At what point would/should you step in?

[foolzrushn]

We lived behind a tavern (yeah, I know). One evening a woman was screaming bloody murder in the alley behind the bar, between our house and the bar. Her drunken 'boyfriend' was wailing away on her. I yelled from my porch that I had called the cops. The chick stops yelling, puts her arm around the drunk and drags him back in the bar! That's why cops hate domestic fights, they both attack you.

I would always ask myself if what I see could be the actions of an undercover cop (although lately that's getting a lot harder). Yelling is good if you are prepared to defend your self right then. If you yell be ready to shoot or flee. Think first where to flee or better yet, yell from behind cover and let them worry about where you are, and what threat you are to them.

If it's a cop they may tell you. If it's a cop or another bystander and they see you draw, they may shoot you. Also, if someone is not being killed, you should really consider the bad guy revenge. They will know where you live, and you probably won't know where they live. Do you want drive-bys?

One of my triggers these days would be to see someone randomly shooting people. I figure no good guy will be doing that. Hope never to see that.

[JohnKSa]

Something for everyone to keep in mind as they participate in this discussion.

It's fine for folks to say what they would do and why--the exchange of ideas is what this forum is all about.

But please try to keep in mind that personal moral codes are PERSONAL and therefore tend to differ from person to person.

Please refrain from denigrating all those persons who don't adhere to your personal moral code. Just because you strongly believe it's right for you doesn't make it right for everyone. In fact, just because a person strongly believes in their own moral code doesn't automatically mean that it is right for them. A lot of people have gotten themselves in a lot of trouble throughout history by doing what they felt they had to do.

This subforum is focused on strategies and tactics. Your personal moral codes may affect your strategies and tactics, but that doesn't make the resulting strategies and tactics sound. Please try to stay focused on strategies and tactics and not on trying to enforce your personal moral codes on others or on trying to justify them to the other discussion participants.

[Sharkbite]

How well could you carry the burden if the guy you shot and killed turned out to be an innocent graduate student desperately trying to defend himself against a PCP crazed street person

This shows perfectly the often spoken response on a GUN forum. "If all you have is a hammer, everything gets treated like a nail".

I never said i would see the problem and instantly go to guns. That is a simplistic (and slightly moronic) assumption. There are a number of options to help you figure out what is likely to be happening AND help stop the action besides putting rounds on target.

As mentioned a cpl posts back, a loud verbal command to "STOP" is going to help ascertain the intent and motivation of the combatants. A car horn...driving your car up to them and flashing the high beams. Any number of options to interrupt the fight and allow the innocent party to disengage.

<<SNIP>>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkbite
...its is YOUR CHOICE to sit there and watch this woman get her head smashed into the concrete and end up horribly injured or dead....
Who said anything like that? That's not what it shows in the video.


I said it. I took the action in the video to the extream end. Where your interferences in the situation became a fairly black and white decision. Watch as her head is smashed against the pavement and be a "good witness" or intervene and save her life.

Now, having been in LE and a use of force trainer for ~25 years. I have dealt with more then my share of street/bar/domestic fights. Its never black and white. But, the violence needs to ended quickly...no matter which party is "winning" at the time i arrived on scene.

As soon as the "fist fight" turns into a deadly force encounter. It needs to be stopped and whoever is trying to kill the other person is the one getting my attention. It doesn't matter to me what started the fight or who is to blame. The person trying to smash the other head into the pavement..kicking a downed person....choking...stabbing... ANYTHING that is likely to kill or maim the other, needs to be stopped.

A schoolyard type fist fight is one thing. A purse snatching that turn into a minor tug-a-war and similar circumstances are one thing. Sure be a good witness, take a cell phone video.

When it turns deadly, i think i have a MORAL obligation to intercede. Your moral compass may point you in a different direction. Thats FINE. I chose to walk that path (and have done so in more crappy parts of this world then i care to think about)

It may be pleasing to one's vanity to think of himself as the "sheepdog."

Its not about "vanity"...its about a true HEARTFELT desire to help my fellow man. <<SNIP>>

You choose to sit by and watch. To "not get involved", that is TOTALLY your right and choice. <<SNIP>> I CANNOT envision Thomas Jefferson or George Washington just standing by and letting a woman take a beating. Jump forward in time...Abe Lincoln??? Ronald Reagan?? Tired of Presidents, want a regular guy? Chris Kyle?? These are the men i look to as heros
You may not understand the path i have chosen to walk, and thats FINE. <<SNIP>>

[zincwarrior]

They are not family. No one is going to take care of my family if something happens and I end up spending thousands of dollars and potentially losing my job. If it is a domestic its just as likely that she turns against me and attacks me.

