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Old June 20, 2017, 01:41 PM   #1
Ike666
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Pediatrics: 1300 children a year killed by guns

Fowler, KA et al. (2017) PEDIATRICS Volume 140, number 1, July 2017

They're at it again with the hyperbole.

But 493 (38%) are suicides, 82 unintentional, and 693 (53%) are homicides. 29 are undetermined or due to legal intervention.

While this is not good it is also not 1300 homicides a year as many of the news reports are representing it.

Of the homicides, 543 (78.4%) are committed by 13-17 year olds; and 77% are committed by African Americans or Hispanics (the demographic most likely to be involved in gang violence).

From the graphics, Illinois and Louisiana have the highest juvenile homicide rates. We know about Chicago (which undoubtedly drives the data for Illinois) and Louisiana - Southern Culture of Violence?

The 543 homicides committed by 13-17 year olds is a place to make gains.

To reduce gun suicides by juveniles, I think the burden is on gun owners and secure storage.

Moms Demand Action is going to spin this one.

link to original article:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...peds.2016-3486
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Last edited by Ike666; June 20, 2017 at 01:42 PM. Reason: add link
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Old June 20, 2017, 05:45 PM   #2
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Now let's look at the numbers of how many die from the 17 or 18 more prevalent causes of death in the US and see how the numbers compare.
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Old June 20, 2017, 06:27 PM   #3
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How many of the homicides were gang bangers who were lawfully killed by police officers in the performance of their dutues? How many were gang bangers who were killed as a result of failure of the victim selection process?

Remember, "homicide" only means a human was killed. "Homicide" does not equal "murder."
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Old June 20, 2017, 07:14 PM   #4
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I don't trust their # because they like the CDC and AMA are politically motivated. in the 90's the CDC came out with their set of numbers and a juvenile was any one under 26 years old, that info came out about a month later.
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Old June 20, 2017, 07:56 PM   #5
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Let's not get too carried away. I read the article and it is nothing but a statement of facts. Based on what I've observed there is no reason to doubt the numbers.

They make no recommendations for more gun control, and even point out that the root of the problem is violence.

Quote:
Findings based on the NVDRS data indicate that firearm homicides among older children were more likely to be precipitated by another crime, to be gang-related, and to have drug involvement, which is consistent with other research on youth violence.19 As seen in this and other studies, younger children are often “caught in the crossfire,” whether as innocent bystanders to community violence or during incidents of intimate partner violence and family conflict.20 Previous research indicates that these “corollary victims” may be killed in an act of retaliation against an intimate partner of the perpetrator20 and are much more likely to be killed in a homicide followed by suicide of the perpetrator compared with older children and the general population of homicide victims.21
Instead of burying our heads in the sand and thinking everyone is out to get us we should be using this information to help reduce the numbers even further. The article even points out that the trend is downward.

Quote:
unintentional firearm deaths among children declined from 2002 to 2014 and firearm homicides declined from 2007 to 2014, firearm suicides decreased between 2002 and 2007 and then showed a significant upward trend from 2007 to 2014.
Overall this is good news, but the recent spike in suicides is a concern. And the suicide problem is real. We average about 1 teenager per year in one of our local middle or high schools who commit suicide every year. And this is a small school system.

The fact is that a lot of kids die from guns. WE can choose to do something to reduce the numbers or someone else will find ways to reduce the numbers in a way most of us find unacceptable.

As an analogy. I started teaching hunter safety classes here in GA in 1986. At that time we were losing 1-3 hunters every year to gun accidents and many more injuries. Because of a lot of effort teaching firearms safety those numbers are WAAAAAY down. Not just in GA, but nationwide. In fact we only lose a hunter to gunfire once every few years now. The most common cause of death is falling from elevated stands or heart related illnesses. As hunters we took on the problem head on and made a difference instead of pretending it didn't exist. The firearms community as a whole needs to do the same.
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Old June 21, 2017, 06:31 AM   #6
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Too bad we don't have "likes" on this board.

I'd give one to jmr40.
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Old June 21, 2017, 08:50 AM   #7
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As would I
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Old June 21, 2017, 09:42 AM   #8
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Ditto for me.
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Old June 21, 2017, 10:01 AM   #9
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+1 to JMR40!!

