No Guns Allowed here!

jfinstrom · February 3, 2009, 05:29 PM

I was thinking about starting up a blog or website to track both businesses that are anti-gun and businesses who are gun friendly. Does anyone know if such a thing already exists.

The point is to promote a gun friendly atmosphere and boycott the no guns allowed crowd. I realize it is a persons right to say I cant come in armed but at the same time it is my right to help them see the financial impact of such an error

Thanks

Brian Pfleuger · February 3, 2009, 05:33 PM

Interesting idea. How would you verify the claims of pro- or anti-gun?

jfinstrom · February 3, 2009, 05:43 PM

There are obviously some semantics to work out.

My thoughts would be submit a picture of their sign and basic contact information. We can call locations and ask what their policy is on customers coming in armed. Post can be tagged confirmed or unconfirmed. The picture thing would work well in blog format otherwise If I wrote an application it would take a day or so to do and all that could be worked in.. I would also provide a way to be removed if you decided to correct your errors....

The other concern would be moderation if such a thing took off. I would be happy to call and check on a light load but hundreds a day may become a challenge.

Mr Phil · February 3, 2009, 07:26 PM

PM me about your idea and contact info I am working on something that this would be perfect with

Thanks

Brian Pfleuger · February 3, 2009, 07:36 PM

Quote:

I would also provide a way to be removed if you decided to correct your errors....

It would be interesting to advise the "anti" business' of their status and tell them that they can be removed by taking a different stance if they are so inclined. I wonder if any of them would care.

It's a pretty decent idea, IMO. Getting the word out would be trick.

Of course, in some places it's meaningless because the business has no right to ban CC in the first place.

Croz · February 3, 2009, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Of course, in some places it's meaningless because the business has no right to ban CC in the first place

Doesn't really matter. Here in FLA, companies can't prevent you from carrying, but if they're putting up "NO GUNS" signs, I'd still prefer to take my business elsewhere.

Brian Pfleuger · February 3, 2009, 08:18 PM

Quote:

I'd still prefer to take my business elsewhere.

True, as would I but in NY, at least my area, I have never seen a "no guns" sign in my entire life.

triggerhappy2006 · February 3, 2009, 08:45 PM

I live in NY too, oddly enough neither have I. Then again most of my co-workers, classmates, etc are astounded that I am carrying a tiny boot knife. "Holy crap where did you get one of those?!?!?" I am pretty sure some places have rules against it but most assume nobody has weapons.

A++ Idea on the website though.

ds1973 · February 3, 2009, 09:10 PM

Quote:

I realize it is a persons right to say I cant come in armed but at the same time it is my right to help them see the financial impact of such an error

Actually, this line of thinking is part of the problem. First, allow me to define a "right" as a freedom of action. Why is it their right to keep you out of their premises if you are armed? How does being armed violate their property rights? By being armed, are you destroying their property somehow? Are you preventing them from doing what they wish with their property?

Now, what's the point of "right to carry" if everyone can decide to post "no guns" signs. There's no freedom to carry in that case. Your freedom to carry does not infringe on the business owners freedom to do business. They'd never even know you're carrying since its concealed.

Oh yeah, and most large companies have "site policies" regarding not being able to bring firearms onto work properties. Not sure about compliance in NY (I think it's high), but when I lived in Idaho, I know for a fact people kept firearms in their vehicles.

**44 AMP** · February 3, 2009, 10:18 PM

See if you can find a business with a sign like this;
No Shirt
No Shoes
No Gun
No Service

Don't think you will, but good luck.

A grey area, with businesses, because they can be both a private owned place, and yet a public place.

I do actually support the business's right to set their store policy. They aren't infringing on me, because I don't have to go there. Unlike come govt buildings where by law I may have to go, which prohibit my bearing arms.

Your idea is a good one, but also consider all the businesses that may not post signs, but actively contribute to the anti-gun agenda. Do some reasearch, and I think you'll be surprised how many big corporations are on that list.

jfinstrom · February 3, 2009, 11:43 PM

I have taken some initial steps. I set up a blog @ http://gunfriendly.blogspot.com/ and a submission form @ http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewf...SMqSYgVrXCF-Pw

I will put it up on digg and do some other promotion to see what pops up. I will work on theming this and if support picks up putting it in a proper domain.

