Need a Decoder ring ... old Remington shells

Dave P · November 16, 2021, 04:22 PM

I have a few old remington 12 ga shells. Can I get an assist at decoding the label?

Primary question is: are these 4 aught buckshot? What does the last "4" mean? Suitable for home defense?

"Remington Express Plastic, SP12-- 3 3/4 -- 1 1/4- - 4"

They shoot fine out of my Mossberg/Miculek competition gun.

Thanks! Dave

badge851 · November 16, 2021, 04:31 PM

NO that is a load of #4 birdshot, NOT buckshot!

dahermit · November 16, 2021, 04:39 PM

"Remington Express Plastic, SP12-- 3 3/4 -- 1 1/4- - 4"

3-3/4 dram equivalent of powder, 1-1/4 ounces of shot, shot size number 4.

As badge851 posted, it is birdshot not buckshot.

It is not as old as the paper shot shells we used as teenagers in the early sixties.

Seedy Character · November 16, 2021, 05:32 PM

Wut dey sed

Lead 4s

Pheasant or turkey loads

We called called "short magnums"

stinkeypete · November 16, 2021, 05:47 PM

I think 1 1/4 oz no. 4 birdshot is suitable for home defense.

Dave P · November 16, 2021, 06:24 PM

OK, thank you all!

**44 AMP** · November 17, 2021, 12:22 AM

Plastic hull shotshells first appeared in the 50s. Remington SP-12 is a line of Rem shotshells from no earlier than the 80s, or possibly 90s, I forget, but I have a box.

The SP line came after the "Shur-Shot" and "Express" shells and if I remember correctly one of the things offered in SP12 shells was duplex (dual size) shot loads. The box I have is marked BB X4 and I think its BBs and #4 shot mix.

3 3/4 dram equivalent is the old "Express" load and the smokeless match to the speed and pressure of 3 3/4 drams of black powder. That was the top level power load for 12ga until the creation of the "baby magnum" 2 3/4" shells.

The Shur-Shot line was lower power, being 3 or 3 1/4 dr eq. loads.

As to birdshot for home defense, at across the room ranges, the pattern isn't going to be bigger than your hand, forget the old BS that "you can't miss" or "you don't need to aim". You CAN miss and you DO need to aim.

Many will say you need buckshot or bigger, and there's no question it does work. But considering the point of defensive shooting is to STOP the attack, not to kill the attacker, birdshot can do that, if you hit them in the right place. If they die as a result of being stopped, that's a tragic result of their bad judgement.

If you can get buck, by all means, use it in gravest extreme. But if all you have in that situation is birdshot, don't think you're not armed with a deadly weapon, you are.

bamaranger · November 17, 2021, 09:03 PM

The load descriptions are right on, ie, what you have is a standard, full power, 12 gauge load, often called a hi-brass or field load. Velocity of the payload should be in the neighborhood of 1300 fps +/-.

The "baby magnums" or short magnums mentioned by another post are not the same.........though the author may have called the 1-1/4 oz load a "baby magnum", the short magnums threw 1-1/2 shot or more.

**44 AMP** · November 18, 2021, 02:31 AM

Quote:

what you have is a standard, full power, 12 gauge load, often called a hi-brass or field load.

they are called hi brass (high brass) because the brass reaches higher on the case than the "low brass" loads. interestingly and confusingly for some people these same shells are also known as low base and high base shells.

"Base" in this terminology refers to the interior base wad of the case, NOT the outside brass. High Brass shells are LOW BASE shells, the interior base wad is low so there is more room for gunpowder for the heavy load. And low brass shells are high base inside.

I disagree with high brass shells being called "field loads" though that may be a regional thing. Where I grew up, field loads were the lighter, low brass 3 or 3 1/4dr eq. and high brass 3 3/4 dr eq. shells were "express" or heavy loads.

The SP-12 shells I have are high brass but the brass is darkened. The plastic case is also a very dark, dull greenish black making the entire round a very "low visibility" item. I guess game has better eyesight now than it did when I was a kid.

bamaranger · November 18, 2021, 01:18 PM

Yes, I think the field load/express load lingo may well be regional. The lighter dram, 1-1/8 loads were "game loads" . Might be a manufacturer thing too.

I've always painted the ends of my turkey loads black or green........fearing that a sharp eyed gobbler might be able to see down the barrel and spook at the unnatural red dot of a shotshell in the chamber........

Jim Watson · November 18, 2021, 04:45 PM

My Uncle did a bit of hunting after retirement, first time since he got off the farm and joined the Army.

