45 ACP Help Needed

browninghunter86 · April 22, 2013, 11:10 PM

I am new to pistol reloading. Anyone use these bullets that would mind telling me what OAL I should be starting at as a guide?
http://www.rozedist.com/mm5/merchant...Code=ZBJ-45ACP

My factory WW Ranger Ts drop right in. These at a length of 1.207" do not drop in like the rangers do.

ANY HELP WOULD BE APPRECIATED

joneb · April 23, 2013, 02:22 AM

Different ogive. Seat deeper until the round head spaces correctly, and adjust the charge accordingly.
I find the max COL and seat .005-.01" deeper for jacketed bullets.
For lead bullets I seat them closer to the max COL.

Misssissippi Dave · April 23, 2013, 06:41 AM

I have used 1.2 to 1.220" for my OAL with 185 grain JHP bullets. They were not Zero bullets but I doubt that would be a problem normally. Have you measured to see if you removed the flair you put on the case to seat the bullet? It is possible just checking this could fix things. Measure the case at the mouth with bullet seated and crimped. Measure the diameter again about 1/8" from the case mouth towards the head again. It should be the same. If the case mouth measurement is larger you may not have remove enough of the bell/flair you placed on the case to seat the bullet. You should only need to crimp enough to remove the flair in the case. Excessive crimping can bulge the case enough that it won't drop in the barrel.

browninghunter86 · April 23, 2013, 08:55 AM

thanks I will take a look at that and see what I get. I was having trouble determining how much flare to put on the case mouth but think I have that ok now. (At first I could feel the bullet being forced into the case, almost like a bump feeling as the bullet was going in. I turned die in very small increments until that feeling went away and the bullet seated smoothly.) Not sure until I measure but my seating die set up, I turned in the die about 1/8 turn after set up to give me a slight crimp.

Misssissippi Dave · April 23, 2013, 08:29 PM

I only flair the case mouth enough to let the bullet stand up on top of the case to seat it. I normally don't load lead bullets and that seems to be enough. Lead bullets will need a little more flair than jacketed bullets do. It is also easier to not over crimp jacketed bullets.

Many people set the crimp die by putting a sized die in the crimp station then hand tightening the die until it makes contact with the case. Add a 1/4 to 1/2 turn of the die once that is reached. Next you take the case you used to set the crimp die (no primer or powder) and use it to adjust the flair. Next comes the seating adjustment until it seats the bullet to the proper depth. Finally crimp the bullet. Now you have a dummy load to check with either your gauge or the barrel of your pistol. The round should drop in completely with its own weight and when you tip up the barrel it should fall out.

It does vary a little depending on the press you are using. I think you might get the idea. Most presses come with instructions to set the dies up. Even if you got a used press, often there are instructions you can download on the manufacture's website. With those instructions the slight differences will probably be easier to make.

Over all length is normally a matter of seating the bullet deep enough to allow you to fill the magazine full with your dummy round at the bottom and being to remove them by hand without it jamming up. Then you take the dummy load and drop it into the barrel and press it fully in it. Remove it to see if there are any markers from the rifling. No marks and you are almost done. Load the dummy round in an empty magazine and put it in the pistol you have put back together. Release the slide lever to see if it chambers. Pull back the slide to see if it ejects. All these things work you are ready to start making test loads to find out how much powder you need to use to make ammo your pistol likes.

It isn't really difficult to do after you have done it once. The first time getting things set up right is always harder to do. After that you probably have found all the things that might give you trouble and what you have to do to fix it. If you don't plan to change the dies or bullets often I suggest making notes for yourself to remind you what works and what doesn't to get the results you are looking for.

57K · April 23, 2013, 09:04 PM

I use the ZERO 230 gr. JHP rather than the 185. M. Dave makes some good points, but in my case, I load and shoot as many 200 gr. SWCs as I do JHPs. My flare works for either bullet and all you need is enough so that you can stand the bullet on top of the casemouth so that it will sit on its own.

The method for taper crimping that I recommend is a simple mathematical formula. If you're using cases with multiple headstamps, use the formula for your thickest cases, measured within about 1mm from the casemouth, and use .002" of taper crimp for jacketed bullets and .001" for cast lead and some choose to only remove the flare for cast bullets. As an example for jacketed bullets, say you measure your brass thickness 1mm from the casemouth with your dial calipers and get a reading of .011". Take .011" X 2 = .022" add bullet diameter .451" = .473" which is the Max. spec for casemouth dia. and then subtract .002" and after taper crimping your cases should measure .471" at the casemouth.

