First 9mm reloads fired, now I need your advice please. - Page 2

noylj · July 22, 2016, 05:14 AM

As 44AMp says, Unless you have the same lot of powder, the same lot of bullets, the same primers and cases, loaded to the same COL and used in the SAME gun, how can you hope to be close to what they found with their test gun?
I am amazed that we do so well with data from a manual with so many variables all varying at the same time.

**44 AMP** · July 22, 2016, 10:40 AM

Quote:

I am amazed that we do so well with data from a manual with so many variables all varying at the same time.

The reason we do so well is that despite the huge number of variables that created measurable differences, the number of variables that create significant differences is fairly small.

Everything we make as a production item has tolerances, which are generally a range, not a precision point. The range is set so that everything within it works and is safe, but the fact that tolerances are a range means there are measurable differences.

Every now and then, these measurable differences "stack up" and create real significant differences. That's WHY there are starting loads, and max loads, and why they differ in different guns with different components.

It's why the number one rule of handloading is to be safe, and work up loads for your gun IN YOUR GUN, paying close attention to how your gun behaves, and not taking anyone's data, published or not, as gospel.

IdahoG36 · July 22, 2016, 11:42 AM

When working up pistol loads for target practice and range use, I work up a load until it functions 100% in my semi autos and produces decent accuracy.

Some powders I know, based on previous experience using them, will function reliably at the starting load listed in my load manuals. Power Pistol, Ramshot Silhouette, IMR 800X, and Hodgdon Longshot are such powders.

I have read several accounts of certain powders like Unique and 700X are pretty anemic at the starting loads, and can cause soot around the case mouth and feed/eject issues with semi autos. Once a load is worked up to the medium to near max recommended powder charge, they seem to function fine.

I perform the same load workup with every new pistol load that I try. I load from the starting load to max in .2gr increments, 10 rounds at each charge. I shoot 5 over the chronograph, and 5 at the target.

For plinking rounds, if function is 100% at the stating load then that's what I'll use. It saves powder and wear and tear on the firearm, and the recoil is mild. If loading pistol ammo for hunting or self defense use, I'm looking for a good mix of velocity, accuracy, and bullet expansion. This is usually found at mid to near max load levels.

pathdoc · July 23, 2016, 07:37 AM

noylj, I am not even firing for velocity, and if I were, I couldn't care less what I got - my approach is that of IdahoG36, climb the ladder until I find the first load that cycles reliably and stop there.

I don't care if those functioning loads are crawling out the barrel at 700fps. We shall see what happens when they meet steel plate. Right now I'm still trying to get my shooting consistent.

judgecrater · July 24, 2016, 08:57 AM

Stay between the min and max power load! Plan on problems if you go far below min as you did. Going extremely below starting loads can cause a bullet to lodge in the barrel with disastrous results if you then fire a second bullet behind it.

As mentioned do the "plunk test." Your overall length must be in a specific range for your barrel and your bullet. OAL, either too short or too long can cause failures to feed. Over all lengths given in the manuals are only a recommendation as most likely they are not using exactly the same shape bullet that you are. Here again the plunk test will help determine if your OAL is too long for your barrel. Get together with an experienced handloader in your area if you can. Most will be happy to assist you with your new hobby.

wingman · July 24, 2016, 10:05 AM

Please consider cleaning your chamber well, as a reloader who shoots a lot of mild loads I polish my chambers, have not has a feed failure in years except for a bad mag.

pathdoc · July 25, 2016, 04:36 PM

Judgecrater, I've been reloading per se for eight years, but this is both my first "straight walled" (or at least non-bottleneck) case, my first pistol cartridge, and my first time loading for a self-loader.

The underloads I got were direct from the mouth of someone at one of the powder companies.

I was well aware that I was starting very low relative to some published loads for other manufacturers' projectiles in these weights, and mindful of the implications which came from that. At all times, I shot for function, standing close enough to ensure that new holes were appearing in the target with every shot. Had this not happened, I would have been tipped off immediately about barrel lodgement

(I've had squibs before, due to failure to load, at various times, a .303 British cartridge and a .410 shotshell with the powder charge. So... been there, done that.)

Chamber got a damn good polish last time I shot. Although everything did, really, because it got a bit wet out there and I made sure it got a good wipe down.

Jeffm004 · July 25, 2016, 07:11 PM

Be very sure to check for a bullet in the barrel if it does not eject. Good luck.

pathdoc · December 13, 2016, 08:33 PM

The final report: 3.7gn behind the 124gn Winchesters cycled the action every time (10 rounds). 3.9gn (also 10) was little different, so I will either stay with 3.7 or split the difference at 3.8 and call it a day.

There was ONE failure to run fully into battery with each batch, which I think was probably assembly issues. My bad. But once they went in, they never failed to fire or eject, and all shots were observed to make holes on paper. This is good news. I think I will call it quits there, and not try to go any higher. Now that winter is properly setting in, shooting will be on the back-burner so if I reload 10 or 20 here or there I can have a sizeable stock by the time things start back up in 2017.

Thanks all for your help, advice and input.

DaleA · December 14, 2016, 05:44 PM

Reloading can be a fun and very satisfying way to spend an evening especially when you (now) have some confidence in your load.

How was the accuracy?