Glenn E. Meyer · February 4, 2009, 10:39 AM

Some states have local gun forums and subforums about business issues. Might look for that.

Chuckusaret · February 4, 2009, 11:12 AM

Quote:

.........blog or website to track both businesses that are anti-gun and businesses who are gun friendly..............

Thats a great idea. Not only would it inform us of what business to boycott it might also save us a unecessary trip. Save some gas money to buy better things elsewhere

Croz · February 4, 2009, 11:38 AM

I agree the signs are rare, but I have seen them. Besides the unintentionally ironic ones posted at gun stores, I have seen them at 2 car dealerships and one at a doctor's office. They both stress "for the safety of our employees and customers, this is a gun free zone."

Until a BG decides to ignore the sign. Then safety's pretty much out the window.

jaarond1 · February 4, 2009, 12:01 PM

I like the idea...just submited SwapGiant.com to your blog as a gun supporting site. It's a site dedicated to bartering/swapping and is getting nig very fast, especially among gun users.

Check it out and tell others about it for thier firearm ads and other things too.

http://www.swapgiant.com

Chuckusaret · February 4, 2009, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Until a BG decides to ignore the sign. Then safety's pretty much out the window.

Why would the bad guy obey the sign? The sign only restricts the good guy that has followed the laws of the land. If I were a BG I would carry out all my business at the places that have "No Guns" sign posted. Would be a safe place to rob, no guns except the BG's.

Croz · February 4, 2009, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Why would the bad guy obey the sign? The sign only restricts the good guy that has followed the laws of the land. If I were a BG I would carry out all my business at the places that have "No Guns" sign posted. Would be a safe place to rob, no guns except the BG's.

That's exactly what I meant, I just didn't say it well.

#18indycolts · February 4, 2009, 01:45 PM

just curious how you could attract the two together. Its like getting the pro & anti abortion crowd to go bowling...guns are a very touchy subject to some.

armsmaster270 · February 4, 2009, 01:51 PM

It is a nice way to tell business owners its your right. But if you don't wan't my gun you will not get any of my money.

DG45 · February 7, 2009, 01:12 AM

This is an excellent thread because as some one mentioned, if your state law says you can carry a concealed weapon and you are licensed to do so, how can a private entity prevent you from doing so? There are certain places that my state law says I may NOT carry a gun, like onto a schoolyard, even with a CCW permit, which I have. There are different points of view on that, but I understand the intent of the law. But there are a few other establishments in my home town that are not on the list of places the state law mentions as gun free zones that have put one of those red circles with a gun in it crossed over and the words No Guns Allowed written on their doors. If I carried a gun onto their premises, have I broken a law? Or am I just somebody that they consider a social undesirable that they would rather not have in their place of business? (Hey, I'm for free enterprise. I fully suscribe to the belief that a business establishment has the right to refuse service to anyone (including me) at any time for any reason, except in cases of violation of someone elses civil rights.) But if I have a CCW permit from my state, and I take a gun into one of this places that are not mentioned in my states law but who say no guns allowed anyway, and they find out about it, have I actually broken a LAW?

Croz · February 7, 2009, 09:22 AM

If their signs do not have the force of law, then you have not broken a law going in. They do have the right to ask you to leave, and you could be guilty of trespass if you do not leave after being asked.

At least, that's how my non-lawyer reading of the law in Florida works.

Chuckusaret · February 7, 2009, 10:48 AM

I'm confused. I carry 99% of the time and I have made visits to stores that do have signs stating "No Guns Allowed" without a problem. How would the stores staff know I have CCW unless I told them or for some reason that they would know that I am armed, then they could ask that I leave. Would I leave, I doubt I would because I have broken no law.

schmieg · February 7, 2009, 04:21 PM

Ohioans for Concealed Carry has done this for some time now with their "Do Not Patronize While Armed" database. You can access it from their home page at

http://www.OhioCCW.org/index.php

Contact Dan White or Jeff Garvas of OFCC and they can probably give you more information about the software and implementation.

schmieg · February 7, 2009, 04:25 PM

"I'm confused. I carry 99% of the time and I have made visits to stores that do have signs stating "No Guns Allowed" without a problem. How would the stores staff know I have CCW unless I told them or for some reason that they would know that I am armed, then they could ask that I leave. Would I leave, I doubt I would because I have broken no law."

