Get rid of moisture!

JTReloader · December 6, 2016, 02:26 AM

Well my first post was in the wrong section, I hope I got it this time! Let me know if I'm not in the reloading section.

I'm just starting out reloading and built myself a nice bench. My biggest issue was how to store my powder. I ended up incorporating a small cabinet in the shells of my bench that would easily allow for pressure to escape in the event of a fire AKA no bomb

I'm concerned with mouistire though. The bench is in my garage, one room over from the heat source. I was wondering what you guys might advise for keeping my powder and primers moisture free. I've thought about baking soda sitting in with the powder, but I've seen things like Damprid at Home Depot. Thanks in advance!!!

kxkid · December 6, 2016, 04:53 AM

I kept mine in my garage for 4 years in Arizona and haven't had a issue. Keep the lids on and tight you will be fine. Also keep them out of direct sunlight.

SARuger · December 6, 2016, 05:16 AM

I use an old stand-up style freezer. It was free. It easily blends in to the other stuff in the pantry.

I just added a dehumidifier box, like the ones they sell at the dollar store, keeps all the moisture out. Change out the box every couple of months

Hog head · December 6, 2016, 07:26 AM

My powder and primers are in a detached garage with no heat (unless I'm in it) and has been there 15 years. It gets a bit humid in summer(understatement) and have had no problems as long as the cans are closed tight. The primers are in the original boxes also.

FITASC · December 6, 2016, 07:37 AM

I live in FL; humidity above 70% is a given everyday. My components like powder and primers sit in a closet inside until it is time to reload. No issues. When I lived in the arid West, leaving things in the garage was no big deal; so it comes down to where you live and what the conditions are.

Reloadron · December 6, 2016, 09:15 AM

Any container which seals well like as mentioned an old refrigerator or freezer right down to the common steel ammunition cans. When moisture is a concern just add a package of desiccant which can be bought in assorted sizes. Reloading components like powder and primers, like loaded ammunition fare best when stored in a cool dry location. A good read on storage and handling of powder and components. Desiccant is renewable, you simply bake it out in an oven.

Ron

**Unclenick** · December 6, 2016, 09:19 AM

Board member Slamfire has posted test information from the U.S. Navy showing powder in 7.62 NATO rounds exposed to 140°F for, IIRC, 18 months produced dangerous pressures because the deterrent coatings had deteriorated, speeding up the powder burn rate. The trunk of a car in Arizona can get significantly warmer than that. I don't know about people's garages in Arizona. Here in Ohio, mine gets to around 95° in summer, despite a common wall with the air conditioned house, and gets below freezing in winter. Humidity varies all over the map in there, too. There is also information to suggest expansion and contraction of powder grains, whether due to temperature cycling or humidity cycling, causes breakdown to start sooner than a steady condition that is within reason does. So I would never try to keep powder in my own garage due to those temperature swings.

This paper is an interesting read. Among other things, it points out the getting humidity too low promotes static cling which can affect powder metering. He's thinking 40-50% is a good humidity level. Of course, he lives in Arizona where it is easy to achieve that.

Note that you don't have to heat air much above ambient to reduce RH. If you have a basement with 80% RH at 65°F, using a small heater like the gun safe heaters to raise the cabinet temperature to 75°F drops relative humidity to 57%. Warmer air dissolves and hangs onto water better.

This calculator is useful for figuring this out. Put in the temperature and its relative humidity of your basement and push the calculate button to let it calculate the dew point (the amount of dissolved water per cubic unit of space is what this number reflects). Then push the clear button on the RH window, change the temperature to the amount you intend to raise it to in the cabinet, then press the calculate button again to let it find the new RH from that new temperature and the dew point. That will be the change you will get.

Bucksnort1 · December 6, 2016, 09:28 AM

kxkid,

A couple of questions here. Is the storage area of your garage air conditioned either with a swamp cooler or a standard air conditioner? You mention four years. Did you stop storing in the garage after four years or is that just how long you've been doing it?

