

What would an operator use such a thing for?

sharpsrifle · May 4, 2000, 09:02 PM

George

I remember the gun you are talking about.
It was written up in Soldier of Fortune about 20 years ago. I'm not sure but I believe the late Marsh "Carbine" Williams was the designer. He envisioned it as point man / counter sniper "bullet hose".
It looked nothing like a Browning design.
Now I've got to get up to B&N and check out the article.

------------------
Regards, Sharps.

George Hill · May 5, 2000, 02:01 AM

SHIN-TAO - Never ask What a weapon is for! Never!

(because the maker may not be able to give you a straight answer!)

LISK, I think is the name of the maker... and I believe it could fire at a rate up to 5,000 RPM some how.

Firing at that rate - it would be like a lazer. A near constant stream of small bits of lead.
It had no sights, no shoulder stock... It was intended for SPRAY and PRAY fighting.
Perhaps a near perfect weapon for POINT SHOOTING!

James K · May 5, 2000, 09:29 PM

Additional info.

The gun I remember seeing in pictures was not, I believe, made for any practical use. Like some of the scaled down Gatlings, it was strictly a fun thing. It was a perfect scale model of the Browning, complete with water jacket and hose on the 1917, and perforated jacket on the 1919. Whole gun was about 18" long, going by a man's hand operating it.

Jim

fal308 · May 6, 2000, 11:06 AM

Jim
The gun you're referring to, I believe, is the Tippman. He made very accurate scale working models of several medium and heavy machineguns in the '60s and '70s IIRC. They came in a scale crate with scale belts, ammo cans etc. Very beautiful and first class workmanship. They were made in both FA and semi.
There was a semi 1919A Browning at Knob Creek a couple of weeks ago with crate, belts, ammo can and manual. $5000 for the whole setup! These things are works of art. Mostly held by collectors and hardly ever seen for sale.

James K · May 6, 2000, 02:48 PM

Yep, fal308, Tippmann rings a bell. Sharps must be thinking of something else, as I can't imagine a Tippmann being used by a point man for anybody's army. I am astonished that one was only $5000, as it seemed to me it was more than that new.

Jim

tankertom · May 6, 2000, 05:32 PM

I think Sharps may be thinking of the American 180.

I have heard that there was some thought of LE/military use. They hae 180 or 275 round drums and a manical cyclic rate.

I have seen a Tippmann and it was a work of art. Generally they cost the same as the full size, say a 1919 cost 6K so deos the Tipmann version.

James K · May 6, 2000, 10:33 PM

Hi, tankertom,

I suspect you may be right, but the 180 is not belt fed. They were reportedly used by some prison guards with laser sights. Stories were that in prison troubles, "painting" the leader was enough to put a stop to the problem. There was something about knowing that a couple of hundred 22's could easily go through the red dot that took the starch out of bad guys in a way bigger caliber stuff did not.

Jim

Correia · May 7, 2000, 10:59 PM

Why a full auto .22 you ask?

Because it would be the only full auto that I could afford to shoot!

George Hill · May 8, 2000, 02:43 AM

Nope - not a Tippman, not a scaled down anything... no water jacket... Just a really weird gun...

Go look for the book and check it out.
Funky as heck - but I kinda want one for some reason... I dont know why.

tankertom · May 8, 2000, 05:15 PM

A good place to look for pictures of full autos is www.securityarms.com

TT

George Hill · May 9, 2000, 04:00 AM

Yes it is - but this gun aint in there.

sharpsrifle · May 9, 2000, 10:39 PM

It is not a Tippman and it is not an American 180. Nor does it look like either.

As George said, in the original post, it looks like some kind of ray gun from the old Buck Rogers program.

Why a .22?
Think JUNGLE...
Suppressive firepower for close range engagements.
10,000 rounds of .22LR only weighs about 10 Lbs.
Remember, someone has to hump all that ammo.

------------------
Regards, Sharps.

madmike · May 9, 2008, 12:42 AM

Zombie thread resurrection

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg57-e.htm sounds like a Calico, for ray gun looks.

The already mentioned American 180

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg62-e.htm

B. Lahey · May 9, 2008, 02:33 AM

Here's a mini-1919:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=abTGAP7tG0Y

ConfuseUs · May 9, 2008, 04:04 AM

I think I've seen a picture of this gun in an article in the Small Arms Review a few years ago. It looked pretty much like some sort of 1950s ray gun with a forward grip and only one or two were ever made. It was intended for short range jungle use so it had no sights, the bullets were more or less walked into the target. It looked like a pretty fun way to burn up a few bricks of .22 in a couple of minutes.