Normally you want to determine OACL by YOUR pistols chamber. With the 185 gr. JHP you're not going to need to worry about them being too long so the "plunk" test Dave was talking about will work fine. When you drop a round into the chamber with the barrel removed from the pistol, muzzle down, you should hear a "plunk" when the casemouth hits the forward ledge of the chamber. Your rounds should also spin freely. If I were using the ZERO 185 gr. JHP, I'd probably look at 1.210" as a starting point for OACL.

browninghunter86 · April 23, 2013, 11:26 PM

I got the FL die set up and the expanding die. Bullets sit down in case mouth barely. Still getting the hang of the seater die and crimping. I am using the Lee Carbide 3 die set. No matter how I turn the die in to crimp the measurement at the case mouth on a loaded round I can not get it under 0.473". Am I missing something here? I did the method of touching the case mouth then getting the seating depth, then turning die in another 1/2 turn. Then adjusting seater plug for OAL desired.

**I have not had issues before crimping my 223 ammo. Been reloading rifle cartridges for over a year now.This pistol is something new to me and having learning issues getting everything just right to feel safe going out and testing loads

57K · April 24, 2013, 08:54 PM

I'm not a big fan of LEE dies, personally. If I were you, I would seat and crimp in 2 separate operations and see if you can't get the crimp below .473" at the casemouth. You'll also get more consistent OACLs.

Misssissippi Dave · April 24, 2013, 10:09 PM

The only thing I seat and crimp with a single die is for .38 special. I prefer to seat and crimp in separate stations. It does make it easier to make the adjustments properly. You can just get another single die that seats and crimps and remove the seating part. This leaves you with just a crimp die. I prefer Dillon dies but then I load on progressive presses. I would suggest you use your calipers to measure the diameter of one of the bullets you are loading and as mentioned measure the thickness of the case at the mouth. You double the thickness of the case mouth metal plus the diameter of the bullet to figure what is the minimum you need to crimp. Some bullets claim to be one size but measure something else. Case thickness may also vary depending on the manufacture. I have found some of the cheaper calipers are not always that accurate as well. Generally they are close enough for what is needed to do reloading. Getting the feel for how much pressure you should use with a caliper to get better readings sometimes takes a little practice.

superspirit · April 24, 2013, 10:32 PM

As others have said I prefer to seat and crimp in separate steps, I use RCBS dies but on all taper crimp cartridges like the 45 acp, I always use a lee factory crimp die. set the seat and crimp die as 57K said, just to seat then use the lee FCD to crimp. this process has worked well for me.

browninghunter86 · April 25, 2013, 11:02 AM

ok. So measured a few sized cases. FL sized case mouth is 0.469". How I have expanding die now flares case mouth out to 0.478 IIRC. Bullets are measuring 0.4525. Checked my loaded rounds and their measuring 0.4715 right at mouth

I am going to see if I can get my shooting friend to come over and help me set up the flaring die and the seater. I may be getting the LFCD after reading your suggestions and have heard great things about it.

**Unclenick** · April 25, 2013, 12:12 PM

Browninghunter86,

Set your caliper to 0.451" and turn the little thumb screw to lock the sliding jaw in place. Put a bullet nose into the jaw and turn it gently a few degrees to mark the bullet where the jaws make contact on each side. You can put some Magic Marker on the bullet first to make the marks more obvious. Now loosen the thumb screw and measure from the bullet base to each mark. Take the average of the two readings. Subtract 0.020". This is your seating depth.

To find COL:

COL = Case Length + Bullet Length - Seating Depth

Use the maximum length case, 0.898", for the case length.

This should be a good starting seating depth. You can probably seat out further until you start to headspace on the bullet, as shown third from left, below. This can improve accuracy.

As to flaring, you just want enough that you don't scrape the bullet on the way in. I prefer to use the Lyman M or Lyman Multi-expander die. The step these form in the case mouth gets the bullets started in straighter. It makes the bulge in the brass over the bullet base much more even in the finished round. plus you can use the step, which is bullet diameter, to decide when the flare at the top is starting to exceed that and is therefore lone enough.

Turbo6ta · April 25, 2013, 12:39 PM

Here are the various Case Mouth Widths I adjust too when loading .45 ACP FMJ ball ammo:

After Sizing: . . . .467"

After Flaring: . .. .472"

After Crimping: . .470" (using the Lee FCD)

browninghunter86 · April 25, 2013, 02:14 PM

Nick I will give this a try. As always helpful information. I think I may need to adjust my flare down slightly. And switch to a LFCD for crimping

Not 100% following the first part. Any photo of this being done. I am a visual learner

April 22, 2013, 11:10 PM	#1
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	45 ACP Help Needed I am new to pistol reloading. Anyone use these bullets that would mind telling me what OAL I should be starting at as a guide? http://www.rozedist.com/mm5/merchant...Code=ZBJ-45ACP My factory WW Ranger Ts drop right in. These at a length of 1.207" do not drop in like the rangers do. ANY HELP WOULD BE APPRECIATED