Different states deal with this differently. In some states, the signs have no force of law and you must refuse to leave when asked before trespassing penalties apply. In other states, such as Ohio, the signs do have force of law. Knowingly entering a Criminal Protection Zone as we call them in Ohio is a 4th degree misdemeanor. The business must "conspicuously" post a sign indicating his wishes. The question becomes what is "conspicuous." Some business post tiny signs away from the door (one even posted it inside the exit door) and the question is whether that places the licensee on proper notice. So far, the police appear to have been reasonable on this issue.

dburkhead · February 7, 2009, 06:51 PM

In Indiana, even signs saying "no guns" (unless they're on government owned property) have no legal force.

However, the owners or their proxies (which generally mean employees in the case of a business) can ask you to leave the premises for any reason. Failure to leave when asked is trespass and is illegal.

February 3, 2009, 05:33 PM	#2
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Interesting idea. How would you verify the claims of pro- or anti-gun? __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

February 3, 2009, 07:26 PM	#4
Mr Phil Member Join Date: January 23, 2009 Posts: 43	PM me about your idea and contact info I am working on something that this would be perfect with Thanks __________________ Don't bother running away ... you'll only die tired.

February 3, 2009, 10:18 PM	#10
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	Here's a thought... See if you can find a business with a sign like this; No Shirt No Shoes No Gun No Service Don't think you will, but good luck. A grey area, with businesses, because they can be both a private owned place, and yet a public place. I do actually support the business's right to set their store policy. They aren't infringing on me, because I don't have to go there. Unlike come govt buildings where by law I may have to go, which prohibit my bearing arms. Your idea is a good one, but also consider all the businesses that may not post signs, but actively contribute to the anti-gun agenda. Do some reasearch, and I think you'll be surprised how many big corporations are on that list. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 4, 2009, 10:39 AM	#12
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Some states have local gun forums and subforums about business issues. Might look for that. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

February 4, 2009, 12:01 PM	#15
jaarond1 Junior Member Join Date: January 21, 2009 Posts: 9	SwapGiant.com I like the idea...just submited SwapGiant.com to your blog as a gun supporting site. It's a site dedicated to bartering/swapping and is getting nig very fast, especially among gun users. Check it out and tell others about it for thier firearm ads and other things too. http://www.swapgiant.com

February 3, 2009, 05:29 PM	#1
jfinstrom Junior Member Join Date: February 3, 2009 Location: Tempe, AZ Posts: 3	No Guns Allowed here! I was thinking about starting up a blog or website to track both businesses that are anti-gun and businesses who are gun friendly. Does anyone know if such a thing already exists. The point is to promote a gun friendly atmosphere and boycott the no guns allowed crowd. I realize it is a persons right to say I cant come in armed but at the same time it is my right to help them see the financial impact of such an error Thanks

February 3, 2009, 05:43 PM	#3
jfinstrom Junior Member Join Date: February 3, 2009 Location: Tempe, AZ Posts: 3	There are obviously some semantics to work out. My thoughts would be submit a picture of their sign and basic contact information. We can call locations and ask what their policy is on customers coming in armed. Post can be tagged confirmed or unconfirmed. The picture thing would work well in blog format otherwise If I wrote an application it would take a day or so to do and all that could be worked in.. I would also provide a way to be removed if you decided to correct your errors.... The other concern would be moderation if such a thing took off. I would be happy to call and check on a light load but hundreds a day may become a challenge.

February 3, 2009, 08:45 PM	#8
triggerhappy2006 Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2006 Posts: 452	I live in NY too, oddly enough neither have I. Then again most of my co-workers, classmates, etc are astounded that I am carrying a tiny boot knife. "Holy crap where did you get one of those?!?!?" I am pretty sure some places have rules against it but most assume nobody has weapons. A++ Idea on the website though.

February 3, 2009, 11:43 PM	#11
jfinstrom Junior Member Join Date: February 3, 2009 Location: Tempe, AZ Posts: 3	I have taken some initial steps. I set up a blog @ http://gunfriendly.blogspot.com/ and a submission form @ http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewf...SMqSYgVrXCF-Pw I will put it up on digg and do some other promotion to see what pops up. I will work on theming this and if support picks up putting it in a proper domain.