Years ago I shot a lot of .45 ACP target and we did what you did, loaded up our 200 grain lead semi-wadcutters with just enough oomph to cycle the action. The cheapskates used 185 grain lead semi-wadcutters and probably saved a couple bucks during a season.

July 22, 2016, 05:14 AM	#26
noylj Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2007 Location: Between CA and NM Posts: 858	As 44AMp says, Unless you have the same lot of powder, the same lot of bullets, the same primers and cases, loaded to the same COL and used in the SAME gun, how can you hope to be close to what they found with their test gun? I am amazed that we do so well with data from a manual with so many variables all varying at the same time.

July 22, 2016, 11:42 AM	#28
IdahoG36 Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2006 Location: Boise, Idaho Posts: 2,993	When working up pistol loads for target practice and range use, I work up a load until it functions 100% in my semi autos and produces decent accuracy. Some powders I know, based on previous experience using them, will function reliably at the starting load listed in my load manuals. Power Pistol, Ramshot Silhouette, IMR 800X, and Hodgdon Longshot are such powders. I have read several accounts of certain powders like Unique and 700X are pretty anemic at the starting loads, and can cause soot around the case mouth and feed/eject issues with semi autos. Once a load is worked up to the medium to near max recommended powder charge, they seem to function fine. I perform the same load workup with every new pistol load that I try. I load from the starting load to max in .2gr increments, 10 rounds at each charge. I shoot 5 over the chronograph, and 5 at the target. For plinking rounds, if function is 100% at the stating load then that's what I'll use. It saves powder and wear and tear on the firearm, and the recoil is mild. If loading pistol ammo for hunting or self defense use, I'm looking for a good mix of velocity, accuracy, and bullet expansion. This is usually found at mid to near max load levels.

July 23, 2016, 07:37 AM	#29
pathdoc Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2013 Posts: 669	noylj, I am not even firing for velocity, and if I were, I couldn't care less what I got - my approach is that of IdahoG36, climb the ladder until I find the first load that cycles reliably and stop there. I don't care if those functioning loads are crawling out the barrel at 700fps. We shall see what happens when they meet steel plate. Right now I'm still trying to get my shooting consistent.

July 24, 2016, 08:57 AM	#30
judgecrater Member Join Date: March 6, 2012 Posts: 63	Stay between the min and max power load! Plan on problems if you go far below min as you did. Going extremely below starting loads can cause a bullet to lodge in the barrel with disastrous results if you then fire a second bullet behind it. As mentioned do the "plunk test." Your overall length must be in a specific range for your barrel and your bullet. OAL, either too short or too long can cause failures to feed. Over all lengths given in the manuals are only a recommendation as most likely they are not using exactly the same shape bullet that you are. Here again the plunk test will help determine if your OAL is too long for your barrel. Get together with an experienced handloader in your area if you can. Most will be happy to assist you with your new hobby.

July 24, 2016, 10:05 AM	#31
wingman Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2002 Posts: 2,108	Please consider cleaning your chamber well, as a reloader who shoots a lot of mild loads I polish my chambers, have not has a feed failure in years except for a bad mag.

July 25, 2016, 04:36 PM	#32
pathdoc Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2013 Posts: 669	Judgecrater, I've been reloading per se for eight years, but this is both my first "straight walled" (or at least non-bottleneck) case, my first pistol cartridge, and my first time loading for a self-loader. The underloads I got were direct from the mouth of someone at one of the powder companies. I was well aware that I was starting very low relative to some published loads for other manufacturers' projectiles in these weights, and mindful of the implications which came from that. At all times, I shot for function, standing close enough to ensure that new holes were appearing in the target with every shot. Had this not happened, I would have been tipped off immediately about barrel lodgement (I've had squibs before, due to failure to load, at various times, a .303 British cartridge and a .410 shotshell with the powder charge. So... been there, done that.) Chamber got a damn good polish last time I shot. Although everything did, really, because it got a bit wet out there and I made sure it got a good wipe down.

July 25, 2016, 07:11 PM	#33
Jeffm004 Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2013 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 255	Be very sure to check for a bullet in the barrel if it does not eject. Good luck.

December 13, 2016, 08:33 PM	#34
pathdoc Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2013 Posts: 669	The final report: 3.7gn behind the 124gn Winchesters cycled the action every time (10 rounds). 3.9gn (also 10) was little different, so I will either stay with 3.7 or split the difference at 3.8 and call it a day. There was ONE failure to run fully into battery with each batch, which I think was probably assembly issues. My bad. But once they went in, they never failed to fire or eject, and all shots were observed to make holes on paper. This is good news. I think I will call it quits there, and not try to go any higher. Now that winter is properly setting in, shooting will be on the back-burner so if I reload 10 or 20 here or there I can have a sizeable stock by the time things start back up in 2017. Thanks all for your help, advice and input.

December 14, 2016, 05:44 PM	#35
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,313	Reloading can be a fun and very satisfying way to spend an evening especially when you (now) have some confidence in your load. How was the accuracy? Years ago I shot a lot of .45 ACP target and we did what you did, loaded up our 200 grain lead semi-wadcutters with just enough oomph to cycle the action. The cheapskates used 185 grain lead semi-wadcutters and probably saved a couple bucks during a season.