Gah! Why am I still leading?

Stressfire · October 2, 2012, 02:19 PM

Original load:
4.4 grains Bullseye
125gr MBC Roundnose
OAL 1.13

Supposedly well within specs for both gun and bullet according to Alliant powder manual. But was getting a lot, and I mean a lot, of lead in the barrel. So badly that I had strips of it hanging from the rifling after 150 rounds.

I dropped the powder load significantly and reduced OAL.
Current load:
3.8 grains Bullseye
125gr MBC RN
OAL 1.10

50 rounds and there is still some lead smearing on the lands. If nothing else, it's better than it was, but still not what I would consider acceptable.

I did slug the barrel and got .355 on the button, give or take .0001 or so. A .356 bullet should be fine, shouldn't it?

floydster · October 2, 2012, 04:07 PM

Put some bullets in a baggie, put in a half dozen drops of Alox, swish it around, dump them out on wax paper, let them dry over nite, your leading will be over---I take it this a 9mm???
I use 3.5 grs. of Bullseye pushing the 125 gr. MB--no leading in all three of my 9's.

jepp2 · October 2, 2012, 04:24 PM

Your bullets are pretty hard. I would expect the faster loads to work better.

I would tend to use a slow powder, but that is just me.

Did you clean out all of the copper in the barrel before you started shooting lead? That can cause leading.

Old Grump · October 2, 2012, 07:54 PM

I agree with jepp2, clean your barrel, scour that thing till it's mirror bright and operating room clean. Then go back to your 4.4 grains and I bet you will be fine.

Gerry · October 2, 2012, 08:55 PM

Quote:

I did slug the barrel and got .355 on the button, give or take .0001 or so. A .356 bullet should be fine, shouldn't it?

Not if it's "give .0001"

What kind of gun is it? The lead I shoot through my CZs is .358" - a lot bigger than .356". Also keep in mind that commercial lead bullets often have a harder lube than desirable for handgun applications. The tumble lube suggestion by the other poster (floydster) might actually give you some improvement. Also where is the leading occurring in your barrel? More at the muzzle end or more toward the chamber?

You shouldn't have to put up with leading at all when using lead bullets. I can literally shoot thousands through my barrel without cleaning it, and I still just use a patch when I want it to look extra pretty.

Edward429451 · October 2, 2012, 09:17 PM

Going to a .357 bullet would also help.

oldandslow · October 3, 2012, 03:05 AM

sf, 10/3/12

When I started reloading I had problems with turning a rifled pistol barrel into a smoothbore within twenty rounds. And this was after I thought I'd done everything right. With the help of the gentlemen at www.castboolits.gunloads.com and here I figured out the problem.

First make sure you are measuring your barrel slug with a micrometer and not a caliper. That small bit of inaccuracy in the caliper's measurement can make a big difference.

Second, measure the bullet diameter before loading it (as you have done) and then pull the bullet after reloading it into a cartridge. Often there is enough swaging of the bullet when being pushed into the brass and then crimped that the bullet ends up undersized. My bullets would start out at 1-2 thousandths oversize before loading and end up 1 thousandth of an inch undersize after being pulled, which means I had lots of hot gas spraying past the undersized bullet and causing leading.

The primary problem with leading is usually bullet fit/size. Other factors like lube type, lube groove type (ie, tumble lube vs. conventional grooves), bullet speed and hardness are usually addressed once bullet-barrel fit is optimal. To overcome my bullet swaging problem I just ordered an Accurate Mold Company mold (both .45 and 9mm and 44 special) at two thousandths over barrel diameter and they drop into my brass without sizing (usually at requested size to one-half a thousandths oversize) and leave no leading whatsoever in the barrel. So for my 9mm I use bullets at .357-.358, .45 at .453 and 44 special at .432-423". Good luck and check out the castboolits.gunloads.com site- it's a great site for reloaders.

best wishes- oldandslow

Stressfire · October 3, 2012, 12:09 PM

Quote:

I take it this a 9mm???

