Looking at a new semi auto duck gun.

5RWill · September 14, 2009, 10:34 AM

Tired of my 870 with 3inch mags kicking the hell out of me. I've been looking at benelli, franchi, and stoeger. I realize that all of them use the inertia system. What im looking for is a semi auto that isn't going to jam in 15 degree weather. I had my eyes, set on the m2 field. The only difference i could tell between it and a black eagle was the black eagles ability to hold 3 and 1/2s. I've seen a franchi I-12 in action and i was amazed until it jammed. So i was unsure. I have a friend that says his super black eagle has never failed him. Have another friend that says his stoeger is his favorite but it has frozen up once on him. Another thing i would like to know, is what is the difference between the 3 besides brand name and price? Doesn't make sense to me if they all use the same action. I know finish can be cheaper but we're talking synthetic shotguns here.

GeauxTide · September 14, 2009, 11:20 AM

Love my 11-87 cause it comes in LH.

RetiredLawman · September 14, 2009, 11:34 AM

I have a couple of Stoeger 2000s that I have never had any trouble with. I bought them for my sons who swear by them. However, they do have considerable kick. Thus I prefer my Remington 11-87 for heavy duty shooting. It is heavy enough to absorb recoil and it is a gas operated system. Much softer on the shoulder.

I suppose the higher end inertia actions are OK but they are considerably overpriced, IMHO. I suggest that you look around fro a good 11-87 in 3". Thy are a thousand dollars cheaper than the Benellis and I have never had a failure in over twenty years. A plus is that should you ever need parts, every gunsmith around has parts for a Remington. The o-ring has never failed but I carry an extra in my wallet just in case. They run about $.35 cents at your local hardware store.

The higher dollar inertia guns are probably OK. I can't afford them. Try getting parts for them. I've read posts where folks state that Benelli's customer service lacks a lot. I've never had to use it so I can't say first hand. I will say that the Stoeger 2000s have been very reliable. They have the same action as the I-12, same gun with a pretty exterior.

5RWill · September 14, 2009, 12:03 PM

I had friends tell me that if your benelli messed up they would send you a new one guaranteed warranty. I always thought that Gas operated guns were more prone to malfunction in harsh conditions? The prices of the benelli m2 and the Franchi i-12 aren't bad in my opinion 800-1000. We've got 2 1100 skeet B editions that were about the same price. Now the super black eagle II and cordoba are ridiculous. I was kinda set on the inertia action, but ill check the 11-87. The inertia action to me looks like the ak-47 of shotguns.

LanceOregon · September 14, 2009, 12:56 PM

If you want a low recoiling shotgun, then a gas operated semiauto is going to be softer shooting than an inertia action shotgun.

You might want to check out the brand new Browning Maxus, which just came out on the market a few weeks ago. Many dealers now have this brand new shotgun in stock.

It has Browning's new "Power Drive" Gas Operated Action Design, their new improved "Lightning Trigger", Dura-Touch Armor Coating, InFlex Recoil Pad, Speed Load Plus, and the new Speed Lock Forearm.

See:

http://www.browning.com/products/cat...24B&catalog_=B

The shotgun was featured at ShotShow 2009, but is just becoming available now:

Browning developed this new shotgun to be able to compete against Beretta's 391 Extrema 2, which has proven to be very popular with waterfowl hunters.

It is a truly awesome gun, and is what I use:

--

mwar410 · September 14, 2009, 02:06 PM

I shoot a 391 urika II, in probably the harshest waterfowling weather. We can sea duck until the end of Jan. out on the open water the salt is just in the air, in northern Maine. I decided to test this gun, since others often mention that gas guns are dirtier. The gun is 4 years old and has about 2000 rds/yr ( also been shooting clays with it . Last week was the first time I tore it down to clean it ( no malfunctions, just thought it was about time). The only cleaning that was done was the occasional bore mop, quick wiping, and a shot of breakfree in the breach. It is tha max4 camo with syn stocks. not bad for a dirty gun.

