Special Operators Getting A New Round For Their Precision Rifles And An 'Assault' Machine Gun.

[ed308]

Special Operators Getting A New Round For Their Precision Rifles And An 'Assault' Machine Gun. I know, another one of those articles. But these keep coming which makes me believe changes will happen eventually.

Anyway, here it is:

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...lt-machine-gun

[RC20]

Certainly a lot in motion (pun)

Keeping in mind my long held belief that the 30 caliber 30-40.06/7.62 were vasly beyond 99.999% standard rifleman to shoot.

There was an area use of 30 caliber machine guns with the right ammo that did have doctrinal use out at 2500 yards.

The 5.56 was ill conceived with no research and a knee jerk reaction to a conscript army (UIS) jungles and the fear of a 30 round AK that could not hit the broad side of a barn (out gunned is the term)

The 6.5 creed, 260 Remington and that area are actual a sweed spot (pun intended as they were the first) of range, lethality (they kill a LOT of moose in Sweden and vicinity with that round)

The drop and terminal affect of a 5.56 out past 200 yard are poor.

Throw in the desire by the military to carry unitary ammo loads and they want penetration (which then just pokes holes through people).

5.56 does not tumble unless it meets the right velocity and bullet size (the 62 grin is not it) and you have an M4 that makes it worse (note the original 20 inch M16?) - great at 100, marginal at 200 and falling off badly at 300.

CTA and the like maybe eventually.

Note that the Marines did a sneaky and got an all new gun by going the Mk-27 route and they are shifting more and more to them.

Still 5.56, but a better 5.56.

[T. O'Heir]

"...The 5.56 was ill conceived..." It wasn't ever designed to be a battle rifle cartridge. Designed as an air crew survival cartridge. The U.S. military had it and the M-16 jammed down it's throat by McNamara who though the rifle was sexy. Just like the rest of NATO.
Don't believe all the nonsense published on-line. "Assault Machinegun" is as stupid a media hack invented term as 'assault rifle'.

[stagpanther]

Interesting article that makes (some) sense to me. As much as I like the creedmoor--one of it's main strengths--in a civilian rifle--is the ability to seat a wide variety of bullets long (thus accommodating some really high performance bullets). I have my doubts about how durable and reliable that would be in critical combat heavy continuous use--but that's just a WAG since I have no knowledge or experience in that arena.

[gshayd]

Its about the weight that a Soldier has to hump as LPCs are their primary mode of transportation.

[PatientWolf]

"Assault Machine Gun" sounds like a term made up to justify calling a semi automatic an "Assault Rifle".

[gshayd]

If I had to choose between a 6.5 and a 5.56 machine gun I would take the 6.5. I was a trainer who was sent to the train the trainer for the initial fielding of the SAW. I wasn't impressed.

[stagpanther]

I actually think the article makes clear that what they are aiming for is something in a mid-weight yet reasonably portable platform between the existing 5.56 and the ship-anchor weight 50 cal. that fits in the area where the rifle like the draganov is "perplexing" our troops.

[44 AMP]

"...The 5.56 was ill conceived..." It wasn't ever designed to be a battle rifle cartridge. Designed as an air crew survival cartridge.

The 5.56mm (.223 Rem) was not designed as an aircrew survival cartridge, either.

It was actually created to be a "work around" to a specific Army requirement.

Stoner's prototype AR-15s were made in .222 Remington. (the commercial varmint round, and a round that was also dominating the benchrest scene at the time.

Gen LeMay was looking for a new gun for his Air Force SP's. The Air Force got its small arms, and support for them, from the Army. At the time, the Air Force Security Police were using primarily the M1 Carbine. The Army was dropping the M1 Carbine. This meant that very soon there would be no M1 Carbines, and equally important, no more Carbine parts, for the Air Force.

Gen LeMay was introduced to the AR-15, and thought it would be a good choice to guard his SAC bases. He looked into buying some.

This resulted in the MacNamara defense dept. looking at it, and making noises about how it would be a good choice for the standard infantry rifle.

A number of people in the Army thought this was a bad idea, and sought to derail the project. They set a standard for bullet weight, range, and velocity that was just outside what could be done with the .222 Rem round in the AR.

That arbitrary standard could be met, however, buy the .222 Rem Mag.
But the .222 Rem Mag was just a little bit too long to work in the AR rifle. So, it looked like the goal of stopping the AR would be met.

Until some other Army folks developed the 5.56x45mm round, which could meet the Army requirement, AND would fit and work in the AR rifle. With the only "valid" objection overcome the "whiz kids" in the Defense Dept. were able to ram the AR-15 and the 5.56mm down the Army's throat, as the new standard infantry rifle.

And here we are today.

I would caution all the speculation with a couple of points, first, SOCOM is a small force, with a budget and mission statement that lets them test all kinds of ideas, to see what works, and what doesn't.

And there is a big difference between what is useful for SOCOM does and what is needed for line troops. "Improved" weapons have to have enough of an advantage to justify their cost.

A few hundred, or even a few thousand gun for a special unit, the cost of the guns and their support (ammo, parts, TRAINING -and don't forget to include training for the repair guys, as well), this cost, is a pittance compared to reequipping then entire military.

Do remember it is the job of the people pushing each new idea to make it sound like the best possible thing we can do, no matter what the reality actually is.

[johnwilliamson062]

and don't forget to include training for the repair guys, as well

And to expand upon this, their armorers are probably much better skilled/experienced than the run of the mill parts changers. Probably very little training is really required.

Barrel life might become an issue moving to 6.5 CM or similar for general issue.

[Fishbed77]

"Assault Machinegun" is as stupid a media hack invented term as 'assault rifle'.

The term "assault rifle" was not invented by a media hack.

It was invented by the German military to describe the Sturmgewehr 44 (StG 44) infantry rifle. The term "Sturmgewehr" translates literally to "storm rifle" or "assault rifle," and this term came to be widely and correctly used to describe the class of weapons for which the StG 44 was a template - select-fire rifles with a detachable magazine firing an intermediate cartridge.

The lies and misdirection perpetrated by the media and certain politicians was to label firearms that do not fall into this class as "assault rifles," and to further create the nebulous term "assault weapon," which does not describe any weapon type at all, but is used to label certain cosmetic features, most of which have little or no bearing on lethality or performance of a particular firearm.


.

[RC20]

44 AMP:

Great summation. No thought went into it and stuck with it ever since.

And like the USAF could not have contracted out a Carbine mfg. Shoot, a lever action 30-030 would be good for what they do (or an AK, grin)

Werid stuff Maynard.

[44 AMP]

And like the USAF could not have contracted out a Carbine mfg.

Actually, there was no one to contract out to. M1 carbine production essentially ended at the end of WWII. There were no commercial firms making M1 carbines at the time. The civilian manufacture of M1 carbines (or guns that looked virtually identical but were not fully parts interchangeable) didn't happen until after the military released M1 carbines and ammo to the public.

And that happened after the M16 was already a "done deal" and adopted.

Remember, at one time the headline could have read, "Army considers adopting new .276 Pedersen to replace .30-06!!"

In many ways it would have been ballistically and logistically superior to the '06. Didn't happen. Because the .276 Pedersen wasn't superior enough, in those areas to over come the economic costs of adoption.

[johnwilliamson062]

I doubtit would have been all that difficult to find someone willing to produce carbines again. Not that I think that would have been a good idea. As loved as the carbine is, I certainly wouldn't't want to carry one.

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