Might have helped if I had mentioned the caliber

Yes, it's 9mm. I have been meaning to pick up some Alox, but my local shop always seems to be out

Quote:

Did you clean out all of the copper in the barrel before you started shooting lead?

Yes, the barrel has been soaked and scrubbed within an inch of it's life.

Quote:

What kind of gun is it?

It's a Beretta 92FS

Quote:

Also where is the leading occurring in your barrel? More at the muzzle end or more toward the chamber?

With the 4.4 load it was along the whole length, with 3.8 it seems to be more towards the middle.

Any thoughts on where to find .357 9mm bullets? Just use .357s or what?

Old Grump · October 3, 2012, 01:12 PM

Maybe time for KG12 or Tubbs Final Finish. You should not be leading at all or very little.

Gerry · October 3, 2012, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Any thoughts on where to find .357 9mm bullets? Just use .357s or what?

92fs... oh dear. Some of those barrels apparently slug to .358! I'm afraid you'll have to slug your barrel. The .357" might be useless for you.

Stressfire · October 3, 2012, 04:02 PM

Best I can tell, it slugged right at .355

Will try Alox if I can find any.

Quote:

Maybe time for KG12 or Tubbs Final Finish

What are those?

Any chance it could be the alloy/makeup of the bullets themselves?

Strafer Gott · October 3, 2012, 04:31 PM

I think the only way to get leading at those levels is with unlubed bullets. Can you see lube in the groove? I shoot lead pre-lubed with the blue lube. Leading is never a problem. You must be frustrated as h--- after cleaning that thoroughly, just to get leaded again.

Gerry · October 3, 2012, 04:42 PM

Stressfire, perhaps it's only the 92fs European (Italian) made guns that have such huge bores because they are notorious for having this issue - like 358" which is a heck of a lot bigger than .355". I don't know anyone up here with the US made version because frankly they're not much in demand.

But that makes your leading problem even more mysterious....

Edit: But now other questions now come to mind... like how are you loading these? Are you using crimp or Lee FCD? Have you pulled a bullet and measured it along its base to where it fits into the case?

YARDDOG(1) · October 3, 2012, 05:30 PM

I've shot the MB 125 Smallball in 3 of my 9's without leading at all. That's with Unique ; )
Y/D

FrankenMauser · October 3, 2012, 05:38 PM

Try a slower burn rate powder. (AA#2, Unique, 231, etc.)

chris in va · October 3, 2012, 06:16 PM

Are they keyholing?

Definitely go .357 though, if not .358.

Stressfire · October 3, 2012, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Try a slower burn rate powder. (AA#2, Unique, 231, etc.)

What about 700X?

Quote:

Are they keyholing?

Not at all, straight through. Actually, aside from the lead fouling the 4.4 load was insanely accurate

Quote:

Stressfire, perhaps it's only the 92fs European (Italian) made guns that have such huge bores because they are notorious for having this issue - like 358" which is a heck of a lot bigger than .355". I don't know anyone up here with the US made version because frankly they're not much in demand.

But that makes your leading problem even more mysterious....

Edit: But now other questions now come to mind... like how are you loading these? Are you using crimp or Lee FCD? Have you pulled a bullet and measured it along its base to where it fits into the case?

Mine is the Italian version. To load I am using a straight 3-die RCBS set. Taper crimp only, and it does not appear to be biting into the lead at all.

Old Grump · October 3, 2012, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Maybe time for KG12 or Tubbs Final Finish

Quote:

What are those?

Kg12 is a copper cleaner specifically for barrels with a copper problem.

http://www.kgcoatings.com/cleaning/k...-bore-cleaner/

Tubbs Final Finish is a bore cleaning and polishing kit. Makes a smooth barrel making it hard for lead to grab hold and cling to it. I'm betting looking through it with a naked eye and a light it looks pretty good but a borescope would show you some imperfections you can't see any other way.

http://www.davidtubb.com/final-finish-tms

YARDDOG(1) · October 3, 2012, 08:22 PM

"[FrankenMauser Try a slower burn rate powder. (AA#2, Unique, 231, etc.)]"