5RWill · September 14, 2009, 02:50 PM

Kick isn't a huge factor, i can stand shooting 3"s in my pump it just wears on me. I'm not looking for a light recoiling gun so to speak. Most automatics are going to shoot lighter than a 870 pump. I want a automatic that withstand conditions that a pump can. Mainly looking for a automatic that will shoot shot after shot in 10-15 degree weather. Like duck commander says "boom, boom, boom"

Nice Mwar thats what im looking for. The reason i have my eyes set on benelli. Is i read an article i think it was by guns and ammo and they shot 88,000 rounds through a benelli cordoba and not one malfunction or sign of wearing.

Maromero · September 14, 2009, 03:02 PM

Rem 11-87

No thrills, no frills, soft shooting relatively inexpensive shotgun. The good part is you can use it as a weight, paddle with it if you loose your paddle, and basically abuse it. It will work if properly maintained.

greensteelforge · September 14, 2009, 03:13 PM

If you can find a lightly used Winchester Super-X 2 or 3, you won't be disappointed, they'll cycle anything (the 3 1/2" guns have a little trouble with the REALLY light trap loads, but nothing else), and they use Browning chokes (I have a strong suspicion that the gun pictured up there is nothing more than a Super-X with a Browning label, and a jacked up price tag). After the gas guns like this have been around for a while, I doubt anyone will make an inertia driven auto twelve any more.

mwar410 · September 14, 2009, 03:29 PM

I will add that this was a replacement for a 870 express ( that would start rusting as it came out of the truck ) and an 11-87 that looked like a canoe paddle and the ejector broke several times. I think they took a 3" and just made it to chamber a 3.5", wouldn't hold up to the father- outlaws 3.5" duck rds. If you don't need the 3.5" stay away from the extrema II, it feels way to. imo
the only rust areas on the urika were the swivels, and the rivet that holds the gas vent on the forearm.

johnbt · September 14, 2009, 03:33 PM

The last time I looked the Browning Golds, etc. had a shell cut-off and the Winchester didn't.

A few years ago I bought a lightly used 2003 Winchester SX-2 Waterfowl 3.5" with DuraTouch coating and it has been perfect through saltwater boat rides, freezing rain, snow and all of that duck hunting stuff like dragging it through the 9-foot-tall reeds for a quarter mile to get to a blind.

It cycles low brass 2.75" bird loads and is one of my favorite guns. And it's a soft shooter compared to my '93 870 Express with a Decelerator pad that I put on it (and it's 100% better than the original hard pad.)

I love the DuraTouch, too. A shell cut-off would have been nice, but it wasn't a deal breaker.

John

rickyjames · September 14, 2009, 03:34 PM

i have a police style tristar viper thats works well. i believe they make a ducks unlimited version. it might be worth some research for you. there is a field test on the net that shows an iced up gun working well.

jmr40 · September 14, 2009, 08:07 PM

Any of the better gas guns will work fine for you but it seems like you want the Benelli. The gas guns will have less recoil, but the Benellis are not all as bad as a lot of people make them out to be. Certainly no worse than a pump or double and a good recoil pad will help. If I shot a lot of clays I would lean toward a Beretta, but personally prefer the Benelli M-2 for a hunting gun.

Of course for around $30 a limbsaver pad on the 870 would help tremendously to tame recoil.

5RWill · September 14, 2009, 08:58 PM

Ya i have a limbsaver i can't remember what it's for but ill look at it. Also doesn't beretta own Benelli, franchi, and stoeger?

Maromero · September 14, 2009, 09:18 PM

Quote:

I will add that this was a replacement for a 870 express ( that would start rusting as it came out of the truck ) and an 11-87 that looked like a canoe paddle and the ejector broke several times

Fortunately that's not my expirience.

RNB65 · September 14, 2009, 09:22 PM

Beretta 391

RJM · September 15, 2009, 07:14 AM

After having owned a Benelli Super Black Eagle I cannot recommend them, some people swear by them, but I learned to really dislike mine. I can recommend the Winchester SX3 and the Browning Silvers, I own one of each and can that my experience has led me to believe they are the better gun. My winchester went through a heck of a season last year and never once had an issue. I had an issue with my teeth chattering so loudly the ducks could hear, but the gun never had one problem. The dura coat stuff really keeps the gun in your hands and the gun just fit me right, didn't pound me to death and just worked. The more I hunt ducks and geese, I am becoming a Browning guy.