SDC · May 9, 2008, 06:53 AM

Lakeside Guns owns the production rights to the Tippmanns now, and they do belt-fed 22 LR AR uppers as well.

http://www.lakesideguns.com/

Firepower! · May 9, 2008, 07:08 AM

Now that would be a gun to own. I always thought getting something like, but now that I know its out there I am going to look for it.

How big is the belt on this thing since with that rate of fire you are hosing the rounds out like a 'laser.'

Only thing remotely close to it that I enjoyed was .22 skorpion.

madmike · May 9, 2008, 08:54 AM

DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME.

A friend of mine actually walked through Moron Grove, IL (with its handgun ban) with a Calico in a holster, while wearing a futuristic costume for a convention. Cops drove right by and assumed it was a prop.

chris in va · May 9, 2008, 12:32 PM

delete

jackel · May 9, 2008, 11:36 PM

The gun you are talking about is a David marshall "carbine" Williams LEL-1 .22 belt fed submachine gun 2700rpm there is a great artical in the Small Arms Review July 2005 Vol.8 No.10 About the guns that he made. He had around 40 patents on guns like the model 7 and others
Sorry I was hoping to find some pictures on the net but I came up with nothing here are some links
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CarbineWilliams
-Josh

May 9, 2008, 12:42 AM	#18
madmike Senior Member Join Date: October 5, 2000 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 559	Zombie thread resurrection http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg57-e.htm sounds like a Calico, for ray gun looks. The already mentioned American 180 http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg62-e.htm __________________ FORGED IN BLOOD, (editor), Sept 2017, Baen Books THE TIDE OF BATTLE, July 2018, Baen Books http://www.MichaelZWilliamson.com http://www.SharpPointyThings.com

May 9, 2008, 04:04 AM	#20
ConfuseUs Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2007 Posts: 461	I think I've seen a picture of this gun in an article in the Small Arms Review a few years ago. It looked pretty much like some sort of 1950s ray gun with a forward grip and only one or two were ever made. It was intended for short range jungle use so it had no sights, the bullets were more or less walked into the target. It looked like a pretty fun way to burn up a few bricks of .22 in a couple of minutes. __________________ Overkill is better than underkill.

May 9, 2008, 06:53 AM	#21
SDC Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2001 Location: People's Republic of Kanada Posts: 1,652	Lakeside Guns owns the production rights to the Tippmanns now, and they do belt-fed 22 LR AR uppers as well. http://www.lakesideguns.com/ __________________ Gun control in Canada: making the streets safer for rapists, muggers, and other violent criminals since 1936.

May 9, 2008, 07:08 AM	#22
Firepower! Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2008 Posts: 2,109	awesome Now that would be a gun to own. I always thought getting something like, but now that I know its out there I am going to look for it. How big is the belt on this thing since with that rate of fire you are hosing the rounds out like a 'laser.' Only thing remotely close to it that I enjoyed was .22 skorpion.

May 9, 2008, 08:54 AM	#23
madmike Senior Member Join Date: October 5, 2000 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 559	DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME. A friend of mine actually walked through Moron Grove, IL (with its handgun ban) with a Calico in a holster, while wearing a futuristic costume for a convention. Cops drove right by and assumed it was a prop. __________________ FORGED IN BLOOD, (editor), Sept 2017, Baen Books THE TIDE OF BATTLE, July 2018, Baen Books http://www.MichaelZWilliamson.com http://www.SharpPointyThings.com

May 3, 2000, 02:00 AM	#1
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	I swear I saw a photo of one... I the 4th Edition of Assault Weapons - a soft cover book I was flipping through at Barnes and Nobles... I looked like a fat Flash Gordon ray gun... I forget the name of the thing - it was nasty looking and somewhat retarded... but it has a RPM rate of 2200! Has anyone ever heard of such a hidious thing before?

May 3, 2000, 08:16 AM	#2
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	Not sure offhand of the one of which you speak but some of the Tippmans are FA.

May 4, 2000, 10:31 AM	#3
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I don't remember the maker, but there were some .22 belt fed copies of the Browning 1917 and 1919 made back around 1960. They were NFA weapons, but at that time could be registered and legal. I think the price was into 5 figures ($12,000 comes to mind, really big bucks in that era). There was at least one gunzine article. All were handmade of course and they used neat little fabric belts. I have no idea how many made and sold, but at a guess, less than a dozen. Jim

May 4, 2000, 06:06 PM	#4
pete80 Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 1999 Posts: 454	Damn, that thing would be like a laser! No recoil or muzzle jump. Can anyone find a pic of this weapon?

May 4, 2000, 07:27 PM	#5
Shin-Tao Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2000 Posts: 1,528	What would an operator use such a thing for?