The reason I ask is because last summer, knowing I would be moving to Arizona (I've been here for two weeks), I asked members of another Arizona forum if they have problem storing powder in hot garages. The answer was, as you state, there were no problems; however, some say they use a small refrigerator.

nhyrum · December 6, 2016, 10:23 AM

Here's what I do. I buy large Tupperware with rubber gaskets, and store everything but powder in them. I keep them labeled so nothing gets mixed up. If I go a few days between priming and loading, they go in a Tupperware too. And in each container is 1 or more 1lb descant bags, which occasionally get put on the oven on warm for a few hours. My reloading room will get above 90%rh in the summer. Just keep powder tight and don't open it till you're ready to use it

F. Guffey · December 6, 2016, 10:34 AM

It is not difficult to achieve low moisture levels, I have never read a reloader discussing a barrier meaning adding moisture is the problem and then there are those that assume their containers are sealed; if the container is sealed how can additional moisture get into the powder.

So there is a way but convincing a reloader it can be done is the difficult part.

F. Guffey

g.willikers · December 6, 2016, 10:52 AM

Quote:

I kept mine in my garage for 4 years in Arizona

Doesn't count.

I've lived mostly east of the Mississippi, and just keeping powders in a tightly closed container has been enough to keep them healthy, regardless of location or conditions.

Bucksnort1 · December 6, 2016, 11:54 AM

g.willikers,

And living in a more humid environment than AZ, would certainly require air tight containers.

rg1 · December 6, 2016, 11:57 AM

Moisture would be more of a problem for rust on your press and dies. I would be more concerned about heat than moisture.

T. O'Heir · December 6, 2016, 12:41 PM

"...AKA no bomb..." Smokeless powder doesn't explode. It just burns quickly. Any container that is air tight(like a refrigerator) can burst though. If there's enough powder stored in 'em. Takes a great deal of burning powder(also why there are powder storage without a magazine laws) to fill and not be contained in a refrigerator that's 15-30 cubic feet capacity.
However, any non-air tight container like the typical steel cabinets and "gun safes" can be kept moisture free fairly inexpensively by running a low wattage light bulb all the time.
Descant bags are pricey and require periodic replacement.
How humid does Arizona's desert get? Just curious.
40-50% isn't humid. London can get to 85% on summer mornings.

RC20 · December 6, 2016, 03:22 PM

I believe McMasters has very low cost descant bags

Or you can make your own from the Silica desiccant refill for filters (Grainger)

Put in some kind of fine mesh bag and good to go. (panty hose)

Reloadron · December 6, 2016, 04:32 PM

Thread served as a reminder it was about time to remove all my desiccant bags from the safe and bake them out. Not a big deal since here in NE Ohio winters are typically dry. Right now the outside RH is about 87% and no surprise it is a cold rain coming down. Dry indoors because we heat with a natural gas fired furnace. Average in the house about 70 degrees F. with a RH of < 50%. The gun safe is about the same. Likely don't even need the desiccant bags.

Ron

F. Guffey · December 6, 2016, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Thread served as a reminder it was about time to remove all my desiccant bags from the safe and bake them out.

I have put a few dryer systems together including air tanks for compressed air and sand blasting equipment. It never fails when someone runs out and the sand is heavy they want to know where they can get more desiccant. And I always ask about the desiccant they were using.

And I know how hard headed reloaders and machinist can be. I always suggest they make a dryer and if they want to speed things up they can heat it.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey · December 6, 2016, 06:31 PM

Quote:

However, any non-air tight container like the typical steel cabinets and "gun safes" can be kept moisture free fairly inexpensively by running a low wattage light bulb all the time.

That works on Pianos also. The price of a Steinway upright is $10,000 + and the concert goes for $80,000 +.

F. Guffey

Reloadron · December 7, 2016, 08:49 AM

F. Guffy:

Quote:

I have put a few dryer systems together including air tanks for compressed air and sand blasting equipment. It never fails when someone runs out and the sand is heavy they want to know where they can get more desiccant. And I always ask about the desiccant they were using.

And I know how hard headed reloaders and machinist can be. I always suggest they make a dryer and if they want to speed things up they can heat it.