I would like to really look at a Browning Maxus too.

5RWill · September 15, 2009, 09:16 AM

What were your problems with the black eagle? Im mainly considering the m2, cause it's cheaper but fill me in. I mean was it like a personal preference or was actual malfunctions and other irritations?

LanceOregon · September 15, 2009, 01:05 PM

Quote:

If you can find a lightly used Winchester Super-X 2 or 3, you won't be disappointed, they'll cycle anything (the 3 1/2" guns have a little trouble with the REALLY light trap loads, but nothing else), and they use Browning chokes (I have a strong suspicion that the gun pictured up there is nothing more than a Super-X with a Browning label, and a jacked up price tag). After the gas guns like this have been around for a while, I doubt anyone will make an inertia driven auto twelve any more.

I will second your opinion that the Winchester Super X2 and X3 shotguns are also very good guns. I used to shoot a Super X2 myself. But I ended up giving that shotgun to my son. And I then bought a Beretta 391 Extrema 2 to replace it.

Here is my son with his Super X2:

As far as a price gap between Browning and Winchester, it is actually very marginal on new guns. Both of them, and also the Beretta 391 Extrema 2, are all basically in the same price range.

Regarding the new Browning Maxus shotgun, though, you are clearly misinformed. This was one of the major new shotguns announced at the 2009 Shot Show earlier this year. And it only finally started shipping last month.

I mainly mentioned it because it is so very new, that few folks yet know about it now being on the market. Dealers have only had it now for a few weeks. Feature-wise, the Browning Maxus is enhanced to compete well with the Berettas.

My only concern with the Maxus is how very light it is. 6 lbs 15 oz seems awfully light for a 3.5 inch 12 Gauge Super Magnum. In contrast, the 3.5 inch 12 Gauge Magnum Beretta 391 Extrema 2 is 7 3/4 lbs, and the 3 inch Magnum Beretta 391 Urika II is 7.2 lbs.

The Maxus sure has some great features, though. Here is a web page with more info about it:

http://www.browning.com/products/int...axus/#onscreen

--

RJM · September 15, 2009, 04:48 PM

Quote:

What were your problems with the black eagle? Im mainly considering the m2, cause it's cheaper but fill me in. I mean was it like a personal preference or was actual malfunctions and other irritations?

My SBE was the first generation one and it was very well put together, fit and finish wise. Packaged nice and felt nice in the hands. Problem was that it never could reliably cycle lighter loads, I tried to shoot trap informally with my friends with it and the amount of times that it choked on those rounds was ridiculous. I also had a few problems in the first 750 rounds or so cycling some steel duck loads. I have yet to have my winchester choke like that and I have taken it out hunting and beat the heck out of it more than I ever did my Benelli.

The gun fit me pretty well and it came with adjustable shims and something like 5 different chokes, it was a complete package which is good. Its a really light gun, which is great for carrying into the field but sucks on the shoulder. It recoiled quite a bit more than my Winchester does now, at least if feels that way to me. Shooting 3.5" magnums out of it was pretty painful, like I didn't want to do it twice, but out of the Winchester it really isn't that bad. Now with the recoil reducing stock that the current Benellis have, they may have closed the gap on recoil control, but when I bought mine there wasn't that option.

For the money that they are selling them for I can't say that, for me, they are worth it. I would rather put the money towards a good browning and buy a couple of cases or five of shells. IMHO, you get a better gun for less money. Of course, some disagree with me.

LanceOregon · September 15, 2009, 05:57 PM

My own experience has been that the Winchester Super X2 and Browning Gold shotguns absorb recoil the best, even slightly better than the Beretta 391 shotguns.

Browning claims that this new Power Drive gas system on the new Maxus does even better yet. It certainly is physically the biggest gas piston that I have ever seen on a shotgun. And the ports on it are huge.

However, I am happy with my current set of Berettas. I doubt I will ever buy another shotgun.