May 4, 2000, 09:02 PM	#6
sharpsrifle Member Join Date: July 19, 1999 Posts: 84	George I remember the gun you are talking about. It was written up in Soldier of Fortune about 20 years ago. I'm not sure but I believe the late Marsh "Carbine" Williams was the designer. He envisioned it as point man / counter sniper "bullet hose". It looked nothing like a Browning design. Now I've got to get up to B&N and check out the article. ------------------ Regards, Sharps.

May 5, 2000, 02:01 AM	#7
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	SHIN-TAO - Never ask What a weapon is for! Never! (because the maker may not be able to give you a straight answer!) LISK, I think is the name of the maker... and I believe it could fire at a rate up to 5,000 RPM some how. Firing at that rate - it would be like a lazer. A near constant stream of small bits of lead. It had no sights, no shoulder stock... It was intended for SPRAY and PRAY fighting. Perhaps a near perfect weapon for POINT SHOOTING!

May 5, 2000, 09:29 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Additional info. The gun I remember seeing in pictures was not, I believe, made for any practical use. Like some of the scaled down Gatlings, it was strictly a fun thing. It was a perfect scale model of the Browning, complete with water jacket and hose on the 1917, and perforated jacket on the 1919. Whole gun was about 18" long, going by a man's hand operating it. Jim

May 6, 2000, 11:06 AM	#9
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	Jim The gun you're referring to, I believe, is the Tippman. He made very accurate scale working models of several medium and heavy machineguns in the '60s and '70s IIRC. They came in a scale crate with scale belts, ammo cans etc. Very beautiful and first class workmanship. They were made in both FA and semi. There was a semi 1919A Browning at Knob Creek a couple of weeks ago with crate, belts, ammo can and manual. $5000 for the whole setup! These things are works of art. Mostly held by collectors and hardly ever seen for sale.

May 6, 2000, 02:48 PM	#10
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Yep, fal308, Tippmann rings a bell. Sharps must be thinking of something else, as I can't imagine a Tippmann being used by a point man for anybody's army. I am astonished that one was only $5000, as it seemed to me it was more than that new. Jim

May 6, 2000, 05:32 PM	#11
tankertom Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 1998 Location: Northern Virginia, USA Posts: 199	I think Sharps may be thinking of the American 180. I have heard that there was some thought of LE/military use. They hae 180 or 275 round drums and a manical cyclic rate. I have seen a Tippmann and it was a work of art. Generally they cost the same as the full size, say a 1919 cost 6K so deos the Tipmann version.

May 6, 2000, 10:33 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, tankertom, I suspect you may be right, but the 180 is not belt fed. They were reportedly used by some prison guards with laser sights. Stories were that in prison troubles, "painting" the leader was enough to put a stop to the problem. There was something about knowing that a couple of hundred 22's could easily go through the red dot that took the starch out of bad guys in a way bigger caliber stuff did not. Jim

May 7, 2000, 10:59 PM	#13
Correia Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 1998 Location: SLC Utah Posts: 3,740	Why a full auto .22 you ask? Because it would be the only full auto that I could afford to shoot!

May 8, 2000, 02:43 AM	#14
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	Nope - not a Tippman, not a scaled down anything... no water jacket... Just a really weird gun... Go look for the book and check it out. Funky as heck - but I kinda want one for some reason... I dont know why.

May 8, 2000, 05:15 PM	#15
tankertom Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 1998 Location: Northern Virginia, USA Posts: 199	A good place to look for pictures of full autos is www.securityarms.com TT

May 9, 2000, 04:00 AM	#16
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	Yes it is - but this gun aint in there.

May 9, 2000, 10:39 PM	#17
sharpsrifle Member Join Date: July 19, 1999 Posts: 84	It is not a Tippman and it is not an American 180. Nor does it look like either. As George said, in the original post, it looks like some kind of ray gun from the old Buck Rogers program. Why a .22? Think JUNGLE... Suppressive firepower for close range engagements. 10,000 rounds of .22LR only weighs about 10 Lbs. Remember, someone has to hump all that ammo. ------------------ Regards, Sharps.

May 9, 2008, 02:33 AM	#19
B. Lahey Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 2,857	Here's a mini-1919: http://youtube.com/watch?v=abTGAP7tG0Y

May 9, 2008, 12:32 PM	#24
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	delete

May 9, 2008, 11:36 PM	#25
jackel Junior Member Join Date: September 11, 2006 Posts: 9	sharpsrifle is correct it is a Williams lel-1 submachine gun The gun you are talking about is a David marshall "carbine" Williams LEL-1 .22 belt fed submachine gun 2700rpm there is a great artical in the Small Arms Review July 2005 Vol.8 No.10 About the guns that he made. He had around 40 patents on guns like the model 7 and others Sorry I was hoping to find some pictures on the net but I came up with nothing here are some links http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CarbineWilliams -Josh

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