While an air drying system is undoubtedly nice in most situations it is unneeded. I just use some HumiSorb Desiccant Moisture Absorbant - 1.5lb Reusable Bags which last for years and are easily baked out. I can buy 10 bags for $50 which last well over 5 years and just five bags keep a large gun safe (or large storage container) relative humidity around 40% or so. I toss them on oven racks abd bake at 250 F (convect) for about 8 hours. An air drying system just would not be practical for my gun safe operation, especially as I am adding another safe soon.

A couple of bags placed in an old freezer (with an easy open magnetic strip door) would likely make for a very good powder and primer storage container. In all fairness my earlier posted link does reference NFPA laws regarding powder storage and local laws may apply.

Ron

F. Guffey · December 7, 2016, 09:56 AM

Quote:

While an air drying system is undoubtedly nice in most situations it is unneeded.

Reloadron, you are the greatest, I can only guess you missed the part about hard headed reloaders and machinist. I have added tanks meaning the air system had two tanks, one wet and the other dry. And then there is that thing about compressed air, when air is compressed the moisture is forced out and settles in the bottom of the tank as water. I am surrounded by air tank operators that have never heard of draining tanks of water daily. The rest of them have heard of draining tanks daily but have trouble getting to the drain valve so I move the valves and on some I add a cable operated drain.

https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...l_3iwrdne2ha_e

The nice thing about the cable is about gaining accessibility. I try to mount the cable near a door and then suggest ever time the operator passes through the door pull the cable. And then there are wrecking yards of all kinds. Truck salvage makes it possible to purchases a cycle dump system. They are expensive and can be rebuilt. And then there are automotive salvage years. A reloader that knows his way around can use/modify an accumulator to dry desiccant.

F. Guffey

Reloadron · December 7, 2016, 10:06 AM

F. Guffy, while I don't want to get off the topic, before I retired, we had gone to tank bleeds which automatically would bleed the condensate (moisture) in our storage tanks. While air was used for pneumatic valves and such our biggest use was high pressure dry pumped nitrogen. Anyway, the automatic bleed systems were working well when I retired. Checking them is also part of a check list that is followed each shift change.

Ron

nhyrum · December 7, 2016, 03:50 PM

Well, I figured I'd share(again)

These are what I use. I work in the copier/printer industry, and each machine that comes in, arrives with one of these large bags of desiccant, so naturally I have about 50 laying around the house, not counting the ones actually in use.

If you want, I'll stuff a USPS flat rate box with however many fit, you just pay postage.

This is the humidity I work in in the summer

disseminator · December 7, 2016, 08:26 PM

I had a lot of problems when I first set up in my basement with humidity. It was getting to my dies and rusting them and anything else in addition it wasn't very comfortable to be down here in 70%+ humidity.

I bought one of these: https://smile.amazon.com/AcuRite-006...Bmonitor&th=1r

After discovering how humid it really was, I splurged on a nice dehumidifier and it has never been so nice down here. Everything dried up and because of that it is a lot nicer just being in here.

Now my reloading room is 40-50% all the time and it's great.

I also use desiccant for extra dryness. Get it on Amazon.

kxkid · December 8, 2016, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucksnort1

kxkid,

A couple of questions here. Is the storage area of your garage air conditioned either with a swamp cooler or a standard air conditioner? You mention four years. Did you stop storing in the garage after four years or is that just how long you've been doing it?

The reason I ask is because last summer, knowing I would be moving to Arizona (I've been here for two weeks), I asked members of another Arizona forum if they have problem storing powder in hot garages. The answer was, as you state, there were no problems; however, some say they use a small refrigerator.

I moved to Vegas and my reloading is done in my house now, so that's where I store everything now since I don't have room in my garage here. Using a refrigerator just gives them piece of mind. As long as the containers are not in direct Sun light you will be fine, even when it storms and is humid as heck I never had a problem.

December 6, 2016, 02:26 AM	#1
JTReloader Member Join Date: December 3, 2016 Posts: 17	Get rid of moisture! Well my first post was in the wrong section, I hope I got it this time! Let me know if I'm not in the reloading section. I'm just starting out reloading and built myself a nice bench. My biggest issue was how to store my powder. I ended up incorporating a small cabinet in the shells of my bench that would easily allow for pressure to escape in the event of a fire AKA no bomb I'm concerned with mouistire though. The bench is in my garage, one room over from the heat source. I was wondering what you guys might advise for keeping my powder and primers moisture free. I've thought about baking soda sitting in with the powder, but I've seen things like Damprid at Home Depot. Thanks in advance!!!