April 23, 2013, 08:29 PM	#5
Misssissippi Dave Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2009 Posts: 1,411	I only flair the case mouth enough to let the bullet stand up on top of the case to seat it. I normally don't load lead bullets and that seems to be enough. Lead bullets will need a little more flair than jacketed bullets do. It is also easier to not over crimp jacketed bullets. Many people set the crimp die by putting a sized die in the crimp station then hand tightening the die until it makes contact with the case. Add a 1/4 to 1/2 turn of the die once that is reached. Next you take the case you used to set the crimp die (no primer or powder) and use it to adjust the flair. Next comes the seating adjustment until it seats the bullet to the proper depth. Finally crimp the bullet. Now you have a dummy load to check with either your gauge or the barrel of your pistol. The round should drop in completely with its own weight and when you tip up the barrel it should fall out. It does vary a little depending on the press you are using. I think you might get the idea. Most presses come with instructions to set the dies up. Even if you got a used press, often there are instructions you can download on the manufacture's website. With those instructions the slight differences will probably be easier to make. Over all length is normally a matter of seating the bullet deep enough to allow you to fill the magazine full with your dummy round at the bottom and being to remove them by hand without it jamming up. Then you take the dummy load and drop it into the barrel and press it fully in it. Remove it to see if there are any markers from the rifling. No marks and you are almost done. Load the dummy round in an empty magazine and put it in the pistol you have put back together. Release the slide lever to see if it chambers. Pull back the slide to see if it ejects. All these things work you are ready to start making test loads to find out how much powder you need to use to make ammo your pistol likes. It isn't really difficult to do after you have done it once. The first time getting things set up right is always harder to do. After that you probably have found all the things that might give you trouble and what you have to do to fix it. If you don't plan to change the dies or bullets often I suggest making notes for yourself to remind you what works and what doesn't to get the results you are looking for. Last edited by Misssissippi Dave; April 23, 2013 at 08:42 PM.

April 25, 2013, 12:12 PM	#12
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Browninghunter86, Set your caliper to 0.451" and turn the little thumb screw to lock the sliding jaw in place. Put a bullet nose into the jaw and turn it gently a few degrees to mark the bullet where the jaws make contact on each side. You can put some Magic Marker on the bullet first to make the marks more obvious. Now loosen the thumb screw and measure from the bullet base to each mark. Take the average of the two readings. Subtract 0.020". This is your seating depth. To find COL: COL = Case Length + Bullet Length - Seating Depth Use the maximum length case, 0.898", for the case length. This should be a good starting seating depth. You can probably seat out further until you start to headspace on the bullet, as shown third from left, below. This can improve accuracy. As to flaring, you just want enough that you don't scrape the bullet on the way in. I prefer to use the Lyman M or Lyman Multi-expander die. The step these form in the case mouth gets the bullets started in straighter. It makes the bulge in the brass over the bullet base much more even in the finished round. plus you can use the step, which is bullet diameter, to decide when the flare at the top is starting to exceed that and is therefore lone enough. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

April 25, 2013, 02:14 PM	#14
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	Nick I will give this a try. As always helpful information. I think I may need to adjust my flare down slightly. And switch to a LFCD for crimping Not 100% following the first part. Any photo of this being done. I am a visual learner Last edited by browninghunter86; April 25, 2013 at 02:21 PM.

April 23, 2013, 02:22 AM	#2
joneb Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2005 Location: Central , OR Posts: 1,888	Different ogive. Seat deeper until the round head spaces correctly, and adjust the charge accordingly. I find the max COL and seat .005-.01" deeper for jacketed bullets. For lead bullets I seat them closer to the max COL.

April 23, 2013, 06:41 AM	#3
Misssissippi Dave Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2009 Posts: 1,411	I have used 1.2 to 1.220" for my OAL with 185 grain JHP bullets. They were not Zero bullets but I doubt that would be a problem normally. Have you measured to see if you removed the flair you put on the case to seat the bullet? It is possible just checking this could fix things. Measure the case at the mouth with bullet seated and crimped. Measure the diameter again about 1/8" from the case mouth towards the head again. It should be the same. If the case mouth measurement is larger you may not have remove enough of the bell/flair you placed on the case to seat the bullet. You should only need to crimp enough to remove the flair in the case. Excessive crimping can bulge the case enough that it won't drop in the barrel.