--

5RWill · December 10, 2009, 10:28 PM

Well my brother got a franchi I-12 for an early christmas gift. And i have to say the SOB kicks like my 870 with 3 inch mags. I wasn't impressed. Im gonna stick with my 870 until i get the chance to shoot someones benelli or try some other gas guns. Right now the rangefinder and chronograph is more important for my needs.

zippy13 · December 11, 2009, 01:02 AM

Have you considered one of the 10-ga semi-auto duck/goose guns?
Yeah, I know, in past threads most said a 10-ga is overkill except for duck and geese. Well, you did say you're looking for a duck gun. Those who shoot water fowl with a 10-ga as opposed to 12ga mags claim the heaver 10s have less kick and bring down more birds.
Here's links to Remington and Browning 10s
http://www.remington.com/products/fi...odel_SP-10.asp
http://www.browning.com/products/cat...10B&catalog_=B

JackSparrow · December 11, 2009, 01:14 AM

go for the SX3. Such a light weapon, and if you feel like firing all three shots in half a second you'd be able to (450+ rounds per minute) :P

5RWill · December 11, 2009, 03:16 AM

Now been looking for reliability reviews for the sx3, maxus, and the extrema 2. If i can just find one review showing the gun handling itself in 16 degree or freezing temperatures without a malfunction, im sold. I don't think i'll ever like the Inertia driven system. I mean don't get me wrong the recoil isn't that bad but when i shoot any automatic im used to lightly felt recoil with my 1100s. It was kind of a shocking factor to see the I-12 kick that much.

September 14, 2009, 10:34 AM	#1
5RWill Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2008 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,654	Looking at a new semi auto duck gun. Tired of my 870 with 3inch mags kicking the hell out of me. I've been looking at benelli, franchi, and stoeger. I realize that all of them use the inertia system. What im looking for is a semi auto that isn't going to jam in 15 degree weather. I had my eyes, set on the m2 field. The only difference i could tell between it and a black eagle was the black eagles ability to hold 3 and 1/2s. I've seen a franchi I-12 in action and i was amazed until it jammed. So i was unsure. I have a friend that says his super black eagle has never failed him. Have another friend that says his stoeger is his favorite but it has frozen up once on him. Another thing i would like to know, is what is the difference between the 3 besides brand name and price? Doesn't make sense to me if they all use the same action. I know finish can be cheaper but we're talking synthetic shotguns here.

September 14, 2009, 09:22 PM	#16
RNB65 Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2006 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 167	Beretta 391 __________________ THR refugee.

September 15, 2009, 07:14 AM	#17
RJM Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 607	After having owned a Benelli Super Black Eagle I cannot recommend them, some people swear by them, but I learned to really dislike mine. I can recommend the Winchester SX3 and the Browning Silvers, I own one of each and can that my experience has led me to believe they are the better gun. My winchester went through a heck of a season last year and never once had an issue. I had an issue with my teeth chattering so loudly the ducks could hear, but the gun never had one problem. The dura coat stuff really keeps the gun in your hands and the gun just fit me right, didn't pound me to death and just worked. The more I hunt ducks and geese, I am becoming a Browning guy. I would like to really look at a Browning Maxus too. __________________ .327 SP101 3", .327 Blackhawk, S&W 627 V-Comp, S&W 686+ 5", S&W 686+ 3", S&W 581 4", Ruger no.1 .243, TC Contender, Stoeger .410 SxS, some sort of SKS

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September 14, 2009, 11:20 AM	#2
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,423	Love my 11-87 cause it comes in LH.

September 14, 2009, 11:34 AM	#3
RetiredLawman Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2008 Posts: 133	I have a couple of Stoeger 2000s that I have never had any trouble with. I bought them for my sons who swear by them. However, they do have considerable kick. Thus I prefer my Remington 11-87 for heavy duty shooting. It is heavy enough to absorb recoil and it is a gas operated system. Much softer on the shoulder. I suppose the higher end inertia actions are OK but they are considerably overpriced, IMHO. I suggest that you look around fro a good 11-87 in 3". Thy are a thousand dollars cheaper than the Benellis and I have never had a failure in over twenty years. A plus is that should you ever need parts, every gunsmith around has parts for a Remington. The o-ring has never failed but I carry an extra in my wallet just in case. They run about $.35 cents at your local hardware store. The higher dollar inertia guns are probably OK. I can't afford them. Try getting parts for them. I've read posts where folks state that Benelli's customer service lacks a lot. I've never had to use it so I can't say first hand. I will say that the Stoeger 2000s have been very reliable. They have the same action as the I-12, same gun with a pretty exterior.

