Berry HardCast Lead .45ACP / .454"???

Gregory Gauvin · January 7, 2015, 04:44 AM

Typically, to my understanding, lead bullets are generally size .001" bigger, perhaps .002".

I measured my 45acp Lead Hard Casts from Berry. They measure at .454". I thought these to be a "tad" oversized. But this is fine, as I shot plenty of these and they are an excellent bullet and accurate.

I'm developing a new load for .45ACP, and starting over, resetting my dies, I wanted to verify my crimp. Hence is why I took the measurement of the bullet, as well as measurement of the case wall thickness of my brass.

For cast lead, I read you should be running .452" or so crimp. I have always ran no crimp, or I have my dies set to only remove the bell and slightly "kiss" it reducing it .001". Brass measures .011", so, as I loaded my first round, .011" x 2 = 022" + .454" = .476". I measured my first round, it read .475". That's .001" crimping it. But .475" seems a BIT large. I didn't think I should be over .473", but if I add a little more crimp, I naturally would be marking the bullet.

What should I do? Rounds chamber fine at .475". Should I add a little more crimp or am I good here?

Will-j · January 7, 2015, 07:17 AM

GREG: Load a dummy round with your chosen bullet to listed OAL, apply a slight taper crimp, clean the round of all oil/sizing lube, lock the slide back, remove the mag., make sure your chamber is CLEAN, chamber a round, check to see if it fully chambers, and then slowly raise the muzzle to see if the round exits the chamber on its own.

If it does, you're good to go. If not, apply more crimp until it does, and then load away. This procedure has worked for me for MANY years with my
own guns/loads as well as with my friends'.

Good Luck and Good Shootin'.

WILL.

polyphemus · January 7, 2015, 08:52 AM

SAAMI specs for .45 caliber lead bullets are:.453" -.003".
Berry's specifies .452" for hard cast lead.
Which means that your bullets if correctly measured are not only out of tolerance for manufacturing standards but clearly not what you bought,given
what's advertised.It may be that you can get it to plunk in your gun but your
ammo is out of specs.

noylj · January 7, 2015, 05:55 PM

0.454" sounds just about right for a cast lead bullet in .45 Auto. I shoot my cast bullets as-cast and they tend to run 0.454".
Load 'em and enjoy 'em.

polyphemus · January 7, 2015, 06:33 PM

Quote:

0.454" sounds just about right for a cast lead bullet in .45 Auto. I shoot my cast bullets as-cast and they tend to run 0.454".

Your molds are out of specs and that makes your bullets sound about right.
Telling the OP that out of tolerance bullets are about right is not helpful,SAAMI
specs are manufacturing standards and should be adhered to for a number of reasons,maybe you don't like them but that's your option,at the very least you
could be telling OP why being oversize by standards is about right for you or him for that matter.

noylj · January 8, 2015, 12:44 AM

Lead bullets do not have to meet SAAMI. They just have to work. Hate to tell you, but 0.454" lead bullets is just fine for .45 Auto. And my molds are all within specification and I found that NOT sizing my bullets produce better accuracy, so I haven't sized a bullet for about 40 years.
Likewise, 0.358" lead bullets work quite well in 9x19. Been loading them for over 40 years. When I started reloading in the '70s, almost everyone used 0.357" jacketed bullets, as that was about all that was available. Still use them as they are often more accurate than 0.355" jacketed bullets.
SAAMI specified a 0.453" lead bullet for manufacturers. You are not a manufacturer and can use what works, and 0.454" works very well for very hard cast bullets. SAAMI is also all voluntary for the manufacturers and explains why the very accurate Remington 148 gn L-HBWC is 0.360-0.361".

Gregory Gauvin · January 8, 2015, 01:07 AM

I rechecked the measurements of my bullets and verified my calipers were zeroed.

I''m measuring .454", commonly .455", with the largest being .455".

Hmm... I wonder if this is why I was seeing pressure signs early on in my load development.

polyphemus · January 8, 2015, 09:40 AM

Quote:

I rechecked the measurements of my bullets and verified my calipers were zeroed

It is still possible that they may not be calibrated,use a pair of mics instead or
double check it somehow.I have a bunch of plated ones and they're right on the
money.

Quote:

You are not a manufacturer and can use what works,

There are very important reasons why we have a uniform system of weights and measures and why we have manufacturing standards.And while it it is true that
you can actually use anything you want and it that it may even work for you.
That doesn't make it right or even about right,right specs for .45AUTO are
.453" -.003" because they work in uniform standard manufactured firearms,
standards of manufacture are what keeps products working for everyone not
just one kitchen table tinkerer.