I work very closely with a lot of therapists, and the number of kids (and adults) that are struggling with depression, anger, attachment disorders, hormonal imbalances, etc... is staggering. Even with this information we can say "bunch of babies! Such it up and bunch the cyber bullies in the face!" well that is all well and good... but again, this is the situation we find ourselves in. Its like surviving a plane crash and whining about how they don't make planes the way they used to! Not helpful, lets survive FIRST!!!

The best advice I can give to stem the tide is to get involved with kids. Go to family range days. Work with your local youth group. Volunteer at the YMCA. It doesn't take too much, but unfortunately "best wishes and thoughts" don't help anyone without action! You can also support schools in getting the training for staff that they need to identify these issues.
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Old June 21, 2017, 11:37 AM   #10
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Aquila Blanca:
Quote:
How many of the homicides were gang bangers who were lawfully killed by police officers in the performance of their dutues? How many were gang bangers who were killed as a result of failure of the victim selection process?
I thought that same question when the two leading states for homicide were Illinois (Chicago-heavy stat, I reckon) and Louisiana (Big E). I think that if you broke the stats down by age of victim, you'd see that homicide/suicide dominate the teenage years while accidents tend to taper off in that age range. I wonder what the comparison would look like if you compared gun-related injuries/deaths to car-related injuries and deaths among the teenagers.

I hate reading the stories of kids getting guns for their birthday and shooting a friend. Just so wrong.

JMR40 is always a useful read.
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Old June 21, 2017, 12:05 PM   #11
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Not a single kid (or anybody else)has ever been killed by any firearm. A firearm is an inanimate object that cannot do anything by itself.
"...the burden is on gun owners and..." Law abiding gun owners are not responsible for other people's kids. It's the legislators who refuse to enact effective laws to stop those 13 - 17 year olds who are committing crimes. And it's the parents of those kids who fail to provide a law abiding example. Especially for a 13 year old minor who they are supposed to be responsible for.
There's something wrong with the link. It's at the originating end though.
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Old June 21, 2017, 03:40 PM   #12
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Instead of conjecture, read the article

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Old June 21, 2017, 04:07 PM   #13
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I may regret saying this... but I am tired of people playing the 'in-animate object' card.

True, guns don't kill people.

People kill people. And I honestly believe that some people are not responsible enough to handle the responsibility of handling a firearm. Some people shouldn't drive. Some people shouldn't be around sharp objects. Geez, I know some people that should be around BLUNT objects, lol .

My guns are awesome, I love them. They are a lot of fun. I also have kids. I am smart enough to NEVER trust 'oh they won't find it there' 'oh my kid would never hurt themselves' 'oh my kid knows better'... The numbers are trending down, but why does that mean we shouldn't discuss how to trend down faster?

As gun owners we should be LEADING the discussion on gun safety. We know that removing guns from responsible law-abiding citizens isn't the answer... but the questions are still there and should be discussed! One side of the argument says get rid of all the guns! The other side says 20 guns for everyone! There has to be meaningful discussion about real answers to these real issues.

Sorry, I'm ranting now
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Old June 21, 2017, 04:24 PM   #14
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Rpseraph.....like!

To me, this comes down to training. Without a mandated licensing system, how do we mandate the training? Since I STRONGLY oppose licensing and cataloging gun owners, it has to go in to the public schools right next to the nearly universal condom training. It is a piece of public health information that we need in public schools just like exercise, sex ed, nutrition, etc.

What is the training?
- Eddie the Eagle at young ages

- violence avoidance. Kids need to spend more time thinking about avoiding violence.

- safe handling

- basic marksmanship with live fire

That should have some impact on accidental deaths and "shot in the butt" outcomes. Heck, if bangers could hit what they were shooting at, it might lower the homicide rate a lot!


Chicago likely needs it's own countermeasure like federal policing or martial law. Without a military style insurgency sweep, how do we ever expect to clean up Chicago?
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Old June 21, 2017, 04:51 PM   #15
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Many people say "it's not about numbers", on both sides of the issue. And then numbers always get cited.

