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Old October 28, 2018, 06:23 PM   #26
jimbob86
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The skills to shoot a small .380 are no different than the skills to shoot a 10mm. One should be masterful enough that the practice does not have to be gun/ammo specific, but skilled enough that no matter what the platform, the skills are transferable.
While the fundamentals are the same, it is pretty much accepted that one should practice with the gun they carry. The cost difference is significant.
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Old October 28, 2018, 07:38 PM   #27
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and practice ammo for these other chamberings are 2 to 3 times what 9mm costs.
Never have bought .25 or .32 but .380 range ammo easy to find at $.18-.20 or so per round, 9mm about $.14-$.16 or so..
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Old October 28, 2018, 07:41 PM   #28
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it is pretty much accepted that one should practice with the gun they carry.
And you can do 80 percent of practice with a gun without actually shooting it.
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Old October 29, 2018, 02:10 AM   #29
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The best arguments against the traditional semi-auto mousegun chamberings (.380, .32 and .25 auto , etc.) are that there are now 9mm guns out there of similar size and weight and practice ammo for these other chamberings are 2 to 3 times what 9mm costs. The difference between them, on a cost basis, is significant if one actually PRACTICES: It's not a talisman and only works if you have the skills to get it into action and make hits. That doesn't happen without expending ammo on a regular basis, and if you are going to burn a $100 to shoot a couple boxes of ammo every time you go to the range, you are less likely to go than if it only costs you $50.
There are no 9mm's the size of a .25 or even a modern pocket .32 for that matter. If you can effectively carry and shoot the 9mm, great, but if not and you need that smaller pistol, the mouseguns are not totally incapable.

While I wouldn't willingly go below .32, I know the right .22 or .25 shot in the right place will do the job.
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Old October 29, 2018, 02:11 AM   #30
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Nope, never said that. I like the 44 Special alot, the 45 Colt. I have no use for the 38 Special. If for whatever reason that is all you can handle, carry on.

Yep, carry the most powerful gun you can conceal and shoot well. I usually carry my Glock 31C loaded with these.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/collec...=7865900990521



On the street, the .380 works about as well as a 38 Special. I consider both to be the minimum acceptable.
Well, I think we finally found common ground on something.
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Old October 29, 2018, 03:58 PM   #31
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Don't be silly, Nanuk. It is actually quite easy to break contact in a civilian situation- just like in the Army. One need only hold one's pistol upside down and over one's shoulder while running and shooting!
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Old October 30, 2018, 10:29 AM   #32
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I just stumbled upon these videos as well.

Chris does a great job of breaking down a topic and presenting the pros/cons therein.

His hammer-fired pistol series was great as well, I look forward to his "pocket pistol/ mouse gun" series.

I do like the idea of "we're poking holes in people with handguns" the main goal is to get out alive, if the attacker runs off that's a success. Interesting way to view the bottom line...
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Old October 31, 2018, 11:33 AM   #33
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The skills to master a small pocket are quite a bit different than a 10mm. The small size is harder to draw, the short barrel and recoil from a pocket gun is a huge difference. Yes, the same kind of drills. Fast drawing, point and shoot skills, double taps, etc. Good Pocket gun skills are IMO should be for the advanced shooter.
Of course just burning ammo is not a guarantee, but at the same time, you have to shoot often and be diligent at training. I have been shooting these gun on a regular basis for over 10 years. They require a commitment to shoot well. They require a unique skill set.

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Old October 31, 2018, 11:51 AM   #34
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For the group, I offer:

http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne...erent-problems

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/is-...et-gun-enough/

I have taken Claude Werner's snubby class. I shoot regularly a G42 or a J frame in IDPA or in a specific short range match by Eric Lamberton:

http://www.sensibleselfdefense.com/category-s/1836.htm

I shot pretty decently for accuracy. I am a fat sloth on time.

Thus, I have familiarity with the issue.

My bottom line is that I carry the smaller guns when dress or circumstance mandate. The majority of time, it is a Glock 26 or 19.

I have repeatedly said that if I can, I prepare for the anomaly of an intensive incident and not the cliche of scaring away a single opponent.
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Old November 1, 2018, 12:17 PM   #35
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My issue w/ the vid - is Caliber.

- Mil/LEO - Shoot their way Into Trouble.
- Civilians - Shoot their way Out of Trouble.

The targets are the same, as are the stopping requirements.

So:

- Different ammo carry/capacity requirements.
- Same Caliber requirements.


Therefor:

- My minimum CCW is a 6+1 9mm/147gr. (Sig P938)
- My EDC CCW is a 6+1 .45 ACP/230gr. (GLOCK G36)




Red
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Old November 1, 2018, 05:23 PM   #36
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My new favortie "mouse gun"! Sig P230 SL.
While not the smallest, it is so thin that it is very easy to carry, and boy is this piece accurate! Very smooth trigger, very good sights, and did I say accurate.

Took it with me to the range today and the photo is three magazines full, around 17 rounds at 7 yards. A two inch group with one operator flyer. Free hand and slow to medium rate of fire.

so far, this Sig has been flawless in function. Just cheap federal range ammo, but not one hiccup. I was using the 8 round Bersa magazines as well. These are almost the same size as the Sig 7 round, so I'm getting 9 rounds of super accurate .380 in a compact gun. What's not to like.

I shot some +P BuffaloBore .380 90 grain through it and was getting the same muzzle energy as low end 9mm. With shot placement and proper ammo, I feel well equipped with this gun.