Family is not the most important thing. Its the only thing that matters.

[NateKirk]

Also to keep in mind is that a camera phone can be a pretty good weapon too. Getting some good shots of the incident and everyone involved can help ID the people so that the proper authorities can find them and work out the details. However I agree with Sharkbite that there comes a point when you have to intervene when people are being seriously hurt.

[Sharkbite]

And thats FINE. You have identified your personal "line in the sand". Thank God the LEO responding to your 911 call has a different line in the sand.

Before we get off on the LEO's job is to protect, let me say that i think it is EVERYBODY's job to protect the weak and/or victims in the society in which they live. The Police cannot be everywhere all the time. We need to aboe to stand up for ourselves AND others when the need arises. Another point is this...Cols are just people. When i was first sworn into LE work. I was issued a lot of gear. NONE of it included ANY superpowers. No ultra refined discretionary decision making abilities...certainly no super abilities with a firearm. Just a guy that out on a certain set of clothes and made the commitment to help others.

You dont want to...thats perfectly OK. Dont denigrate those of us that WOULD (and have) run to the sound of guns and made a difference, at great personal risk. We, as LEO's and Mil and Security types dont think we are morally superior. In fact i dont even consider us "normal". But, we are different. Both in thought and action when faced with stuff like in the vid posted by the OP.

[Sharkbite]

Also to keep in mind is that a camera phone can be a pretty good weapon too. Getting some good shots of the incident and everyone involved can help ID the people so that the proper authorities can find them and work out the details.
____________

Great...you now have vid/pics of someone being horrible beaten or killed. Lots of good that will be to the victim or remaining family.

[Lohman446]

There are countless ways to help ones fellow man other than violence. I worry that if, after a shooting, I tried to show how much I cared about the well being of my fellow man that my own actions if self interest and to some degree isolation would be up for discussion

[NateKirk]

Great...you now have vid/pics of someone being horrible beaten or killed. Lots of good that will be to the victim or remaining family.

I'm saying that creating more evidence for the properly trained people to use can sometimes be more help than trying to intervene in some situations

[Sharkbite]

I'm saying that creating more evidence for the properly trained people to use can sometimes be more help than trying to intervene in some situations

"Help" to who?
It certainly will not help the victim of the attack. Not during the attack or in the aftermath and recovery/healing process.

It MAY help the criminal justice system obtain a conviction. But, that does NOTHING to help the victim. All the pics/vids do is make a better witness statement.

[NateKirk]

Just because you decide to whip out your phone to collect evidence does not mean that you are only limited to that. If the situation gets out of hand you still have the choice of intervening. However if you honestly have no idea what is going on it may be best to call emergency services, and either record the situation or ask what's going on before jumping to conclusions.

As civilians we do not have the authority that law enforcement does, so we have to err on the side of caution.

Also, as far as what help being a good witness provides, it can help prevent future problems by aid law enforcement in catching criminals. This helps society as a whole. It can also help the victim or their families as well, because if the person is caught then they can possibly sue for compensation for medical expenses, property loss/ damage, etc. I'm not a lawyer though of course...

[Sharkbite]

It can also help the victim or their families as well, because if the person is caught then they can possibly sue for compensation for medical expenses, property loss/ damage, etc.

Post assault financial compensation is no comfort to the victims relatives if the victim is killed and little comfort to the crippled or permanently injured

How exactly you would recover ANY compensation from a couple of street Urchins like those in the vid above, is also debatable.

That victim needs REAL help...RIGHT then. Not a video of what happened after the fact

[FireForged]

Its not likely I am going to get physically involved in the conflicts of other people. I will call the police and offer general information to 911 but unless I know exactly what is happening, what has happened, and who the primary aggressor is and unless I am confident that innocent life will be forfeit [right now] if I fail to get involved... I will likely walk away. That's just me

[JohnKSa]

It doesn't matter to me what started the fight or who is to blame. The person trying to smash the other head into the pavement..kicking a downed person....choking...stabbing... ANYTHING that is likely to kill or maim the other, needs to be stopped.

By this logic, if someone were to arrive on the scene as you are shooting at the attackers, they would have to shoot you. And someone arriving as they were shooting you would have to shoot them.

It most certainly does matter who started the fight and who is to blame. Otherwise anyone using deadly force under any circumstances, even in self-defense, would be justifying the use of deadly force against themselves since it "doesn't matter what started the fight or who is to blame".

[JohnKSa]

On second thought, I think that's it for this one.

The title of this subforum is "Tactics & Training", not "Why my personal code of conduct is obviously far superior and yours is reprehensible"