September 14, 2009, 12:03 PM	#4
5RWill Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2008 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,654	I had friends tell me that if your benelli messed up they would send you a new one guaranteed warranty. I always thought that Gas operated guns were more prone to malfunction in harsh conditions? The prices of the benelli m2 and the Franchi i-12 aren't bad in my opinion 800-1000. We've got 2 1100 skeet B editions that were about the same price. Now the super black eagle II and cordoba are ridiculous. I was kinda set on the inertia action, but ill check the 11-87. The inertia action to me looks like the ak-47 of shotguns.

September 14, 2009, 12:56 PM	#5
LanceOregon Junior member Join Date: May 10, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,774	If you want a low recoiling shotgun, then a gas operated semiauto is going to be softer shooting than an inertia action shotgun. You might want to check out the brand new Browning Maxus, which just came out on the market a few weeks ago. Many dealers now have this brand new shotgun in stock. It has Browning's new "Power Drive" Gas Operated Action Design, their new improved "Lightning Trigger", Dura-Touch Armor Coating, InFlex Recoil Pad, Speed Load Plus, and the new Speed Lock Forearm. See: http://www.browning.com/products/cat...24B&catalog_=B The shotgun was featured at ShotShow 2009, but is just becoming available now: Browning developed this new shotgun to be able to compete against Beretta's 391 Extrema 2, which has proven to be very popular with waterfowl hunters. It is a truly awesome gun, and is what I use: --

September 14, 2009, 02:06 PM	#6
mwar410 Senior Member Join Date: December 25, 2008 Location: maine Posts: 234	I shoot a 391 urika II, in probably the harshest waterfowling weather. We can sea duck until the end of Jan. out on the open water the salt is just in the air, in northern Maine. I decided to test this gun, since others often mention that gas guns are dirtier. The gun is 4 years old and has about 2000 rds/yr ( also been shooting clays with it . Last week was the first time I tore it down to clean it ( no malfunctions, just thought it was about time). The only cleaning that was done was the occasional bore mop, quick wiping, and a shot of breakfree in the breach. It is tha max4 camo with syn stocks. not bad for a dirty gun.

September 14, 2009, 02:50 PM	#7
5RWill Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2008 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,654	Kick isn't a huge factor, i can stand shooting 3"s in my pump it just wears on me. I'm not looking for a light recoiling gun so to speak. Most automatics are going to shoot lighter than a 870 pump. I want a automatic that withstand conditions that a pump can. Mainly looking for a automatic that will shoot shot after shot in 10-15 degree weather. Like duck commander says "boom, boom, boom" Nice Mwar thats what im looking for. The reason i have my eyes set on benelli. Is i read an article i think it was by guns and ammo and they shot 88,000 rounds through a benelli cordoba and not one malfunction or sign of wearing.

September 14, 2009, 03:02 PM	#8
Maromero Junior member Join Date: January 21, 2009 Location: Outside the continental U Posts: 752	Rem 11-87 No thrills, no frills, soft shooting relatively inexpensive shotgun. The good part is you can use it as a weight, paddle with it if you loose your paddle, and basically abuse it. It will work if properly maintained.

September 14, 2009, 03:13 PM	#9
greensteelforge Member Join Date: September 11, 2009 Posts: 90	If you can find a lightly used Winchester Super-X 2 or 3, you won't be disappointed, they'll cycle anything (the 3 1/2" guns have a little trouble with the REALLY light trap loads, but nothing else), and they use Browning chokes (I have a strong suspicion that the gun pictured up there is nothing more than a Super-X with a Browning label, and a jacked up price tag). After the gas guns like this have been around for a while, I doubt anyone will make an inertia driven auto twelve any more.

September 14, 2009, 03:29 PM	#10
mwar410 Senior Member Join Date: December 25, 2008 Location: maine Posts: 234	I will add that this was a replacement for a 870 express ( that would start rusting as it came out of the truck ) and an 11-87 that looked like a canoe paddle and the ejector broke several times. I think they took a 3" and just made it to chamber a 3.5", wouldn't hold up to the father- outlaws 3.5" duck rds. If you don't need the 3.5" stay away from the extrema II, it feels way to. imo the only rust areas on the urika were the swivels, and the rivet that holds the gas vent on the forearm.