February 4, 2009, 11:38 AM	#14
Croz Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2008 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 307	I agree the signs are rare, but I have seen them. Besides the unintentionally ironic ones posted at gun stores, I have seen them at 2 car dealerships and one at a doctor's office. They both stress "for the safety of our employees and customers, this is a gun free zone." Until a BG decides to ignore the sign. Then safety's pretty much out the window.

February 4, 2009, 01:45 PM	#18
#18indycolts Junior member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Indpls Posts: 1,159	just curious how you could attract the two together. Its like getting the pro & anti abortion crowd to go bowling...guns are a very touchy subject to some.

February 4, 2009, 01:51 PM	#19
armsmaster270 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Location: California Posts: 1,951	It is a nice way to tell business owners its your right. But if you don't wan't my gun you will not get any of my money. __________________ http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/ Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.

February 7, 2009, 01:12 AM	#20
DG45 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Posts: 904	This is an excellent thread because as some one mentioned, if your state law says you can carry a concealed weapon and you are licensed to do so, how can a private entity prevent you from doing so? There are certain places that my state law says I may NOT carry a gun, like onto a schoolyard, even with a CCW permit, which I have. There are different points of view on that, but I understand the intent of the law. But there are a few other establishments in my home town that are not on the list of places the state law mentions as gun free zones that have put one of those red circles with a gun in it crossed over and the words No Guns Allowed written on their doors. If I carried a gun onto their premises, have I broken a law? Or am I just somebody that they consider a social undesirable that they would rather not have in their place of business? (Hey, I'm for free enterprise. I fully suscribe to the belief that a business establishment has the right to refuse service to anyone (including me) at any time for any reason, except in cases of violation of someone elses civil rights.) But if I have a CCW permit from my state, and I take a gun into one of this places that are not mentioned in my states law but who say no guns allowed anyway, and they find out about it, have I actually broken a LAW?

February 7, 2009, 09:22 AM	#21
Croz Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2008 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 307	If their signs do not have the force of law, then you have not broken a law going in. They do have the right to ask you to leave, and you could be guilty of trespass if you do not leave after being asked. At least, that's how my non-lawyer reading of the law in Florida works.

February 7, 2009, 10:48 AM	#22
Chuckusaret Junior member Join Date: December 5, 2008 Location: Florida Posts: 708	I'm confused. I carry 99% of the time and I have made visits to stores that do have signs stating "No Guns Allowed" without a problem. How would the stores staff know I have CCW unless I told them or for some reason that they would know that I am armed, then they could ask that I leave. Would I leave, I doubt I would because I have broken no law.

February 7, 2009, 04:21 PM	#23
schmieg Junior Member Join Date: February 5, 2009 Posts: 4	Ohioans for Concealed Carry has done this for some time now with their "Do Not Patronize While Armed" database. You can access it from their home page at http://www.OhioCCW.org/index.php Contact Dan White or Jeff Garvas of OFCC and they can probably give you more information about the software and implementation.

February 7, 2009, 04:25 PM	#24
schmieg Junior Member Join Date: February 5, 2009 Posts: 4	"I'm confused. I carry 99% of the time and I have made visits to stores that do have signs stating "No Guns Allowed" without a problem. How would the stores staff know I have CCW unless I told them or for some reason that they would know that I am armed, then they could ask that I leave. Would I leave, I doubt I would because I have broken no law." Different states deal with this differently. In some states, the signs have no force of law and you must refuse to leave when asked before trespassing penalties apply. In other states, such as Ohio, the signs do have force of law. Knowingly entering a Criminal Protection Zone as we call them in Ohio is a 4th degree misdemeanor. The business must "conspicuously" post a sign indicating his wishes. The question becomes what is "conspicuous." Some business post tiny signs away from the door (one even posted it inside the exit door) and the question is whether that places the licensee on proper notice. So far, the police appear to have been reasonable on this issue.

February 7, 2009, 06:51 PM	#25
dburkhead Senior Member Join Date: March 10, 2008 Posts: 116	In Indiana, even signs saying "no guns" (unless they're on government owned property) have no legal force. However, the owners or their proxies (which generally mean employees in the case of a business) can ask you to leave the premises for any reason. Failure to leave when asked is trespass and is illegal. __________________ The award winning fantasy series "Heroes in Hell" returns this July with the new collection "Lawyers in Hell." http://heroesinhell.wordpress.com/ Including a new story by David L. Burkhead