That would be a good start, As peak preasure would be as the boolits Is alredy started down barrle more IMO ; )
Y/D

FrankenMauser · October 3, 2012, 11:49 PM

Quote:

What about 700X?

Too fast. It's right up there with Bullseye and Titegroup.

Stressfire · October 4, 2012, 08:11 AM

Did not get a chance to check or do anything last night...darn women and their needs for "us time"

Anyways, will hopefully get to check everything out tonight - should the bullet be getting swaged down during seating, what is done to correct that? Just back off the crimp a bit?

FrankenMauser · October 4, 2012, 02:20 PM

The bullets shouldn't be getting drawn down or shaved during seating.

Make sure you're expanding the cases far enough, and try crimping in a separate step.

Sevens · October 4, 2012, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Try a slower burn rate powder. (AA#2, Unique, 231, etc.)

Good advice, but your suggestion of #2 in here is very much contradictory. Perhaps you meant AA#5?

AA#2 is a scorching fast powder, like Titegroup.

fishbones182 · October 4, 2012, 05:56 PM

I have great luck with tightgroup in everything ive tried it in.

floydster · October 6, 2012, 08:31 AM

For me Titegroup and cast bullets do not mix--powder is too hot.

Smokeyloads

October 2, 2012, 02:19 PM	#1
Stressfire Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2011 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,497	Gah! Why am I still leading? Original load: 4.4 grains Bullseye 125gr MBC Roundnose OAL 1.13 Supposedly well within specs for both gun and bullet according to Alliant powder manual. But was getting a lot, and I mean a lot, of lead in the barrel. So badly that I had strips of it hanging from the rifling after 150 rounds. I dropped the powder load significantly and reduced OAL. Current load: 3.8 grains Bullseye 125gr MBC RN OAL 1.10 50 rounds and there is still some lead smearing on the lands. If nothing else, it's better than it was, but still not what I would consider acceptable. I did slug the barrel and got .355 on the button, give or take .0001 or so. A .356 bullet should be fine, shouldn't it? __________________ "The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank" - Montgomery Scott

October 2, 2012, 07:54 PM	#4
Old Grump Member in memoriam Join Date: April 9, 2009 Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in Posts: 3,144	I agree with jepp2, clean your barrel, scour that thing till it's mirror bright and operating room clean. Then go back to your 4.4 grains and I bet you will be fine. __________________ Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster--

October 3, 2012, 01:12 PM	#9
Old Grump Member in memoriam Join Date: April 9, 2009 Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in Posts: 3,144	Maybe time for KG12 or Tubbs Final Finish. You should not be leading at all or very little. __________________ Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster--

October 3, 2012, 04:42 PM	#13
Gerry Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2010 Location: Canada Posts: 382	Stressfire, perhaps it's only the 92fs European (Italian) made guns that have such huge bores because they are notorious for having this issue - like 358" which is a heck of a lot bigger than .355". I don't know anyone up here with the US made version because frankly they're not much in demand. But that makes your leading problem even more mysterious.... Edit: But now other questions now come to mind... like how are you loading these? Are you using crimp or Lee FCD? Have you pulled a bullet and measured it along its base to where it fits into the case? Last edited by Gerry; October 3, 2012 at 04:59 PM.

October 3, 2012, 05:30 PM	#14
YARDDOG(1) Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: GATOR COUNTRY HA HA HA! Posts: 721	I've shot the MB 125 Smallball in 3 of my 9's without leading at all. That's with Unique ; ) Y/D __________________ There's a GATOR in the bushes & She's Callin my name >Molly Hatchett<

October 2, 2012, 04:07 PM	#2
floydster Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2008 Posts: 472	Put some bullets in a baggie, put in a half dozen drops of Alox, swish it around, dump them out on wax paper, let them dry over nite, your leading will be over---I take it this a 9mm??? I use 3.5 grs. of Bullseye pushing the 125 gr. MB--no leading in all three of my 9's.

