Need help with 147 M80 pulls

[Fire_Moose]

I'm having a hell of a time getting any sort of group with these. Is it the nature if the beast?

I'm using a 1:10 twist 24" bolt action 308.

I have vvn140, imr4895, and accurate2460

I THINK I can load em out to 2.775 but I need to check my data.

Please help thanks.

Sent from my CZ85 Combat

[oldpapps]

I love the 147 grain GI pulls.

They load easy. They chamber easy. Real world prices can't be beat. They have good down range ballistics.

I load or have loaded them for M1 Garand use, M1A/M14 use and 300 AAC Blackout use.

They are great..... At any time in my praise of these bullets, did I say anything about them being put together for precision accuracy? For the greater part, they are/were to be sprayed in bulk from M60s and mini-guns and 'close' is good enough.

This doesn't mean that some lots can't be very good (or very bad). If you don't want to mess with them, I'll send you my address..... I'll even pay the shipping

Enjoy them for what they are, good shooting bullets, not great shooting bullets.

Load with care,

OSOK

[Bart B.]

Those arsenal 7.62 NATO "pills" have been used by hundreds (thousands?) of folks in the British Commonwealth countries in fullbore long range matches. The best of them loaded by arsenals for competition shot almost as accurate as Sierra HPMK's.

But only when the barrel's groove diameter was a few thousandths smaller than theirs. Most arsenals (and commercial factory production of bullets for the military) make them a bit on the small side. I've mic'd several that were as small as .3070" diameter and most of those made in the USA have been around .3075". And some from Australia were .3084" made for their Palma matches. The Brits top barrel makers rifled them to a .3065" groove diameter and they shot those undersize bullets about MOA at 1000 yards in otherwise good arsenal ammo.

So, my guess is your barrel's too much oversize for the bullets you're shooting. If you can drive a .310" lead ball through it then put a calibrated mic on its wide part, compare that to the bullet's diameter you're using.

One other thing about shooting pulled bullets. If the area on them where a mechanicall puller collet grabbed them, they might be squeezed down enough to unbalance the bullet as well as make that part a bit out of round and undersized. This is more common with arsenal ammo which has 60 to 80 pounds of release force needed to get the bullet out of the case. Inertia tools typically do not damage bullets as the come out of the case mouth and bounce off a soft rubber cushion in the tool's chamber.

[medalguy]

I agree with oldpapps. I've loaded and shot many thousands of these bullets, but most of them went through a 1919A4 Browning so accuracy is not my primary considerartion. I have fired them in a FAL and M1A rifles and the accuracy is good enough for casual plinking, but they are not generally match quality even when new. I believe the mean accuracy of M80 ammo is something like 4 inches at 100 yards. Remember, all the military was looking for in these bullets was minute of torso accuracy.

[Jimro]

The Brits would mark the first production run of ball ammo through new dies as "sniper" lots for use by British military snipers. I don't know if these lots were also issued as match ammo. I do know that the brits have regularly won the International Palma matches using issued ammo.

FMJ bullets can be very accurate. However, due to the wear on bullet forming dies over the length of the part life the bases will get less and less precise. We had the same problem with our M72 match bullets, they would fly very good some years, and once the bullet forming die got worn groups would open up some (it should be noted that the dies were used until the bullets would not meet specs).

Short of getting a swaging die set made to uniform the bullets, your best bet is to accept that accuracy is going to be mediocre from your rifle. Even surplus M80 ball from a highly accurate rifle will seldom group better than 3 inches at 100. You can check out the box o truth article on that, running ball ammo through an AI rifle. You could try meplat uniforming, but honestly I think it is not worth your time.

Jimro

[Boomer58cal]

If memory serves, they shot most accurately for me close to factory velocities. 2700-2800 fps with your chrono 75-80 feet for the muzzle. Your combo my be different though.

Boomer

[Slamfire]

Some of the worst darn groups were with 148 grain IMI FMJ BT new bullets. These were supposed to be military bullets, just unloaded. All over the place.

I have shot some US GI ammunition with FMJ's, some groups were OK, the group with 1968 WRA ball was huge!!:



These are targets with the 148 IMI FMJBT's, awful!






I hit a sweet spot with the 150 gr FMJBT Hornady. No other rifle shoots them as well as this, but they are still better than GI.


My opinion of military FMJ's:

[ChaseReynolds]

I have the M118LR, is that the same bullet you are referring to. I know the ammo we put in our M240B and our M24 are not the same loads but not sure if it is the same bullet.

[Old Sourdough 54]

This may be redundant:
1. Are you pulling the bullets?
2. If you are pulling the bullets do you run them into the seating die to bump the bullets back to break the seal before pulling?
3. Should I keep quiet and slink off into a hole and cover myself?

[Bart B.]

The M118LR bullets are Sierra's 175 HPMK's that mic about .3082" in diameter; at least the ones I measured were that. M80 bullets are typically 147 to 148 grain FMJBT bullets and typically .3080" down to .3070" depending on who made them.

I've shot M80 ammo made in 1965, lot LC12638, loaded with 41 grains of IMR4475 powder (midway between IMR3031 and IMR4895 for burning speed) that shot under 4 inches at 300 yards in the USN 7.62 NATO converted match grade "A" Garands with barrels about .3077" groove diameters. Those bullets mic'd .3081" diameter. Match grade "B" Garands with larger groove diameters didn't shoot 'em as accurate. In service grade 7.62 Garands, they shot about 7 to 8 inches at 300 yards.

A 1964 lot of M80 (LC12487) had the same powder and charge weight and shot almost as accurate as LC12638.

Note the British commonwealth and South Africa does not allow handloaded ammo in matches. They feel that the "playing field" to determine whom the best marksman is has to be leveled by everyone using the same ammo; it's unfair if someone has more accurate ammo than everyone else. Some other country's rifle associations also hae the same rule. And every year the International Palma Matches are fired, their managing committee's rules state that everyone must use the same lot of ammo.

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by ChaseReynolds

I have the M118LR, is that the same bullet you are referring to.

Not at all. As the title of his post says, these are 147 grain M80 bullets. M118LR uses the perfectly lovely 175 grain Sierra MatchKing, developed in cooperation with the military for the sniper ammunition.


Fire_Moose,

Bullets for ball ammo often are a mixture of bullets off different tooling sets and machines. Below are five randomly selected bullets from some M2 Ball I pulled, just to serve as an example of one way to distinguish ball ammo by the making tools and machinery. You can see the differences in the bases. I think if you sort yours by base appearance, and then by weight, you'll probably be able to get groups of them that do better within the group.

Next, without a tight bore, as Bart mentioned, and especially if the bullets are slightly undersized, you may find that bullet concentricity in the finished ammo is more important than usual. If you don't do so already, you may have to consider taking some extra measures to keep the necks straight on the cases and to seat the bullets straight into the necks.

[Bart B.]

Breaking the bullet's seal is a good way to lessen the bullet's deformation by puller collets. Good idea, Old Sourdough.

It's also a good way to make arsenal ammo more accurate; the release force needed to get the bullet out is both less and has a smaller percentage of spread. Muzzle velocity's more consistant.

[Fire_Moose]

Thanks guys. Maybe I will sort them maybe they will be stored shtf rounds that can hit MOT.

And a few hundred will no doubt, be plinking rounds.