Wow, I love this gun!
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Old November 2, 2018, 08:40 AM   #37
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I no longer own a 230SL but agree it is a beautiful, accurate, and easy to shoot pistol. It is very robust but do you have any concerns that +P Buffalo Bore producing low end 9mm ballistics might be a bit too energetic for the recoil spring in that blowback pistol?
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Old November 2, 2018, 09:56 AM   #38
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I don't think a few rounds would be bad, but they do make heavier power springs for it.
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Old November 3, 2018, 10:16 PM   #39
Carl the Floor Walker
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Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch View Post
My new favortie "mouse gun"! Sig P230 SL.
While not the smallest, it is so thin that it is very easy to carry, and boy is this piece accurate! Very smooth trigger, very good sights, and did I say accurate.

Took it with me to the range today and the photo is three magazines full, around 17 rounds at 7 yards. A two inch group with one operator flyer. Free hand and slow to medium rate of fire.

so far, this Sig has been flawless in function. Just cheap federal range ammo, but not one hiccup. I was using the 8 round Bersa magazines as well. These are almost the same size as the Sig 7 round, so I'm getting 9 rounds of super accurate .380 in a compact gun. What's not to like.

I shot some +P BuffaloBore .380 90 grain through it and was getting the same muzzle energy as low end 9mm. With shot placement and proper ammo, I feel well equipped with this gun.

Wow, I love this gun!
Nice looking gun. Do they still manufacturer them?
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Old November 3, 2018, 10:56 PM   #40
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sig no longer imports them, but you should be able to find a nice used one for sale given some patience. I passed at least half a dozen opportunities before I found this one for 450.00! I jumped on it pronto.
This one is the SL version, all stainless and a little heavier at 20 oz.
But it's so thin, it carries nicely.
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Old November 4, 2018, 08:10 AM   #41
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Nice looking gun. Do they still manufacturer them?
Might look at the Ruger LC-9S..very similar shape and thin-ness, IMHO. Not expensive..Not a treat to shoot, to me, but might look at it if you are looking for a small, thin 9mm EDC gun.
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Old November 9, 2018, 01:36 AM   #42
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Truncated cone round for the 25acp and 32acp

There are several FP FMJ rounds for the 380, so tha caliber is covered.

I think a truncated cone FMJ round with the bullet weight slightly reduced to raise the velocity to 1,000 fps would set both the 25 and 32 acp up with a more destructive bullet shape and deep straight line penetration.
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Old November 9, 2018, 07:46 AM   #43
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I'm tired of a premise that comes up in these debates summed up by

"I'll stick with a full size Glock or Magnum revolver"

That is fine. Its a wonderful conclusion and for those who chose it a fine choice. But what premise does it imply? That somehow those guarantee success while a "mouse gun" doesn't. With respect to the "you don't understand risk analysis" argument which frankly I still see as too narrowly defining the risk one should prepare for to the point of being a card stacking argument there is a good chance that you will never need ANY gun in civilian life. There is an even better chance if you do need a gun ANY gun will result in the same outcome.

Are there scenarios where a full size Glock will result in a better outcome than a mouse gun? Yes there are. But, IMO, those scenarios are over hyped by various gun games.

Carry a gun, be competent with the gun you carry, and chose a gun that you can carry in a manner that you will actually be carrying it should you need it.
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Old November 9, 2018, 08:19 AM   #44
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Nope, never said that. I like the 44 Special alot, the 45 Colt. I have no use for the 38 Special. If for whatever reason that is all you can handle, carry on.
It is sometimes more a matter of what a person prefers than what they can handle. I have no problem handling 357 or 44 or 44 mag or 45LC or 45AR or 45acp and own handguns in all those formats but prefer 38 S&W, 38 Special, 9mm Kurz, 9mm Mak and 9mm Parabellum.
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Old November 9, 2018, 12:46 PM   #45
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No matter what it is, a Big Gulp, or just a 7oz glass of water, there will always be the bigger the better crowd. No matter that many 380 cartridges meet the FBI defense standards.
For myself, the 380 is for small guns and I could care less what some 357 guy say's strutting around the range. It works for me, I trust it. Yes, I carry other guns and calibers as well. But for a pocket gun, they make mighty fine defensive tool.

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Old November 9, 2018, 02:48 PM   #46
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Thank you, Lohman-for stating what I was thinking.
It seems to be very difficult to converse about guns with men. They all consider themselves natural-born experts on guns and calibers.
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Old November 10, 2018, 01:34 AM   #47
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No matter what it is, a Big Gulp, or just a 7oz glass of water, there will always be the bigger the better crowd. No matter that many 380 cartridges meet the FBI defense standards.
For myself, the 380 is for small guns and I could care less what some 357 guy say's strutting around the range. It works for me, I trust it. Yes, I carry other guns and calibers as well. But for a pocket gun, they make mighty fine defensive tool.
Yeah, when I see all those who drive in Ford Super Duty's and Chevy Heavy Duty's with nothing in the bed or being towed, I ask myself why they're not driving a Ford Ranger or Chevy Colorado because when it comes down to it, they're both empty trucks. It's the notorious BIG concept, gotta feel superior.

I'm happy with my Taurus PT-22, driving my 4.6L small block V8 2WD F150 driving to go look at a Geo Metro that gets 50 mpg and is so small I could put in a shed during winter.
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Old November 10, 2018, 06:36 AM   #48
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HVR - That's a nice Sig! I have an ugly one that was a police trade-in, but it's still a good shooter. It's a much more elegant and refined pistol than my Beretta 84 or my Makarov.
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Old November 10, 2018, 10:39 AM   #49
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Thanks! A blue sig 230 0r 232 is on my wish list as well as a Beretta 85.
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Old November 10, 2018, 11:41 AM   #50
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We are going around in in circles with the same old arguments.

Unless you have something new to say, rather than announcing that you are correct in your analysis with the same old arguments, let's let it die.

No need to keep this on trucking with critiques of various masculine display behavior.

Hint!
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