September 14, 2009, 03:33 PM	#11
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	The last time I looked the Browning Golds, etc. had a shell cut-off and the Winchester didn't. A few years ago I bought a lightly used 2003 Winchester SX-2 Waterfowl 3.5" with DuraTouch coating and it has been perfect through saltwater boat rides, freezing rain, snow and all of that duck hunting stuff like dragging it through the 9-foot-tall reeds for a quarter mile to get to a blind. It cycles low brass 2.75" bird loads and is one of my favorite guns. And it's a soft shooter compared to my '93 870 Express with a Decelerator pad that I put on it (and it's 100% better than the original hard pad.) I love the DuraTouch, too. A shell cut-off would have been nice, but it wasn't a deal breaker. John

September 14, 2009, 03:34 PM	#12
rickyjames Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2009 Posts: 558	i have a police style tristar viper thats works well. i believe they make a ducks unlimited version. it might be worth some research for you. there is a field test on the net that shows an iced up gun working well.

September 14, 2009, 08:07 PM	#13
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,805	Any of the better gas guns will work fine for you but it seems like you want the Benelli. The gas guns will have less recoil, but the Benellis are not all as bad as a lot of people make them out to be. Certainly no worse than a pump or double and a good recoil pad will help. If I shot a lot of clays I would lean toward a Beretta, but personally prefer the Benelli M-2 for a hunting gun. Of course for around $30 a limbsaver pad on the 870 would help tremendously to tame recoil.

September 14, 2009, 08:58 PM	#14
5RWill Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2008 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,654	Ya i have a limbsaver i can't remember what it's for but ill look at it. Also doesn't beretta own Benelli, franchi, and stoeger?

September 15, 2009, 09:16 AM	#18
5RWill Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2008 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,654	What were your problems with the black eagle? Im mainly considering the m2, cause it's cheaper but fill me in. I mean was it like a personal preference or was actual malfunctions and other irritations?

September 15, 2009, 05:57 PM	#21
LanceOregon Junior member Join Date: May 10, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,774	My own experience has been that the Winchester Super X2 and Browning Gold shotguns absorb recoil the best, even slightly better than the Beretta 391 shotguns. Browning claims that this new Power Drive gas system on the new Maxus does even better yet. It certainly is physically the biggest gas piston that I have ever seen on a shotgun. And the ports on it are huge. However, I am happy with my current set of Berettas. I doubt I will ever buy another shotgun. --

December 10, 2009, 10:28 PM	#22
5RWill Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2008 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,654	Well my brother got a franchi I-12 for an early christmas gift. And i have to say the SOB kicks like my 870 with 3 inch mags. I wasn't impressed. Im gonna stick with my 870 until i get the chance to shoot someones benelli or try some other gas guns. Right now the rangefinder and chronograph is more important for my needs.

December 11, 2009, 01:02 AM	#23
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	Have you considered one of the 10-ga semi-auto duck/goose guns? Yeah, I know, in past threads most said a 10-ga is overkill except for duck and geese. Well, you did say you're looking for a duck gun. Those who shoot water fowl with a 10-ga as opposed to 12ga mags claim the heaver 10s have less kick and bring down more birds. Here's links to Remington and Browning 10s http://www.remington.com/products/fi...odel_SP-10.asp http://www.browning.com/products/cat...10B&catalog_=B

December 11, 2009, 01:14 AM	#24
JackSparrow Member Join Date: December 4, 2009 Posts: 24	go for the SX3. Such a light weapon, and if you feel like firing all three shots in half a second you'd be able to (450+ rounds per minute) :P

December 11, 2009, 03:16 AM	#25
5RWill Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2008 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,654	Now been looking for reliability reviews for the sx3, maxus, and the extrema 2. If i can just find one review showing the gun handling itself in 16 degree or freezing temperatures without a malfunction, im sold. I don't think i'll ever like the Inertia driven system. I mean don't get me wrong the recoil isn't that bad but when i shoot any automatic im used to lightly felt recoil with my 1100s. It was kind of a shocking factor to see the I-12 kick that much.