Don P · January 8, 2015, 11:05 AM

Folks, you do realize that you are worried about .001"-.002" which in an easier way to visualize is .001 is 1/3rd. the thickness on a human hair and that .001 or .002 is split in 2 because if you draw a center line through the bullet and you measure .001 larger it is split .0005 for each side of the bullet and the same for a .002 measurement being .001 per each side. If you can notice the accuracy or pressure difference you are a whole lot better than I am

Jim Watson · January 8, 2015, 11:48 AM

Sounds kind of large to me, but better than too small as long as the loaded round will chamber freely. Do they "plunk test?" The main thing to avoid is what Our Guru Clark terms "bullet pinch." If the case can let the bullet go, it will be ok. As P.O. Ackley said, by the time it travels its own length, it will FIT the barrel.

I understand the SAAMI minus tolerance on bullets but I can tell you for sure that a box of allegedly spec .450" bullets will have you tearing your hair out.

polyphemus · January 8, 2015, 12:09 PM

Just to keep things on track,OP is measuring bullet diameters .003" larger than
what's advertised and .002" larger than allowed SAAMI standards.
If this is acceptable to him or anyone else that's their option.
Does this have an effect on internal pressure? That would have to be determined and is not the point,.45 AUTO has specific dimensions and tolerances
and these bullets are not in compliance according to the post.
This is not about being picky it is about paying attention to what you're doing
and then doing it right it is clear that OP had reservations about his bullets now the issue seems to be whether he should care or not.

Quote:

I understand the SAAMI minus tolerance on bullets but I can tell you for sure that a box of allegedly spec .450" bullets will have you tearing your hair out

I would certainly return them if what I bought was .452"

DavidAGO · January 8, 2015, 06:08 PM

Polyphemus has it right, make sure you are measuring with a micrometer that is correct. Calipers are not accurate enough, even high end calipers.

David

**Aguila Blanca** · January 8, 2015, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gergory Gauvin

For cast lead, I read you should be running .452" or so crimp. I have always ran no crimp, or I have my dies set to only remove the bell and slightly "kiss" it reducing it .001". Brass measures .011", so, as I loaded my first round, .011" x 2 = 022" + .454" = .476". I measured my first round, it read .475". That's .001" crimping it. But .475" seems a BIT large. I didn't think I should be over .473", but if I add a little more crimp, I naturally would be marking the bullet.

The industry spec for a .45 ACP cartridge is .4730 - .006 at the case mouth, and .4520 for the bullet itself. The industry spec for the .45 ACP chamber is .4740 + .004.

As suggested, pull your barrel, hold it vertically with the chamber up, and drop a cartridge in. If it passes the "plunk" test, you're okay. However, those rounds might not function in a pistol with a minimum dimension chamber.

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...0Automatic.pdf

Gregory Gauvin · January 17, 2015, 10:13 AM

Thank you, all. I just opened a new box of same bullet type, must be of a different batch lot, they all seem to measure .453. I highly doubt they changed their mold - I have not, nor have much knowledge of casting myself, and, I'm curious as to differences in alloy used, the cooling process, is it possible that a certain mix can actually expand after it is removed from mold and subjected to cooling?

A thousandth or two larger may not be acceptable to some, but, they shoot very well and I feel being slightly oversize improves their performance as they swage themselves down the barrel giving a tight, uniform seal, no leading and the like.

Gregory Gauvin · January 17, 2015, 10:16 AM

Aguila, my chamber does appear to be tight. I loaded a round and performed a plunk test, again...

I started with no crimp, and slowly adjusted my die until I got the plunk. My barrel will not plunk a round any larger than .475"

TimSr · January 17, 2015, 11:12 AM

I've noticed a lot of times bullets for .45LC are sized .001-.002 larger than those intended for .45ACP.

polyphemus · January 17, 2015, 12:11 PM

That'd be because that cartridge requires a larger bullet.
.456" -.006" SAAMI,.454" standard.

January 7, 2015, 04:44 AM	#1
Gregory Gauvin Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2009 Posts: 368	Berry HardCast Lead .45ACP / .454"??? Typically, to my understanding, lead bullets are generally size .001" bigger, perhaps .002". I measured my 45acp Lead Hard Casts from Berry. They measure at .454". I thought these to be a "tad" oversized. But this is fine, as I shot plenty of these and they are an excellent bullet and accurate. I'm developing a new load for .45ACP, and starting over, resetting my dies, I wanted to verify my crimp. Hence is why I took the measurement of the bullet, as well as measurement of the case wall thickness of my brass. For cast lead, I read you should be running .452" or so crimp. I have always ran no crimp, or I have my dies set to only remove the bell and slightly "kiss" it reducing it .001". Brass measures .011", so, as I loaded my first round, .011" x 2 = 022" + .454" = .476". I measured my first round, it read .475". That's .001" crimping it. But .475" seems a BIT large. I didn't think I should be over .473", but if I add a little more crimp, I naturally would be marking the bullet. What should I do? Rounds chamber fine at .475". Should I add a little more crimp or am I good here?