April 23, 2013, 08:55 AM	#4
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	thanks I will take a look at that and see what I get. I was having trouble determining how much flare to put on the case mouth but think I have that ok now. (At first I could feel the bullet being forced into the case, almost like a bump feeling as the bullet was going in. I turned die in very small increments until that feeling went away and the bullet seated smoothly.) Not sure until I measure but my seating die set up, I turned in the die about 1/8 turn after set up to give me a slight crimp.

April 23, 2013, 09:04 PM	#6
57K Junior member Join Date: March 2, 2013 Location: Heart of Texas Posts: 788	I use the ZERO 230 gr. JHP rather than the 185. M. Dave makes some good points, but in my case, I load and shoot as many 200 gr. SWCs as I do JHPs. My flare works for either bullet and all you need is enough so that you can stand the bullet on top of the casemouth so that it will sit on its own. The method for taper crimping that I recommend is a simple mathematical formula. If you're using cases with multiple headstamps, use the formula for your thickest cases, measured within about 1mm from the casemouth, and use .002" of taper crimp for jacketed bullets and .001" for cast lead and some choose to only remove the flare for cast bullets. As an example for jacketed bullets, say you measure your brass thickness 1mm from the casemouth with your dial calipers and get a reading of .011". Take .011" X 2 = .022" add bullet diameter .451" = .473" which is the Max. spec for casemouth dia. and then subtract .002" and after taper crimping your cases should measure .471" at the casemouth. Normally you want to determine OACL by YOUR pistols chamber. With the 185 gr. JHP you're not going to need to worry about them being too long so the "plunk" test Dave was talking about will work fine. When you drop a round into the chamber with the barrel removed from the pistol, muzzle down, you should hear a "plunk" when the casemouth hits the forward ledge of the chamber. Your rounds should also spin freely. If I were using the ZERO 185 gr. JHP, I'd probably look at 1.210" as a starting point for OACL.

April 23, 2013, 11:26 PM	#7
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	I got the FL die set up and the expanding die. Bullets sit down in case mouth barely. Still getting the hang of the seater die and crimping. I am using the Lee Carbide 3 die set. No matter how I turn the die in to crimp the measurement at the case mouth on a loaded round I can not get it under 0.473". Am I missing something here? I did the method of touching the case mouth then getting the seating depth, then turning die in another 1/2 turn. Then adjusting seater plug for OAL desired. **I have not had issues before crimping my 223 ammo. Been reloading rifle cartridges for over a year now.This pistol is something new to me and having learning issues getting everything just right to feel safe going out and testing loads

April 24, 2013, 08:54 PM	#8
57K Junior member Join Date: March 2, 2013 Location: Heart of Texas Posts: 788	I'm not a big fan of LEE dies, personally. If I were you, I would seat and crimp in 2 separate operations and see if you can't get the crimp below .473" at the casemouth. You'll also get more consistent OACLs.

April 24, 2013, 10:09 PM	#9
Misssissippi Dave Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2009 Posts: 1,411	The only thing I seat and crimp with a single die is for .38 special. I prefer to seat and crimp in separate stations. It does make it easier to make the adjustments properly. You can just get another single die that seats and crimps and remove the seating part. This leaves you with just a crimp die. I prefer Dillon dies but then I load on progressive presses. I would suggest you use your calipers to measure the diameter of one of the bullets you are loading and as mentioned measure the thickness of the case at the mouth. You double the thickness of the case mouth metal plus the diameter of the bullet to figure what is the minimum you need to crimp. Some bullets claim to be one size but measure something else. Case thickness may also vary depending on the manufacture. I have found some of the cheaper calipers are not always that accurate as well. Generally they are close enough for what is needed to do reloading. Getting the feel for how much pressure you should use with a caliper to get better readings sometimes takes a little practice.

April 24, 2013, 10:32 PM	#10
superspirit Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2013 Posts: 211	As others have said I prefer to seat and crimp in separate steps, I use RCBS dies but on all taper crimp cartridges like the 45 acp, I always use a lee factory crimp die. set the seat and crimp die as 57K said, just to seat then use the lee FCD to crimp. this process has worked well for me.

April 25, 2013, 11:02 AM	#11
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	ok. So measured a few sized cases. FL sized case mouth is 0.469". How I have expanding die now flares case mouth out to 0.478 IIRC. Bullets are measuring 0.4525. Checked my loaded rounds and their measuring 0.4715 right at mouth I am going to see if I can get my shooting friend to come over and help me set up the flaring die and the seater. I may be getting the LFCD after reading your suggestions and have heard great things about it.

April 25, 2013, 12:39 PM	#13
Turbo6ta Member Join Date: October 9, 2012 Location: SW Florida Posts: 27	Here are the various Case Mouth Widths I adjust too when loading .45 ACP FMJ ball ammo: After Sizing: . . . .467" After Flaring: . .. .472" After Crimping: . .470" (using the Lee FCD)