He complained that cheap promotional loads were just "picking" the doves and express loads kicked too much. I found him some of the rather uncommon pigeon loads, 3 1/4 DE, 1 1/4 oz. Had to settle for 7 1/2 shot, hardly anybody makes the No 7 that built the reputation of the pigeon load.

November 16, 2021, 04:22 PM	#1
Dave P Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 1999 Location: North Florida Posts: 1,346	Need a Decoder ring ... old Remington shells I have a few old remington 12 ga shells. Can I get an assist at decoding the label? Primary question is: are these 4 aught buckshot? What does the last "4" mean? Suitable for home defense? "Remington Express Plastic, SP12-- 3 3/4 -- 1 1/4- - 4" They shoot fine out of my Mossberg/Miculek competition gun. Thanks! Dave __________________ I think this country is screwed.

November 16, 2021, 04:31 PM	#2
badge851 Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2005 Location: Olympia, WA Posts: 326	NO that is a load of #4 birdshot, NOT buckshot! __________________ Only two defining forces have ever died for you: 1. Jesus Christ. 2. The American Soldier, Sailor, Airman, & Marine. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

November 16, 2021, 05:47 PM	#5
stinkeypete Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 1,293	I think 1 1/4 oz no. 4 birdshot is suitable for home defense. __________________ My book "The Pheasant Hunter's Action Adventure Cookbook" is now on Amazon. Tall tales, hunting tips, butchering from bird to the freezer, and recipes.

November 16, 2021, 06:24 PM	#6
Dave P Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 1999 Location: North Florida Posts: 1,346	OK, thank you all! __________________ I think this country is screwed.

November 17, 2021, 12:22 AM	#7
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,832	Plastic hull shotshells first appeared in the 50s. Remington SP-12 is a line of Rem shotshells from no earlier than the 80s, or possibly 90s, I forget, but I have a box. The SP line came after the "Shur-Shot" and "Express" shells and if I remember correctly one of the things offered in SP12 shells was duplex (dual size) shot loads. The box I have is marked BB X4 and I think its BBs and #4 shot mix. 3 3/4 dram equivalent is the old "Express" load and the smokeless match to the speed and pressure of 3 3/4 drams of black powder. That was the top level power load for 12ga until the creation of the "baby magnum" 2 3/4" shells. The Shur-Shot line was lower power, being 3 or 3 1/4 dr eq. loads. As to birdshot for home defense, at across the room ranges, the pattern isn't going to be bigger than your hand, forget the old BS that "you can't miss" or "you don't need to aim". You CAN miss and you DO need to aim. Many will say you need buckshot or bigger, and there's no question it does work. But considering the point of defensive shooting is to STOP the attack, not to kill the attacker, birdshot can do that, if you hit them in the right place. If they die as a result of being stopped, that's a tragic result of their bad judgement. If you can get buck, by all means, use it in gravest extreme. But if all you have in that situation is birdshot, don't think you're not armed with a deadly weapon, you are. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

November 16, 2021, 04:39 PM	#3
dahermit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: South Central Michigan...near Posts: 6,501	"Remington Express Plastic, SP12-- 3 3/4 -- 1 1/4- - 4" 3-3/4 dram equivalent of powder, 1-1/4 ounces of shot, shot size number 4. As badge851 posted, it is birdshot not buckshot. It is not as old as the paper shot shells we used as teenagers in the early sixties.

November 16, 2021, 05:32 PM	#4
Seedy Character Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2021 Location: SW Okla Posts: 201	Wut dey sed Lead 4s Pheasant or turkey loads We called called "short magnums"

November 17, 2021, 09:03 PM	#8
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,308	short magnums The load descriptions are right on, ie, what you have is a standard, full power, 12 gauge load, often called a hi-brass or field load. Velocity of the payload should be in the neighborhood of 1300 fps +/-. The "baby magnums" or short magnums mentioned by another post are not the same.........though the author may have called the 1-1/4 oz load a "baby magnum", the short magnums threw 1-1/2 shot or more.

November 18, 2021, 01:18 PM	#10
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,308	regional and vision Yes, I think the field load/express load lingo may well be regional. The lighter dram, 1-1/8 loads were "game loads" . Might be a manufacturer thing too. I've always painted the ends of my turkey loads black or green........fearing that a sharp eyed gobbler might be able to see down the barrel and spook at the unnatural red dot of a shotshell in the chamber........

November 18, 2021, 04:45 PM	#11
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	My Uncle did a bit of hunting after retirement, first time since he got off the farm and joined the Army. He complained that cheap promotional loads were just "picking" the doves and express loads kicked too much. I found him some of the rather uncommon pigeon loads, 3 1/4 DE, 1 1/4 oz. Had to settle for 7 1/2 shot, hardly anybody makes the No 7 that built the reputation of the pigeon load.