October 2, 2012, 04:24 PM	#3
jepp2 Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Loveland, CO Posts: 1,476	Your bullets are pretty hard. I would expect the faster loads to work better. I would tend to use a slow powder, but that is just me. Did you clean out all of the copper in the barrel before you started shooting lead? That can cause leading.

October 2, 2012, 09:17 PM	#6
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Going to a .357 bullet would also help.

October 3, 2012, 03:05 AM	#7
oldandslow Senior Member Join Date: October 2, 2007 Posts: 641	sf, 10/3/12 When I started reloading I had problems with turning a rifled pistol barrel into a smoothbore within twenty rounds. And this was after I thought I'd done everything right. With the help of the gentlemen at www.castboolits.gunloads.com and here I figured out the problem. First make sure you are measuring your barrel slug with a micrometer and not a caliper. That small bit of inaccuracy in the caliper's measurement can make a big difference. Second, measure the bullet diameter before loading it (as you have done) and then pull the bullet after reloading it into a cartridge. Often there is enough swaging of the bullet when being pushed into the brass and then crimped that the bullet ends up undersized. My bullets would start out at 1-2 thousandths oversize before loading and end up 1 thousandth of an inch undersize after being pulled, which means I had lots of hot gas spraying past the undersized bullet and causing leading. The primary problem with leading is usually bullet fit/size. Other factors like lube type, lube groove type (ie, tumble lube vs. conventional grooves), bullet speed and hardness are usually addressed once bullet-barrel fit is optimal. To overcome my bullet swaging problem I just ordered an Accurate Mold Company mold (both .45 and 9mm and 44 special) at two thousandths over barrel diameter and they drop into my brass without sizing (usually at requested size to one-half a thousandths oversize) and leave no leading whatsoever in the barrel. So for my 9mm I use bullets at .357-.358, .45 at .453 and 44 special at .432-423". Good luck and check out the castboolits.gunloads.com site- it's a great site for reloaders. best wishes- oldandslow

October 3, 2012, 04:31 PM	#12
Strafer Gott Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,315	I think the only way to get leading at those levels is with unlubed bullets. Can you see lube in the groove? I shoot lead pre-lubed with the blue lube. Leading is never a problem. You must be frustrated as h--- after cleaning that thoroughly, just to get leaded again.

October 3, 2012, 05:38 PM	#15
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,421	Try a slower burn rate powder. (AA#2, Unique, 231, etc.) __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

October 3, 2012, 06:16 PM	#16
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	Are they keyholing? Definitely go .357 though, if not .358.

October 3, 2012, 08:22 PM	#19
YARDDOG(1) Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: GATOR COUNTRY HA HA HA! Posts: 721	"[FrankenMauser Try a slower burn rate powder. (AA#2, Unique, 231, etc.)]" That would be a good start, As peak preasure would be as the boolits Is alredy started down barrle more IMO ; ) Y/D __________________ There's a GATOR in the bushes & She's Callin my name >Molly Hatchett<

October 4, 2012, 08:11 AM	#21
Stressfire Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2011 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,497	Did not get a chance to check or do anything last night...darn women and their needs for "us time" Anyways, will hopefully get to check everything out tonight - should the bullet be getting swaged down during seating, what is done to correct that? Just back off the crimp a bit? __________________ "The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank" - Montgomery Scott

October 4, 2012, 02:20 PM	#22
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,421	The bullets shouldn't be getting drawn down or shaved during seating. Make sure you're expanding the cases far enough, and try crimping in a separate step. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

October 4, 2012, 05:56 PM	#24
fishbones182 Member Join Date: August 1, 2012 Location: Florida Posts: 98	I have great luck with tightgroup in everything ive tried it in.

October 6, 2012, 08:31 AM	#25
floydster Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2008 Posts: 472	For me Titegroup and cast bullets do not mix--powder is too hot. Smokeyloads

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