January 7, 2015, 07:17 AM	#2
Will-j Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2014 Location: SW Ga. Near Ft. Benning Posts: 251	BERRY's 45ACP bullets. GREG: Load a dummy round with your chosen bullet to listed OAL, apply a slight taper crimp, clean the round of all oil/sizing lube, lock the slide back, remove the mag., make sure your chamber is CLEAN, chamber a round, check to see if it fully chambers, and then slowly raise the muzzle to see if the round exits the chamber on its own. If it does, you're good to go. If not, apply more crimp until it does, and then load away. This procedure has worked for me for MANY years with my own guns/loads as well as with my friends'. Good Luck and Good Shootin'. WILL.

January 8, 2015, 11:05 AM	#9
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	Folks, you do realize that you are worried about .001"-.002" which in an easier way to visualize is .001 is 1/3rd. the thickness on a human hair and that .001 or .002 is split in 2 because if you draw a center line through the bullet and you measure .001 larger it is split .0005 for each side of the bullet and the same for a .002 measurement being .001 per each side. If you can notice the accuracy or pressure difference you are a whole lot better than I am __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

January 7, 2015, 08:52 AM	#3
polyphemus Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2012 Posts: 1,055	SAAMI specs for .45 caliber lead bullets are:.453" -.003". Berry's specifies .452" for hard cast lead. Which means that your bullets if correctly measured are not only out of tolerance for manufacturing standards but clearly not what you bought,given what's advertised.It may be that you can get it to plunk in your gun but your ammo is out of specs.

January 7, 2015, 05:55 PM	#4
noylj Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2007 Location: Between CA and NM Posts: 858	0.454" sounds just about right for a cast lead bullet in .45 Auto. I shoot my cast bullets as-cast and they tend to run 0.454". Load 'em and enjoy 'em.

January 8, 2015, 12:44 AM	#6
noylj Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2007 Location: Between CA and NM Posts: 858	Lead bullets do not have to meet SAAMI. They just have to work. Hate to tell you, but 0.454" lead bullets is just fine for .45 Auto. And my molds are all within specification and I found that NOT sizing my bullets produce better accuracy, so I haven't sized a bullet for about 40 years. Likewise, 0.358" lead bullets work quite well in 9x19. Been loading them for over 40 years. When I started reloading in the '70s, almost everyone used 0.357" jacketed bullets, as that was about all that was available. Still use them as they are often more accurate than 0.355" jacketed bullets. SAAMI specified a 0.453" lead bullet for manufacturers. You are not a manufacturer and can use what works, and 0.454" works very well for very hard cast bullets. SAAMI is also all voluntary for the manufacturers and explains why the very accurate Remington 148 gn L-HBWC is 0.360-0.361".

January 8, 2015, 01:07 AM	#7
Gregory Gauvin Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2009 Posts: 368	I rechecked the measurements of my bullets and verified my calipers were zeroed. I''m measuring .454", commonly .455", with the largest being .455". Hmm... I wonder if this is why I was seeing pressure signs early on in my load development.

January 8, 2015, 11:48 AM	#10
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Sounds kind of large to me, but better than too small as long as the loaded round will chamber freely. Do they "plunk test?" The main thing to avoid is what Our Guru Clark terms "bullet pinch." If the case can let the bullet go, it will be ok. As P.O. Ackley said, by the time it travels its own length, it will FIT the barrel. I understand the SAAMI minus tolerance on bullets but I can tell you for sure that a box of allegedly spec .450" bullets will have you tearing your hair out.

January 8, 2015, 06:08 PM	#12
DavidAGO Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2008 Location: Magnolia, AR Posts: 340	Polyphemus has it right, make sure you are measuring with a micrometer that is correct. Calipers are not accurate enough, even high end calipers. David

January 17, 2015, 10:13 AM	#14
Gregory Gauvin Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2009 Posts: 368	Thank you, all. I just opened a new box of same bullet type, must be of a different batch lot, they all seem to measure .453. I highly doubt they changed their mold - I have not, nor have much knowledge of casting myself, and, I'm curious as to differences in alloy used, the cooling process, is it possible that a certain mix can actually expand after it is removed from mold and subjected to cooling? A thousandth or two larger may not be acceptable to some, but, they shoot very well and I feel being slightly oversize improves their performance as they swage themselves down the barrel giving a tight, uniform seal, no leading and the like.

January 17, 2015, 10:16 AM	#15
Gregory Gauvin Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2009 Posts: 368	Aguila, my chamber does appear to be tight. I loaded a round and performed a plunk test, again... I started with no crimp, and slowly adjusted my die until I got the plunk. My barrel will not plunk a round any larger than .475"

January 17, 2015, 11:12 AM	#16
TimSr Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Rittman, Ohio Posts: 2,074	I've noticed a lot of times bullets for .45LC are sized .001-.002 larger than those intended for .45ACP.

January 17, 2015, 12:11 PM	#17
polyphemus Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2012 Posts: 1,055	That'd be because that cartridge requires a larger bullet. .456" -.006" SAAMI,.454" standard.