December 6, 2016, 07:26 AM	#4
Hog head Member Join Date: March 26, 2009 Location: east TN. Posts: 66	My powder and primers are in a detached garage with no heat (unless I'm in it) and has been there 15 years. It gets a bit humid in summer(understatement) and have had no problems as long as the cans are closed tight. The primers are in the original boxes also. __________________ The government is like a baby's alimentary canal,with a happy appetite at one end and no responsibility at the other............Ronald Reagan

December 6, 2016, 07:37 AM	#5
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,441	I live in FL; humidity above 70% is a given everyday. My components like powder and primers sit in a closet inside until it is time to reload. No issues. When I lived in the arid West, leaving things in the garage was no big deal; so it comes down to where you live and what the conditions are. __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

December 6, 2016, 09:19 AM	#7
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Board member Slamfire has posted test information from the U.S. Navy showing powder in 7.62 NATO rounds exposed to 140°F for, IIRC, 18 months produced dangerous pressures because the deterrent coatings had deteriorated, speeding up the powder burn rate. The trunk of a car in Arizona can get significantly warmer than that. I don't know about people's garages in Arizona. Here in Ohio, mine gets to around 95° in summer, despite a common wall with the air conditioned house, and gets below freezing in winter. Humidity varies all over the map in there, too. There is also information to suggest expansion and contraction of powder grains, whether due to temperature cycling or humidity cycling, causes breakdown to start sooner than a steady condition that is within reason does. So I would never try to keep powder in my own garage due to those temperature swings. This paper is an interesting read. Among other things, it points out the getting humidity too low promotes static cling which can affect powder metering. He's thinking 40-50% is a good humidity level. Of course, he lives in Arizona where it is easy to achieve that. Note that you don't have to heat air much above ambient to reduce RH. If you have a basement with 80% RH at 65°F, using a small heater like the gun safe heaters to raise the cabinet temperature to 75°F drops relative humidity to 57%. Warmer air dissolves and hangs onto water better. This calculator is useful for figuring this out. Put in the temperature and its relative humidity of your basement and push the calculate button to let it calculate the dew point (the amount of dissolved water per cubic unit of space is what this number reflects). Then push the clear button on the RH window, change the temperature to the amount you intend to raise it to in the cabinet, then press the calculate button again to let it find the new RH from that new temperature and the dew point. That will be the change you will get. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 6, 2016, 09:28 AM	#8
Bucksnort1 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2013 Location: Littleton, Colorado Posts: 1,121	Get Rid of Moisture kxkid, A couple of questions here. Is the storage area of your garage air conditioned either with a swamp cooler or a standard air conditioner? You mention four years. Did you stop storing in the garage after four years or is that just how long you've been doing it? The reason I ask is because last summer, knowing I would be moving to Arizona (I've been here for two weeks), I asked members of another Arizona forum if they have problem storing powder in hot garages. The answer was, as you state, there were no problems; however, some say they use a small refrigerator.

December 6, 2016, 04:53 AM	#2
kxkid Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2011 Posts: 207	I kept mine in my garage for 4 years in Arizona and haven't had a issue. Keep the lids on and tight you will be fine. Also keep them out of direct sunlight.

December 6, 2016, 05:16 AM	#3
SARuger Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2014 Location: Blue Ridge Mountains of VA Posts: 954	I use an old stand-up style freezer. It was free. It easily blends in to the other stuff in the pantry. I just added a dehumidifier box, like the ones they sell at the dollar store, keeps all the moisture out. Change out the box every couple of months

December 6, 2016, 09:15 AM	#6
Reloadron Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2016 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Suburbs Posts: 1,750	Any container which seals well like as mentioned an old refrigerator or freezer right down to the common steel ammunition cans. When moisture is a concern just add a package of *desiccant which can be bought in assorted sizes. Reloading components like powder and primers, like loaded ammunition fare best when stored in a cool dry location. A good read on storage and handling of powder and components*. Desiccant is renewable, you simply bake it out in an oven. Ron