What I find interesting is that as "guns" become more evil and taboo, and more popular culture acceptable in TV shows and films, information about them is treated as Mein Kampf- don't read it, kids! We don't speak of it and we don't acknowledge it in Joe Public's home. Somehow this promotes 'safety'.

Meanwhile, sex ed and distributing condoms as a way to fight AIDS is normal now.

How knowledge and education favorably impacts one problem but is not pursued for another is puzzling.
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Old June 21, 2017, 09:46 PM   #16
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The most disturbing trend is the increase in the suicide rate the last few years as shown in Figure 2 of the article. Rates for homicides and unintentional deaths are down. So what lesson does that teach us?

Maybe, those of us who are parents should be more sensitive to what our teenagers and young adults are doing and saying and take some appropriate action. That doesn't necessarily mean professional counseling, though it might. It might be as simple as locking up every gun you own so your child cannot access them. I took the precaution of doing this when one of my college-aged children showed some signs of depression. The signs passed in due course of time.

FWIW, there's a number of online resources about spotting signs of depression and suicide. Here's one: https://www.helpguide.org/articles/d...depression.htm
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Old June 22, 2017, 10:07 AM   #17
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Today's modern world really is hard on young people who often don't have a clear path laid out before them. These cases are tragic but I don't think they should be our focus, suicide really has nothing to do with guns. No one would suggest that we ban sleeping pills just because a few unfortunate souls preferred that method. Furthermore banning guns isn't going to eliminate suicide and everyone knows that.

More concerning to me and a stronger argument against gun control are the numbers on "found a gun, had an accident". Accidents with guns can't happen if no one has guns, so an argument for bans has legs. Be careful where you leave your guns!
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Old June 22, 2017, 03:00 PM   #18
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Quote:
To me, this comes down to training. Without a mandated licensing system, how do we mandate the training?
I think there's a question that needs to be addressed, before this one, and that is..

DO WE MANDATE TRAINING??

And, please, take a moment to stop and think about it, before answering.

Because, it is not JUST a matter of safety. Also think about the fact that if it is done, HOW it is done matters at least as much, if not more, than WHY it is done.

I get a personal burn anytime I see anyone, on our side, or theirs using the phrase "killed by guns". I know its "just a figure of speech" but its a deliberately misleading one. If someone tosses you off a 19th floor balcony, you aren't killed by gravity.
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Old June 22, 2017, 07:59 PM   #19
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Thirteen hundred is too many, but I thought the number would be higher since “We lose 93 million Americans a day to gun violence."
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Old June 23, 2017, 09:28 AM   #20
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Quote:
“We lose 93 million Americans a day to gun violence."
OK, I gotta ask, where did that one come from???

Please answer soon, because IF it's true, there will be no one left next week!!
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Old June 23, 2017, 09:48 AM   #21
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I think the Governor of Virginia said that after the attempted assassination of Republican Congressman.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/14/politi...ing/index.html
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Old June 23, 2017, 10:59 AM   #22
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This is what the numbers look like of the real tragedies that we all want to prevent. Looks like were off to a great start!

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Old June 23, 2017, 11:05 AM   #23
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1300 children usually includes up to age 20, servicemen in war zones, gang members killing each other and cops killing criminals. The number of deaths left are teen suicides and accidents.
If we are going to use statistics we should define what a child is first. At 18 you can sign a legal contract so not a child. Next exclude self defense shootings by cops and the general public. It would also be advisable to exclude suicide and accidents because they are not really criminal acts.
Then we can get a realistic figure of violent gun deaths of children.
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Old June 23, 2017, 12:13 PM   #24
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Paragraph 1:
OBJECTIVES: Examine fatal and nonfatal firearm injuries among children aged 0 to 17 in the United States, including intent, demographic characteristics, trends, state-level patterns, and circumstances.
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Old June 23, 2017, 12:56 PM   #25
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Quote:
1300 children usually includes up to age 20, servicemen in war zones, gang members killing each other and cops killing criminals. The number of deaths left are teen suicides and accidents.
You obviously did not even glance at the article.
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