December 6, 2016, 10:23 AM	#9
nhyrum Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2016 Posts: 588	Here's what I do. I buy large Tupperware with rubber gaskets, and store everything but powder in them. I keep them labeled so nothing gets mixed up. If I go a few days between priming and loading, they go in a Tupperware too. And in each container is 1 or more 1lb descant bags, which occasionally get put on the oven on warm for a few hours. My reloading room will get above 90%rh in the summer. Just keep powder tight and don't open it till you're ready to use it

December 6, 2016, 10:34 AM	#10
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	It is not difficult to achieve low moisture levels, I have never read a reloader discussing a barrier meaning adding moisture is the problem and then there are those that assume their containers are sealed; if the container is sealed how can additional moisture get into the powder. So there is a way but convincing a reloader it can be done is the difficult part. F. Guffey

December 6, 2016, 11:54 AM	#12
Bucksnort1 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2013 Location: Littleton, Colorado Posts: 1,121	g.willikers, And living in a more humid environment than AZ, would certainly require air tight containers.

December 6, 2016, 11:57 AM	#13
rg1 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2001 Posts: 1,125	Moisture would be more of a problem for rust on your press and dies. I would be more concerned about heat than moisture.

December 6, 2016, 12:41 PM	#14
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...AKA no bomb..." Smokeless powder doesn't explode. It just burns quickly. Any container that is air tight(like a refrigerator) can burst though. If there's enough powder stored in 'em. Takes a great deal of burning powder(also why there are powder storage without a magazine laws) to fill and not be contained in a refrigerator that's 15-30 cubic feet capacity. However, any non-air tight container like the typical steel cabinets and "gun safes" can be kept moisture free fairly inexpensively by running a low wattage light bulb all the time. Descant bags are pricey and require periodic replacement. How humid does Arizona's desert get? Just curious. 40-50% isn't humid. London can get to 85% on summer mornings. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

December 6, 2016, 03:22 PM	#15
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	I believe McMasters has very low cost descant bags Or you can make your own from the Silica desiccant refill for filters (Grainger) Put in some kind of fine mesh bag and good to go. (panty hose)

December 6, 2016, 04:32 PM	#16
Reloadron Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2016 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Suburbs Posts: 1,750	Thread served as a reminder it was about time to remove all my desiccant bags from the safe and bake them out. Not a big deal since here in NE Ohio winters are typically dry. Right now the outside RH is about 87% and no surprise it is a cold rain coming down. Dry indoors because we heat with a natural gas fired furnace. Average in the house about 70 degrees F. with a RH of < 50%. The gun safe is about the same. Likely don't even need the desiccant bags. Ron

December 7, 2016, 10:06 AM	#21
Reloadron Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2016 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Suburbs Posts: 1,750	F. Guffy, while I don't want to get off the topic, before I retired, we had gone to tank bleeds which automatically would bleed the condensate (moisture) in our storage tanks. While air was used for pneumatic valves and such our biggest use was high pressure dry pumped nitrogen. Anyway, the automatic bleed systems were working well when I retired. Checking them is also part of a check list that is followed each shift change. Ron

December 7, 2016, 03:50 PM	#22
nhyrum Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2016 Posts: 588	Well, I figured I'd share(again) These are what I use. I work in the copier/printer industry, and each machine that comes in, arrives with one of these large bags of desiccant, so naturally I have about 50 laying around the house, not counting the ones actually in use. If you want, I'll stuff a USPS flat rate box with however many fit, you just pay postage. This is the humidity I work in in the summer Last edited by nhyrum; December 8, 2016 at 05:37 PM.

December 7, 2016, 08:26 PM	#23
disseminator Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2016 Location: Minnesota Posts: 960	I had a lot of problems when I first set up in my basement with humidity. It was getting to my dies and rusting them and anything else in addition it wasn't very comfortable to be down here in 70%+ humidity. I bought one of these: https://smile.amazon.com/AcuRite-006...Bmonitor&th=1r After discovering how humid it really was, I splurged on a nice dehumidifier and it has never been so nice down here. Everything dried up and because of that it is a lot nicer just being in here. Now my reloading room is 40-50% all the time and it's great. I also use desiccant for extra dryness. Get it on Amazon.